(3.02) Novice's Suffering + Reaping Knives

[Nafboog]

Just logged in 3.02. It seems that this synergy (not sure it was ever intended) is now gone. I think most people probably expected this as it was pretty powerful. My barb build now only shows damage from the knives.

 

I haven't tested it with a Monk's suffering yet, but I imagine it's gone for them too...

[aartz]

Heya Nafboog,

 

It indeed also no longer works with Monk's Transcendent Suffering. I fought pretty hard to keep it in but the synergy was deemed too powerful, so we took it out. =(

[AndreaColombo]

Thank you for siding with the little guys, aartz :D

[hilfazer]

Novice Suffering had a chance to be useful by working with Spiritshift. But no, it doesn't.

 

Novice Suffering had a second chance to be useful by working with Reaping Knives. But no, it doesn't.

 

Now it needs a third chance.

[Reent]

It had a chance to be good with ciphers, since novices suffering has extremely high base damage and every multiplicator is really strong, but everything but might only applies to the base damage (5-8 ) not the bonus novices suffering damage (19,5 at the end i think)... so +40 % damage is +2-3,2 damage... pretty worthless... if it worked correct if would be +9,8-11 bonus damage, making a novices suffering cipher pretty fun (hitting for something like 44 damage with 20 might)

 

third chance is done...

Edited March 30, 2016 by Reent

[hilfazer]

Damn it ... my hope is lost then.

[Elric Galad]

Recurring problem in all RPG : how to balance unarmed attacks ?

 

They eventually balanced them quite well for monks themselves (unarmed does extremely high damage that no weapon can imitate, even if thet lack specials).

 

It's a minor pity the cross class talent is totally crappy. But it's still a pity.

[Boeroer]

When the cross class talents came out I tested an unarmed rogue. His damage bonuses from sneak and dethblows resulted in really small numbers - whereas a monk's (lower) damage bonuses resulted in much higher. I found out that's because Transcendent Suffering I alters the BASE damage of unarmed attacks. So all damage mods that unarmed monks get add a good amount of flat damage.

Novices Suffering however only adds damage on top of the whimpy base (the normal unarmed damage for everyone except monks). So all those fancy damage mods only apply to that whimpy base.

 

A simple solution (I thought) would be that Novice's Suffering - like Transcendent Suffering - alters the base damage when you take it. The level scaling would only add damage on top of that base - like Transcentend Suffering does.

 

But either it's very complicated to do that (code-wise) OR it's intended to be supercrappy. It's sad, because an unarmed Pit-Fighter and such builds will always be bad interms of melee damage.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

The knives have 15-20 base damage which is higher than 2h damage. You lose only the enchantment bonuses but all other melee bonuses still apply. Rogues can deal 50dmg/hit with deathblows, while a barb can deal 25-30dmg/hit to multiple enemies very fast, no matter what DR they have.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Which sucks because Monks are not the only warrior type to kick ass with a fist. I guess they didn't want to make Monks obsolete if the other classes could play as unarmed warriors?

[Elric Galad]

Maybe, but that's not very smart because Transcendent suffering is nice but is certainly not the main (powergaming) why you want a monk. I'm not even sure it worths a talent. Magic weapon are so good (Durgan, lash, draining, stunning...), even when compared to unarmed monks crazy damage.

 

You take a monk because of some of their wound spender (Torment's reach, force of anguish, swift strike, dichotomous soul) or accumulator (Iron or Turning Wheel). And also excellent base stats.

[Boeroer]

Absolutely right. Transcentend Suffering is nice because fists become viable and you don't have to pick a weapon as a monk to be good. But nothing more. 

[Blunderboss]

Sadly Cross Class talents are mostly crap , like 15% bonus only from Aprentice Sneak Attack is a joke , same with Novice Sufering and few others not even worth mentioning like misiles thing

[Boeroer]

Actually - the missiles thing is quite ok if you have a character that uses Penetrating Shot and maybe also Ryona's Vembraces anyway. The damage is quite good then - and it has two different damage types. Also works with Sneak Attack and Deathblows. And the range ist the highest in the game (15m). And it's 1/encounter - like a weaker Spell Matery for Minor Missiles - just lass damge. But you can have this at lvl 1 alreay. I often use it out of stealth as an alpha strike to weaken a squishy target like a caster - from a great distance.

 

Aspirant's Mark is great. Especially on characters who have high ACC from the start. It is a great alpha strike debuff for every encounter.

 

Outlander's Frenzy is good - especially for ranged chars. 25% Speed boost 1/encounter, including 12% more dmg. Great for bow or implement users. It can be used to negate the speed loss of Vicious Aim for example. Together they give you a little bit of bonus speed, a lot more ACC and +32% ranged damage.

 

Enigma's Charm is ok. Although I never used this because there are enough items with Whiper of Treason or Dominate. But I can see how you could build a nice "mindbender" char who isn't a cipher.

 

Veteran's Recovery is good. Solid choice for a frontliner. A chanter for example with this and his own regeneration talents (Ancient Memory, Beloved Spirits) can get a crazy high regeneration. But also any other class can combine an item like Belt of Bountiful Healing with the Resting Bonus and get great regeneration.

 

Apprentice's Sneak Attack's bonus could be a bit higher. 25% would be nice.

 

Gallant's Focus is ok - it stacks with Weapon Focus.

 

The Radiance heals a least and scales with level. And against vessels it does good damage. I can imagine a vessel-bane build where this is useful.

 

Novice Suffering is just lame.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Mmmm, sneak attack works on missile spells ? Of course, I should have think in it. It's quite logical. (And deathblows work on every kind of spell...)

 

25% sneak attack would be OP IMHO. It's hard to find 15% damages on a talent, conditional or not (except for cipher biting but that's just a scaling of his base trait). Endgame, it's pretty much always active. I just avoid it early game.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Blades of Vanatar]

Gauntlets should of been added as a weapon addons for unarmed attacks. Spiked fist Dwarven Gladiator build in an armor with spikes jutting out of the armor would of had a really cool look to it...

Edited March 30, 2016 by Blades of Vanatar

[Boeroer]

Special gauntlets/gloves for unarmed attacks would be nice. Like the Pitfighter Gloves from Legend of Grimrock.

[hilfazer]

Aspirant's Mark is great. Especially on characters who have high ACC from the start. It is a great alpha strike debuff for every encounter.

 

 

Apprentice's Sneak Attack's bonus could be a bit higher. 25% would be nice.

 

Aspirant Mark surely is great. It's numbers are either at 80% or 100% of original spell's values and it's per encounter rather than per rest, making it potentially better than druid's Mark! 

 

OTOH there's Apprentice's Sneak Attack with pathetic 30% of original ability's power. Most, if not all, other cross class abilities have between 67% and 80% power in some of their values and 100% in others. Apprentice's Sneak Attack needs to be like 35%-40% to damage to match other cross class talents.

[Elric Galad]

Come on, all class base traits are far from equal. If you consider Fighter vs Rogue for example : at start Rogue trades Constant Recovery, 2hp/lvl, health and 15 Deflection against sneak attack ! It's pretty obvious that Sneak Attack is far superior to Constant Recovery !

 

Base traits like Sneak Attack (or Carnage) should never been compared to abilities, some base traits just don't play in the same league.

 

Compare it to 2h style : same bonus, both are conditional. 2h bonus works as soon as you take a 2h, sneak attack works also with ranged weapons or even missile spell (yes Pallegina, it works). I think it's balanced.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Blunderboss]

15% is too lame , assuming u can get more from stacking survival , so lame .

First of all u dont just get 15% more damage, enemy needs to be debuffed and this becomes situational benefit so comparing this to fighter ability that works all the time is just wrong .

Edited March 31, 2016 by Blunderboss

[AndreaColombo]

^ but it stacks with all other Fighter abilities and works in combo with some of them. It's not actually that bad on DPS characters once all other DPS talents are taken.

[theBalthazar]

OTOH there's Apprentice's Sneak Attack with pathetic 30% of original ability's power. Most, if not all, other cross class abilities have between 67% and 80% power in some of their values and 100% in others. Apprentice's Sneak Attack needs to be like 35%-40% to damage to match other cross class talents.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Don't forget, all of you : One talent is one talent... So, the - equal cost- of each is important.

 

Apprentice should be higher. He need a special effect to work (an affliction... don't forget...)

 

Scion of flame = 20 % fire damage. = No condition.

 

Apprentice = 15 % of base damage. = affliction require.

 

During this time, Aspirant mark reduce the deflexion by 8. A quick power. 80 % of original power.

Edited March 31, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Elric Galad]

How much weapon would get a bonus from scion of flame exactly ?

 

1 !

 

Durance staff.

 

And of course fire lash. But 20% x 25% is just a 5% bonus.

 

Honnestly scion of flames is far more conditional for martial class than apprentice sneak attack.

 

Pretending apprentice should be 80% of sneak attack is being quite blind about how class are designed.

[Boeroer]

You forgot Firebrand. But Durane's Staff with Scion of Flame on a rogue is not bad at all. If I recall correctly, the 20% bonus of Scion of Flame applies to the damage dealt. So it's not a lame +20% dmg mod like Savage Attack and others, but it's a bonus that multiplies the damage you dealt instead of adds +20% to base damage.  

 

Spirit of Decay works with Bittercut (and you can have 2 of them). This maybe the best combination since you can also put a corrosive lash on it. A dual wielding figher, rogue or Bleak Walker with this can be quite the show.

 

Heart of the Storm for Stormcaller. That one is obvious.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Sure but my initial point is :

 

Does Sneak Attack for rogue cost 1 ability point ? No.

 

So why people compare it with things that costs 1 ability point ?

 

You're right about Stormcaller (or Bittercut). But that's just 1 (2) specific build.

 

 

Maybe Apprentice Sneak attack could be buffed a bit, but I won't be comfortable with this till Rogue get buffed

Edited March 31, 2016 by Elric Galad