hilfazer Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Also paladins got their deflection lowered to 20. 1 Vancian =/= per rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Well, the main argument was that fighters were better tanks than paladins. Then I made my first video showing how the paladin can tank and kill the adra dragon alone (people considered at that time it was impossible to tank the adra dragon and the only way to kill it solo was using a petrify trap). PS. The ranger was also considered the weakest class and I decided to show in a video he can also solo the adra dragon without traps. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Now the rogue is considered to be the weakest class - please do new video! Edited March 26, 2016 by Boeroer 2 Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Now the rogue is considered to be the weakest class - please do new video! For solo or in a party? The barbarian is certainly weaker solo... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. Killed them even without scrolls, next time I'll try also to kill them slower... HA! Good Fun! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. Killed them even without scrolls, next time I'll try also to kill them slower... HA! Good Fun! You need to kill them, rez them and then kill them again. I think the current state of Paladins and Fighters are pretty good. At the earliest levels Fighters are at the top of the heap with their highest base deflection (1o higher than a Pally with base Faith and Conviction), better accuracy (30 vs 25) and the power of fighter regen, especially at low levels. As the Paladin gets better support abilities like the exhortations, Fighters can double down on defensive abililities. Damage wise a Fighter will be ahead of a Paladin with auto attacks due to Armored Grace until level 13 when Sacred Immolation comes into play. Old Defender was just so good that it was hard to not build around it. There are more options now which is good. Paladins make the team better, as individuals the Fighter is better (until Sacred Immolation) I need to run a Fighter 3.0 through and see how they are now. With Charge I could probably make a Juggernaut Fighter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. Killed them even without scrolls, next time I'll try also to kill them slower... HA! Good Fun! *sigh* https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79181-paladin-solo-vs-adra-dragon-potd/ killing solo has always been more a display o' how to exploit holes/mistakes in the system than anything else. am not doubting folks has found new and curious holes, but you didn't convince folks that paladins were better than fighters at tanking. the main purpose o' a tank, after all, is to absorb damage and hold aggro so that the other party members can more safely heal or dps or whatever. the solo videos o' a 30 second exploit kill o' the adra dragon were no more proof o' a paladin's relative tanky power than the rogue trap exploit videos were showing how incredible were rouges at dps. we can do more links to old threads. show folks, even folks posting in this thread, who were asking for more tankiness and dps from the poe paladin. luckily, the obsidians largely ignored such requests. instead, the paladin actual had their tankability reduced, but their capacity to support increased. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerekKruger Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I think the current state of Paladins and Fighters are pretty good. At the earliest levels Fighters are at the top of the heap with their highest base deflection (1o higher than a Pally with base Faith and Conviction)... Isn't a Paladin's base deflection 20, so with whatever the base bonus Faith and Conviction gives (used to be +5 but I have a feeling it dropped some) the difference is less than 10 isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. Killed them even without scrolls, next time I'll try also to kill them slower... HA! Good Fun! *sigh* https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79181-paladin-solo-vs-adra-dragon-potd/ killing solo has always been more a display o' how to exploit holes/mistakes in the system than anything else. am not doubting folks has found new and curious holes, but you didn't convince folks that paladins were better than fighters at tanking. the main purpose o' a tank, after all, is to absorb damage and hold aggro so that the other party members can more safely heal or dps or whatever. the solo videos o' a 30 second exploit kill o' the adra dragon were no more proof o' a paladin's relative tanky power than the rogue trap exploit videos were showing how incredible were rouges at dps. we can do more links to old threads. show folks, even folks posting in this thread, who were asking for more tankiness and dps from the poe paladin. luckily, the obsidians largely ignored such requests. instead, the paladin actual had their tankability reduced, but their capacity to support increased. HA! Good Fun! Here are more actual ones: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83566-solo-paladin-vs-dragons-v203/?p=1762655 You say mistakes, holes, exploits to solo? I say knowledge, tactics, planning. PS. I guess in your book Sacred Immolation isn't dps, it's just support... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. Killed them even without scrolls, next time I'll try also to kill them slower... HA! Good Fun! *sigh* https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79181-paladin-solo-vs-adra-dragon-potd/ killing solo has always been more a display o' how to exploit holes/mistakes in the system than anything else. am not doubting folks has found new and curious holes, but you didn't convince folks that paladins were better than fighters at tanking. the main purpose o' a tank, after all, is to absorb damage and hold aggro so that the other party members can more safely heal or dps or whatever. the solo videos o' a 30 second exploit kill o' the adra dragon were no more proof o' a paladin's relative tanky power than the rogue trap exploit videos were showing how incredible were rouges at dps. we can do more links to old threads. show folks, even folks posting in this thread, who were asking for more tankiness and dps from the poe paladin. luckily, the obsidians largely ignored such requests. instead, the paladin actual had their tankability reduced, but their capacity to support increased. HA! Good Fun! Here are more actual ones: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83566-solo-paladin-vs-dragons-v203/?p=1762655 You say mistakes, holes, exploits to solo? I say knowledge, tactics, planning. PS. I guess in your book Sacred Immolation isn't dps, it's just support... *groan* "Well, the main argument was that fighters were better tanks than paladins. Then I made my first video showing how the paladin can tank and kill the adra dragon alone " as you can see from our link to your shared video, your First Video had negligible impact on the argument, and for good reasons. was gimmicky and did little save spawn priest and wizard videos showing how to exploit similar holes in the rules. your subsequent links is from 2.03... and sacred immolation? december 2015? the "main argument" were dead at that point. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 The original question was "pc-vs-hired-pally" by the way. 1 Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) *groan* "Well, the main argument was that fighters were better tanks than paladins. Then I made my first video showing how the paladin can tank and kill the adra dragon alone " as you can see from our link to your shared video, your First Video had negligible impact on the argument, and for good reasons. was gimmicky and did little save spawn priest and wizard videos showing how to exploit similar holes in the rules. your subsequent links is from 2.03... and sacred immolation? december 2015? the "main argument" were dead at that point. HA! Good Fun! Heh, I'm not sure you're qualified to say what impact my video had... However I'm sure nobody was able to come with a video doing the same with a fighter... PS. The 2.03 links aren't about the "main argument", are about your "argument" - ie being able to solo dragons because of scrolls... I was hoping you'll point another mistake, hole, exploit, etc... Edited March 27, 2016 by Kaylon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 I think the current state of Paladins and Fighters are pretty good. At the earliest levels Fighters are at the top of the heap with their highest base deflection (1o higher than a Pally with base Faith and Conviction)... Isn't a Paladin's base deflection 20, so with whatever the base bonus Faith and Conviction gives (used to be +5 but I have a feeling it dropped some) the difference is less than 10 isn't it? Fighters got a +5 bonus to deflection so they start at 35, Paladins get 20 + Faith & Conviction which I believe is 5 for 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 *groan* "Well, the main argument was that fighters were better tanks than paladins. Then I made my first video showing how the paladin can tank and kill the adra dragon alone " as you can see from our link to your shared video, your First Video had negligible impact on the argument, and for good reasons. was gimmicky and did little save spawn priest and wizard videos showing how to exploit similar holes in the rules. your subsequent links is from 2.03... and sacred immolation? december 2015? the "main argument" were dead at that point. HA! Good Fun! Heh, I'm not sure you're qualified to say what impact my video had... However I'm sure nobody was able to come with a video doing the same with a fighter... PS. The 2.03 links aren't about the "main argument", are about your "argument" - ie being able to solo dragons because of scrolls... I was hoping you'll point another mistake, hole, exploit, etc... one reason why we posted the link to the video is so you and others could see the actual impact on posters. am not certain what sorta emoticon is appropriate at this point. am also not quite sure what your postscript is 'posed to prove. your 2.03 links were 6 months and multiple builds removed... including a freaking expansion. is kinda apples and oranges. many changes to fighters, paladins, and other classes occurred to alter the discussion, and is still hardly meaningful to the impact o' your "first video" claims. *zoom* but heck, we recall similar arguments from folks who thought their 30 second solo bard v. firkragg battles proved something 'bout the overall usefulness and power o' bg2 bards. find a way to solo a boss with a hybrid class/character has never been particularly meaningful, but every game produces such... proof. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerekKruger Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Fighters got a +5 bonus to deflection so they start at 35, Paladins get 20 + Faith & Conviction which I believe is 5 for 25. Wait, they do? I just rolled a level 1 fighter and he had 30 deflection. Am I missing something? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlesticks Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) You're not missing anything. A Fighter's base Deflection is 30. It used to be 25, but got buffed by five points in 2.03. Paladins used to have 25 Deflection as well, but then it was nerfed to 20. Currently, a Paladin with maximised Faith and Conviction and the Deep Faith talent will get +10 Deflection (putting him or her on the same level as a Fighter) and +20 to all other defences. Faith and Conviction's bonus used to bigger before 3.0 came out, but I don't know if the recent nerf is intended or a bug. Edited March 27, 2016 by fiddlesticks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Woops, I was wrong about the 35 base deflection, it is only 30 deflection which is 5 higher than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) HA! Good Fun! Heh... The only thing I see is you don't have any arguments and you keep answering beside the point. It's irrelevant if my videos had or not an impact... It's irrelevant if people consider soloing meaningful... It's irrelevant if other classes are also able to solo the dragon... The only relevant thing is the paladin was and still is able to stay toe to toe with the strongest enemies and slay them, something that other classes aren't able to do for a reason that keeps eluding you. Edited March 27, 2016 by Kaylon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Darkholme Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 HA! Good Fun! Heh... The only thing I see is you don't have any arguments and you keep answering beside the point. It's irrelevant if my videos had or not an impact... It's irrelevant if people consider soloing meaningful... It's irrelevant if other classes are also able to solo the dragon... The only relevant thing is the paladin was and still is able to stay toe to toe with the strongest enemies and slay them, something that other classes aren't able to do for a reason that keeps eluding you. Even though I really agree with many of Gromnir's opinions I totally see Kaylon's point here. The latest Adra/Alpine solos have not happened due to any cheesy exploits but simple buffing up a paladin via potions and then meleeing the **** outta them. Only the paladin could ever do that in a manner that you only can call superior to other classes. 1 My twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/victorcreed_twitch My youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/VictorCreedGaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennisgolfboll Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir is right. Those solo videos just shows the game rules being exploited in a way that was never intended. Which is why limited use items always are very problemtic for game balance. But people keep insisting on make games with a ton potions, food, scrolls and other consumables...leading to a complete break down of all game balance It is also terrible storytelling to see a hero eat 7 dishes of food before fighting a dragon. Reading lots of scrolls in a fight, drinking many potions. Just imagine a heavy weight fighter in a title bout visiting 7 restaurants before and drinking colas throughout a round and reading magazines. What a complete joke Edited March 28, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Darkholme Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 the video did convince people that scrolls could be exploited... as traps were exploitable at release. you did encourage folks to do similar videos o' priests and mages n' such. the tank-worthiness o' a class is maybe not best illustrated in a video in which one SOLO kills a boss in ~ 30 seconds. such doesn't so much show strength o' a class, but rather a weakness o' the rules. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir is right. Those solo videos just shows the game rules being exploited in a way that was never intended. Which is why limited use items always are very problemtic for game balance. But people keep insisting on make games with a ton potions, food, scrolls and other consumables...leading to a complete break down of all game balance It is also terrible storytelling to see a hero eat 7 dishes of food before fighting a dragon. Reading lots of scrolls in a fight, drinking many potions. Just imagine a heavy weight fighter in a title bout visiting 7 restaurants before and drinking colas throughout a round and reading magazines. What a complete joke Serious or trolling? I don't know of any game that doesn't rely on the same, if not very similar mechanics. Only exceptions are games that don't even resemble a RPG. My twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/victorcreed_twitch My youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/VictorCreedGaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderboss Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 you tell ur own story in rpg games , if u choose to eat 7 dishes before fighting dragon well thats ur story . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylon Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Gromnir is right. Those solo videos just shows the game rules being exploited in a way that was never intended. Which is why limited use items always are very problemtic for game balance. But people keep insisting on make games with a ton potions, food, scrolls and other consumables...leading to a complete break down of all game balance It is also terrible storytelling to see a hero eat 7 dishes of food before fighting a dragon. Reading lots of scrolls in a fight, drinking many potions. Just imagine a heavy weight fighter in a title bout visiting 7 restaurants before and drinking colas throughout a round and reading magazines. What a complete joke Blaming people because they're using the tools at their disposal is a joke. If the game isn't realistic or immersive or whatever floats your boat... you should complain to developpers about their design choices. Heh... If food increasing abilities would exist in reality I'm sure every heavy weight fighter would come with their bellies full before each fight and nobody would find it ridiculous. Edited March 28, 2016 by Kaylon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennisgolfboll Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Gromnir is right. Those solo videos just shows the game rules being exploited in a way that was never intended. Which is why limited use items always are very problemtic for game balance. But people keep insisting on make games with a ton potions, food, scrolls and other consumables...leading to a complete break down of all game balance It is also terrible storytelling to see a hero eat 7 dishes of food before fighting a dragon. Reading lots of scrolls in a fight, drinking many potions. Just imagine a heavy weight fighter in a title bout visiting 7 restaurants before and drinking colas throughout a round and reading magazines. What a complete joke Blaming people because they're using the tools at their disposal is a joke.If the game isn't realistic or immersive or whatever floats your boat... you should complain to developpers about their design choices. Heh... If food increasing abilities would exist in reality I'm sure every heavy weight fighter would come with their bellies full before each fight and nobody would find it ridiculous. Im not blaming you for exploiting it. Its all about having fun. Im just saying, hopefully, obsidian didnt intend for such a completely immersive breaking spam to be possible and that in the future consumables will be more limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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