Should the UK leave the EU?

[Elerond]

whats problem with low growth of economy, it feels natural

 

It is burden of our debt based economies, where countries have taken debt in hopes to grow their economies, and if those economies don't grow fast enough those debts start to eat from country's capital and people start to be able to buy less and less stuff with money they have (because inflation lowers value of money constantly), as growth goes to pay things that were bought in the past (in some cases countries take new debt faster than their economies grow, which will eventually create situation where country don't have funds to run itself).

[Nonek]

There is quite an...interested outlook in some Commonwealth countries I am informed, who see an exit from Europe as a chance to gain more favourable trade deals and closer market ties with other European countries who are still willing to trade with the UK and its partners. Closer integration with the commonwealth might very well be a viable alternative to Europe, or even more valuable, but there is always quite a risk inherent in dealing with some member states.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if her Majesty and her wastrel brood begin reaffirming old ties and visiting the old colonies, though of course this anti immigration rhetoric would have to be eased. Which could be rather ironic in the circumstances.

[Gorgon]

I doubt very much that a 'better deal' will emerge from trade negotiations. Once the UK leaves they can re enter the common market on their own terms, like Sweden and Iceland for instance. There is no indication that this would better her situation or make up for the losses of leaving. 

 

It's populism pure and simple. The unpopularity of the enormous bureaucracy, the refugee crisis, the sense that jobs are being lost because 'foreigners' who are more attractive to employers are being hired in a number of industries.

 

 They might manage to elect Boris Johnson PM but we are all going to lose on the deal. If it were a pressing matter of principle why haven't they left 10 years ago. 

[Nonek]

I agree mostly, but I would say that a referendum was long overdue and that is part of the problem, when entering the common market we were not told that we would be part of a superstate ruled from Brussels, and if we had been then most probably there would have been a resounding negative vote, even with the poverty of the time. This is of course an evolution and nobodies fault per se, but the electorate should have been consulted far more often in my opinion, as this goes beyond self governance.

 

I also agree with the percieved problems, many of which we will have whether in or out of Europe: Bureaucracy is a constant and even with sweeping reforms Whitehall (and the rest of the Civil Service) remains a bloated beast, we don't (and cannot I suspect) spend enough on border patrols to stop illegal aliens, and employers will always hire those who want to work over the shiftless.

 

As for the Tories this will most probably destroy them for the next election and a few after that, they are already splintering, I just hope that UKIP remains a joke and protest vote, and does not gain any measure of power. Then again usually the electorate are smart enough to only grant UKIP votes when the result will not guarantee them any measure of influence, which is heartening.

 

Edit: An unexplored benefit of European integration that I think should be raised more often is the lack of aggression and warfare which was fairly much a constant every few decades before the Union. Of course no one can say that this is caused by the Union, but this was certainly one of its aims, and to that extent it has succeeded to the benefit of probably the world at large.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Nonek

[majestic]

whats problem with low growth of economy, it feels natural

 

Look at Japan. 25 years of almost zero growth (and sometimes actual shrinking) and a debt to GDP ratio of 150 to 200%. Look what it has brought:

 

Riots on the streets, anarchy, the collapse of infrastructure, massive unemployment rates, women prostituting themselves for a sandwich, the rise of populism both left and right wing... no, wait, that was Greece. Sorry. My bad. I got that mixed up somewhere along my train of thought.

Edited May 31, 2016 by majestic

[HoonDing]

Major difference is that Japan's debts aren't held by foreign creditors.

 

They're still ****ed in the long run because of their dire demographical situation.

[Raithe]

As has been said, if the referendum gives a Yes to staying in the EU, it's likely that Cameron will get ousted as Tory leader. The no-confidence vote he's likely going to have to deal with will certainly have some after-effects to the Tories in general.

[majestic]

Major difference is that Japan's debts aren't held by foreign creditors.

 

They're still ****ed in the long run because of their dire demographical situation.

 

Of course. It's easy to be head over heels in debt if no one comes to collect.

 

Not that the EU could implement something similar anyway. Cutting out the middle man by direct funding via the ECB would upset the poor investment bankers and a whole bunch of shareholders. Can't have that. Might have saved Greece though, who knows. But can't have that either because that would upset mama Merkel in Berlin. :>

[BruceVC]

I have to say the Brexit polls are incredibly close, all major pollsters give results more or less 40% in and 40% out and 20 % undecided....the undecided can really decide of this momentous vote, I dont like those odds 

[Raithe]

See, everyone seems to worry about the economic issues of this, but no-ones really talking about the actual EU governmental process. That's the bit that sticks in my craw at the moment. It pretty much feels as if the average person doesn't actually have any representation in what or how the laws of the EU are made and implemented.

[Gorgon]

 

 

He's a smart guy, You can watch this just to hear his side of the EU debt restructuring story.

[BruceVC]

See, everyone seems to worry about the economic issues of this, but no-ones really talking about the actual EU governmental process. That's the bit that sticks in my craw at the moment. It pretty much feels as if the average person doesn't actually have any representation in what or how the laws of the EU are made and implemented.

Yes, I must recognize I underestimated this whole dislike of the governmental structures that the  EU enforces in the UK

 

I expect people to only be concerned  about the potential  economic impact but I see many UK citizens have raised some valid issues with what you mentioned 

[Oerwinde]

 

 

See, everyone seems to worry about the economic issues of this, but no-ones really talking about the actual EU governmental process. That's the bit that sticks in my craw at the moment. It pretty much feels as if the average person doesn't actually have any representation in what or how the laws of the EU are made and implemented.

Yes, I must recognize I underestimated this whole dislike of the governmental structures that the EU enforces in the UK

 

I expect people to only be concerned about the potential economic impact but I see many UK citizens have raised some valid issues with what you mentioned

The out vote seems to be more about sovereignty than economics Bruce. People want control over their future, and in the EU they don't have that.

[Raithe]

I think that's the key point. It doesn't matter what the benefits or losses are.. it should matter whether I actually get to enjoy a democratic say in my government.  Which, it distinctly feels like I won't if the EU carries on as it is. And note, when I say "my government" I don't mean Britain, so not on that pure sovereignty/independence. If a group gets to pass laws that say what I can or cannot do, establish taxes that I have to pay, and in general acts to control the society around me.. I really, really want a way to vote on that group  that's actually meaningful.

Not a "vote for some vague personage who just seems to be there for PR purposes, while the work and legislation is handled by other people entirely and don't rely on whether I want them there or not".

 

Getting a pat on the head with "You'll be better off economically, and you'll be able to travel within Europe better. Don't worry, we know what you want, we're the smart people here, you can trust us to have your best interests at heart. Honest. We just won't tell you who we are or how we reach our decisions." is not something I'm all that comfortable with.

[BruceVC]

I think that's the key point. It doesn't matter what the benefits or losses are.. it should matter whether I actually get to enjoy a democratic say in my government.  Which, it distinctly feels like I won't if the EU carries on as it is. And note, when I say "my government" I don't mean Britain, so not on that pure sovereignty/independence. If a group gets to pass laws that say what I can or cannot do, establish taxes that I have to pay, and in general acts to control the society around me.. I really, really want a way to vote on that group  that's actually meaningful.

Not a "vote for some vague personage who just seems to be there for PR purposes, while the work and legislation is handled by other people entirely and don't rely on whether I want them there or not".

 

Getting a pat on the head with "You'll be better off economically, and you'll be able to travel within Europe better. Don't worry, we know what you want, we're the smart people here, you can trust us to have your best interests at heart. Honest. We just won't tell you who we are or how we reach our decisions." is not something I'm all that comfortable with.

And I have been thinking about something else that is very relevant to me

 

I am always concerned with events that will weaken the West and the UK  plays an important part as one of the foundations of the West

 

But then I thought, it wont weaken the West if the UK leaves the EU because the UK is still part of NATO and why would leaving the EU weaken the UK resolve and commitment to the principles of Western ideology?

 

This may not seem relevant but it is because some people in EU: In are playing the old " this vote is about the future of the whole EU  " 

 

But lets say the UK does leave, I predict 12-18 months of economic  instability but then things will balance out 

 

So I feel much more comfortable about the whole outcome

 

Raithe also remember my family come from the UK so I have real ties to the English and wont the best for the UK

[Raithe]

[Volourn]

Britain/UK managed to survive just fine (thanks to slavery lol) pre EU. It'll manage post EU just fine 9after a few bumps). I mean, if Isreal can surive if not outright flourish being sorrounding by a ton of enemies.. saurely Britian has nothing to fear right... unless the rest of EU plans to bomb them? then again, knowing how evil and nazish the EU (led by Germany lol) is.. I could see the EU doing everything they can to destory Britian. There's alreayd been threats of ways they can cripple Britain because that is how EVIL the EU and its supporters are. they relish it. They plan for the total destruction of Britain so they can use it as an example to any other country that is thinking of leaving. In fact, for its surival, EU would NEED to destroy Britain.

 

Thgat is why the pro EU contingent is  pushing so ahrd... because they know they would have to go all out in the economic/.social or even outright physical war with Britian... just like the US gov't had to do when the South wanted to leave.

 

Only way they leave is in bodybags. PERIOD.

[Raithe]

Whatever side you're on, this is kind of amusing:

 

[213374U]

See, everyone seems to worry about the economic issues of this, but no-ones really talking about the actual EU governmental process. That's the bit that sticks in my craw at the moment. It pretty much feels as if the average person doesn't actually have any representation in what or how the laws of the EU are made and implemented.

 

Who cares about the democratic process when staying in the EU guarantees economic bliss if its 'recommendations' are followed to a T?

 

something something freedom security something something neither

Edited June 3, 2016 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

Britain/UK managed to survive just fine (thanks to slavery lol) pre EU. It'll manage post EU just fine 9after a few bumps). I mean, if Isreal can surive if not outright flourish being sorrounding by a ton of enemies.. saurely Britian has nothing to fear right... unless the rest of EU plans to bomb them? then again, knowing how evil and nazish the EU (led by Germany lol) is.. I could see the EU doing everything they can to destory Britian. There's alreayd been threats of ways they can cripple Britain because that is how EVIL the EU and its supporters are. they relish it. They plan for the total destruction of Britain so they can use it as an example to any other country that is thinking of leaving. In fact, for its surival, EU would NEED to destroy Britain.

 

Thgat is why the pro EU contingent is  pushing so ahrd... because they know they would have to go all out in the economic/.social or even outright physical war with Britian... just like the US gov't had to do when the South wanted to leave.

 

Only way they leave is in bodybags. PERIOD.

This must be one of the most inaccurate posts you have ever made?

 

You trolling I assume

 

Lets keep it simple....is there one thing in this post that is true?

[Oerwinde]

 

Britain/UK managed to survive just fine (thanks to slavery lol) pre EU. It'll manage post EU just fine 9after a few bumps). I mean, if Isreal can surive if not outright flourish being sorrounding by a ton of enemies.. saurely Britian has nothing to fear right... unless the rest of EU plans to bomb them? then again, knowing how evil and nazish the EU (led by Germany lol) is.. I could see the EU doing everything they can to destory Britian. There's alreayd been threats of ways they can cripple Britain because that is how EVIL the EU and its supporters are. they relish it. They plan for the total destruction of Britain so they can use it as an example to any other country that is thinking of leaving. In fact, for its surival, EU would NEED to destroy Britain.

 

Thgat is why the pro EU contingent is  pushing so ahrd... because they know they would have to go all out in the economic/.social or even outright physical war with Britian... just like the US gov't had to do when the South wanted to leave.

 

Only way they leave is in bodybags. PERIOD.

This must be one of the most inaccurate posts you have ever made?

 

You trolling I assume

 

Lets keep it simple....is there one thing in this post that is true?

 

 

Well, several EU nations have threatened retaliation if the UK leaves. Likely because if they leave they won't be the last.

[Elerond]

 

 

Britain/UK managed to survive just fine (thanks to slavery lol) pre EU. It'll manage post EU just fine 9after a few bumps). I mean, if Isreal can surive if not outright flourish being sorrounding by a ton of enemies.. saurely Britian has nothing to fear right... unless the rest of EU plans to bomb them? then again, knowing how evil and nazish the EU (led by Germany lol) is.. I could see the EU doing everything they can to destory Britian. There's alreayd been threats of ways they can cripple Britain because that is how EVIL the EU and its supporters are. they relish it. They plan for the total destruction of Britain so they can use it as an example to any other country that is thinking of leaving. In fact, for its surival, EU would NEED to destroy Britain.

 

Thgat is why the pro EU contingent is  pushing so ahrd... because they know they would have to go all out in the economic/.social or even outright physical war with Britian... just like the US gov't had to do when the South wanted to leave.

 

Only way they leave is in bodybags. PERIOD.

This must be one of the most inaccurate posts you have ever made?

 

You trolling I assume

 

Lets keep it simple....is there one thing in this post that is true?

 

 

Well, several EU nations have threatened retaliation if the UK leaves. Likely because if they leave they won't be the last.

 

 

Which countries have given such threats?

[Oerwinde]

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

[BruceVC]

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Please can we keep this type of thing in context I appreciate your input on matters but what Volo said is hyperbole and completely lacking in the actual facts 

 

The EU troika and EU leaders dont want the UK to leave because the EU is stronger with the UK being part of it ....this is obvious

 

Merkal and other EU  leaders have already made concessions to Cameron for logical and strategic reasons ...Cameron wouldn't have supported EU:In without them

 

But there  are other things the EU cant or wont comprise on and these reasons could still cause the UK to leave ...

 

But the suggestion that the EU  " wants to destroy the UK  "  is preposterous 

[Volourn]

"This must be one of the most inaccurate posts you have ever made?

 

You trolling I assume

 

Lets keep it simple....is there one thing in this post that is true?"

 

It's ALL true.

 

EU will do everything in its power to destroy Britain if it leaves. It has to. For its very surival. If Britian leaves and it doesn't fall  apart or *gasp*  does better it makes the EU look weak and unneeded. This is why an exited Britian needs to fail for the EU and the EU will do everything it can to help Britian's fall. From breaking/reneging on tretaies, to economic pressure.

 

If you think otherwise you don't get how real politik works.