Political Philosophy in Comics

[HoonDing]

I'm sure Crossed is an allegory on communism.

[Hurlshort]

^ Confirmation bias at work.

 

That seems pretty clear by the way I worded my post.  I guess I should have been more obvious with my disclaimer that I am not a big comic book guy.  

[Rosbjerg]

In many ways Batman is a conservative wet dream, a morally just rich man beating poor criminals and mental paitents to a pulp each night.

All of which due to a failing, overbearing and ultimately impotently corrupt system.

[Raithe]

Why has there never been a movie or book pitting DC heroes vs Marvel heroes? I can't believe THAT has never been though of.

 

They actually got together and did the Amalgam comics.

 

DC and Marvel universes got smashed together, they initially fought, then ended up merged. So you had this new Universe where you had squished together "Batman Wolverine named Dark Claw", a Dr Fate merged with Professor X,  and all sorts along those lines.

[Blarghagh]

Oh yeah, my favourites from that line were Ghost Rider merging with the Flash to become Speed Demon and the always hilarious Lobo the Duck.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oh yeah, my favourites from that line were Ghost Rider merging with the Flash to become Speed Demon and the always hilarious Lobo the Duck.

Actually Speed Demon was a three-way between Flash, Ghost Rider, and Etrigan. Which sounds like some slashfic from a mentally disturbed person when you type it out.

[Oerwinde]

Both companies are jumping on board the diversity train, to varying degrees of success. DC has the rights to the Milestone characters so I don't know why they don't push them instead of making Wally West a black street kid.

 

Marvel has definitely done better with their diversity stuff, with the exception of She Thor, who just makes no sense.

[BruceVC]

Sorry I cant contribute towards this discussion but I have no idea what you guys are talking about 

[Leferd]

Fascist

 

 

Reagan Democrat

 

Papist

 

...Then there's Oliver Queen

Edited April 2, 2016 by Leferd

[Guard Dog]

Both companies are jumping on board the diversity train, to varying degrees of success. DC has the rights to the Milestone characters so I don't know why they don't push them instead of making Wally West a black street kid.

 

Marvel has definitely done better with their diversity stuff, with the exception of She Thor, who just makes no sense.

Isn't spider man a black teenager now?

[Guard Dog]

I was going to make a joke about a transgender superhero but DC beat me to it: http://archive.boston.com/lifestyle/blogs/bostonspirit/2013/04/dc_comics_introduces_first_eve.html

 

Are there any heroes into polygamy? Bestiality? Well Aquaman can control the minds of fish so maybe....

 

[Oerwinde]

 

Both companies are jumping on board the diversity train, to varying degrees of success. DC has the rights to the Milestone characters so I don't know why they don't push them instead of making Wally West a black street kid.

 

Marvel has definitely done better with their diversity stuff, with the exception of She Thor, who just makes no sense.

Isn't spider man a black teenager now?

 

 

There are both now. Miles Morales took over as Spider-Man in the Ultimate Universe after Peter Parker died defending his family from Green Goblin (he took a bullet for Captain America then fought injured). After Secret Wars the new Marvel universe was made up of bits and pieces of other universes, so teen Miles and Adult Peter ended up in the same world. So now Peter is kind of a mentor figure to Miles. Peter is now the millionaire owner of Parker Technologies and is a major player in the superhero world, while Miles is still street level.

[Orogun01]

In many ways Batman is a conservative wet dream, a morally just rich man beating poor criminals and mental paitents to a pulp each night.

All of which due to a failing, overbearing and ultimately impotently corrupt system.

A dumb liberal joke that fails to recognize that Batman himself is a product of that corrupt system and place the onus on him to change society within the confines of his moral code. But then everyone freaks out when Superman does just that.

 

This may be reading too much into it but methinks that you people are just want to be handed free money from rich people whom they believe to be related to the giving tree.

[Rosbjerg]

This may be reading too much into it but methinks that you people are just want to be handed free money from rich people whom they believe to be related to the giving tree.

 

A common misconception as well.. It's the other way around actually. We're among the richest 10% in the world, in truth I think we give far too little back (I'm sure Batman would agree, given his business practices). It's the fool that think his fortunes are entirely his own and jealously keeps his neighboor from achieving the same, for fear of diluting his own.

[Orogun01]

 

This may be reading too much into it but methinks that you people are just want to be handed free money from rich people whom they believe to be related to the giving tree.

 

A common misconception as well.. It's the other way around actually. We're among the richest 10% in the world, in truth I think we give far too little back (I'm sure Batman would agree, given his business practices). It's the fool that think his fortunes are entirely his own and jealously keeps his neighboor from achieving the same, for fear of diluting his own.

 

I still don't see how just giving out money is good. Most rich people that want to give back to the community set up funds or give donations, to help people with the will to accomplish. It is equally as stupid to expect someone whom you don't even know to act as your surrogate father. Giving that inclination i'm not surprised that the left falls prey to communism, not because of the proletariat but because of spoiled middle class kids.

[Rosbjerg]

Which is of course the way to do it, the west learned long ago that they are the only one to benefit when simply giving stuff away. As Kreia would say, you sap the strength of people you 'help' in this fashion, making them dependable.

 

Social liberalism is often miscredited with the notion of just taking and giving, but it's rather the idea of having a government that helps to ensure it's easier for everyone to participate equally. Just as conservatism is about making sure that the individual has maximum freedom to do as he or she pleases, whilst not limiting other's freedom, with as little input from systems as possible. 

 

It's just that both ideas, which are great in and on themselves, are hijacked by idiots.

 

In many ways I've always seen Superman and Batman as a kinda crude expression of both ideas, as you say Batman is as much a product of said corruption - but so is Capitalism and he is in many ways a pure capitalist - Need leading to action. In it's darkest form dogmatic, borderline fascist and violent - but when it works, extremely creative, fluid and adaptive - "always with a plan"

 

While Superman represents the unshakable, almost unattainable ideal, that we are fundamentally better than the sum of our parts and true strength comes by standing together behind an ideal, not by working for selfish gains. The dark side of that is suffocating and inflexible doctrine and the corruption of power - but when it works it's unbeatable.

[Orogun01]

Which is of course the way to do it, the west learned long ago that they are the only one to benefit when simply giving stuff away. As Kreia would say, you sap the strength of people you 'help' in this fashion, making them dependable.

 

Social liberalism is often miscredited with the notion of just taking and giving, but it's rather the idea of having a government that helps to ensure it's easier for everyone to participate equally. Just as conservatism is about making sure that the individual has maximum freedom to do as he or she pleases, whilst not limiting other's freedom, with as little input from systems as possible. 

 

It's just that both ideas, which are great in and on themselves, are hijacked by idiots.

 

In many ways I've always seen Superman and Batman as a kinda crude expression of both ideas, as you say Batman is as much a product of said corruption - but so is Capitalism and he is in many ways a pure capitalist - Need leading to action. In it's darkest form dogmatic, borderline fascist and violent - but when it works, extremely creative, fluid and adaptive - "always with a plan"

 

While Superman represents the unshakable, almost unattainable ideal, that we are fundamentally better than the sum of our parts and true strength comes by standing together behind an ideal, not by working for selfish gains. The dark side of that is suffocating and inflexible doctrine and the corruption of power - but when it works it's unbeatable.

Interesting perspective, yet there is a dogmatic nature to both characters that contradicts your view. Batman whilst misguided in a practical sense, still retains a tentative hold on his sanity by adhering to a code of not killing. There is the running theme that Batman holds back his potential which makes him a bit more altruistic than your typical capitalist which trough separation to the rest of the world has no emotional attachments to it His universe is self contained and he expects the rest of the world to be the same; Batman's perspective is broader, being unable to ignore the consequences of his actions and the strain it puts on his moral code.

 

Superman on the other hand despite being inherently better, chooses simplicity and almost yearns for it. It is the lack of a sense of belonging or how the adage goes "It is lonely at the top". A long standing critique of Superman is his alien nature, not because of actually being an alien but because of his inherent superiority which separates him from the mere mortals. His archetype is closer to the Greek heroes who had a connection to the divine rather than of it actually being humanist.

 

I find your view that he is made better by an ideal mistaken; he is simply better by genetics, and more fitting to Batman whose entire existence has been defined by a singular moment and the belief it generated.

 

Both seem to be very bound by the personal consequences of their existence which in no way reflect the consequences of the belief you claim they represent.

[Guard Dog]

Great post!

[BruceVC]

Great post!

GD how come you have never said that about all my great posts ........waaaaaaaaaaah  

[Guard Dog]

 

Great post!

GD how come you have never said that about all my great posts ........waaaaaaaaaaah  

 

Orogun just 2 posts made a pretty decent analysis on the motivations and psychology of two comic book superheroes that, for one brief moment, actually made me take them seriously as characters. All the comics I have read and the hundreds of hours of Batman & Superman movies I've sat through never managed to do that.  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Great post!

GD how come you have never said that about all my great posts ........waaaaaaaaaaah  

 

Orogun just 2 posts made a pretty decent analysis on the motivations and psychology of two comic book superheroes that, for one brief moment, actually made me take them seriously as characters. All the comics I have read and the hundreds of hours of Batman & Superman movies I've sat through never managed to do that.  

 

 

Somebody hasn't read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel 

[BruceVC]

 

 

Great post!

GD how come you have never said that about all my great posts ........waaaaaaaaaaah  

 

Orogun just 2 posts made a pretty decent analysis on the motivations and psychology of two comic book superheroes that, for one brief moment, actually made me take them seriously as characters. All the comics I have read and the hundreds of hours of Batman & Superman movies I've sat through never managed to do that.  

 

But think about all  the exciting discussions you and I have had about topics like Gay rights....that must be on a similar level to Orogs post?

 

[Gorgon]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/a-rare-interview-frank-miller-871654

 

 

I think it's going to be a great time to be a cartoonist. You can't come up with a greater buffoon than Donald Trump. The fact that he thinks he can be president of the United States is one the best jokes I've read in a long time. At least I hope.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

Great post!

GD how come you have never said that about all my great posts ........waaaaaaaaaaah  

 

Orogun just 2 posts made a pretty decent analysis on the motivations and psychology of two comic book superheroes that, for one brief moment, actually made me take them seriously as characters. All the comics I have read and the hundreds of hours of Batman & Superman movies I've sat through never managed to do that.  

 

But think about all  the exciting discussions you and I have had about topics like Gay rights....that must be on a similar level to Orogs post?

 

 

I already take those discussions seriously. We talking about comic books here. If you can say something that for one second actually makes me think about a comic book character you've done something. 

[Rosbjerg]

Interesting perspective, yet there is a dogmatic nature to both characters that contradicts your view. Batman whilst misguided in a practical sense, still retains a tentative hold on his sanity by adhering to a code of not killing. There is the running theme that Batman holds back his potential which makes him a bit more altruistic than your typical capitalist which trough separation to the rest of the world has no emotional attachments to it His universe is self contained and he expects the rest of the world to be the same; Batman's perspective is broader, being unable to ignore the consequences of his actions and the strain it puts on his moral code.

 

But couldn't that be said for capitalism as well? The argument always goes that the system has been corrupted by red tape, sorta like how Batman could never work as a cop within the system of law. I don't disagree with your analysis, but rather I don't see how it doesn't work for capitalism.

Your typical capitalist would, in accordance with the ideal (as Batman is), react in unison with reality, he has a very real attachment to the world and must also see the broader consequences (invisible hand). Morality however is true enough, just another cog in the wheel, if it is needed it is heeded, if not... Whereas Batman must dogmatically adhere to morality as a guiding principle to all of his other actions, in that sense he's more of a social liberal.

Therefore the 'crude' comparison.

 

Superman on the other hand despite being inherently better, chooses simplicity and almost yearns for it. It is the lack of a sense of belonging or how the adage goes "It is lonely at the top". A long standing critique of Superman is his alien nature, not because of actually being an alien but because of his inherent superiority which separates him from the mere mortals. His archetype is closer to the Greek heroes who had a connection to the divine rather than of it actually being humanist.

 

I find your view that he is made better by an ideal mistaken; he is simply better by genetics, and more fitting to Batman whose entire existence has been defined by a singular moment and the belief it generated.

 

Both seem to be very bound by the personal consequences of their existence which in no way reflect the consequences of the belief you claim they represent.

 

I would still argue that Superman true strength flows from his ideals, not his physical prowess. Doomsday is (and in reality all of Superman's greatest arch enemies are) used as contrast to illustrate this, as he is capable of being/becoming physically stronger and ultimately more adaptable, he is pure evolution of strength whereas Superman is the pure expression of idealism. Superman is also stagnant, which is in reality his greatest weakness and therefore it is apt to compare him to Greek mythological heroes or even Norse mythology - unable to escape themselves and their fate as they are ultimately bound by laws that supercede even themselves (with power comes responsibility), but he is seperated from humanity much more so from his actions than his power. 

 

As Tarantino's analysis of Superman in Kill Bill - Superman is alien because he alienates himself from humanity by choice.