Why Communism Is Coming Back, and Guaranteed Basic Income Will Be Inevitable

Hiro Protagonist · March 21, 2016

Wow, oby posted something that actually has truth in it. Human rights organisations here are now lobbying for the removal of "Humana-Boxes" which are large containers that are located at a lot of places in the Netherlands where you can put clothes and other fabrics that you want to donate, because sending all those clothes there has absolutely destroyed the clothing industry in the areas it goes to and left it worse off. Sometimes charity isn't.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/spiegel-interview-with-african-economics-expert-for-god-s-sake-please-stop-the-aid-a-363663.html

SPIEGEL: If the World Food Program didn't do anything, the people would starve.

Shikwati: I don't think so. In such a case, the Kenyans, for a change, would be forced to initiate trade relations with Uganda or Tanzania, and buy their food there. This type of trade is vital for Africa. It would force us to improve our own infrastructure, while making national borders -- drawn by the Europeans by the way -- more permeable. It would also force us to establish laws favoring market economy.

SPIEGEL: In the West, there are many compassionate citizens wanting to help Africa. Each year, they donate money and pack their old clothes into collection bags ...

Shikwati: ... and they flood our markets with that stuff.

Shikwati: Why do we get these mountains of clothes? No one is freezing here. Instead, our tailors lose their livlihoods. They're in the same position as our farmers. No one in the low-wage world of Africa can be cost-efficient enough to keep pace with donated products. In 1997, 137,000 workers were employed in Nigeria's textile industry. By 2003, the figure had dropped to 57,000. The results are the same in all other areas where overwhelming helpfulness and fragile African markets collide.

BruceVC · March 21, 2016

Oh no.... it has already begun: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/03/18/domino-pizza-delivery-drone-hits-road/?intcmp=hphz12

I'd like to see that little S.O.B get a pizza down MY road!

Not sure if you joking but why would a drone controlled by a pizza franchise that is delivering pizza be an issue?

Its designed to also reach more inaccessible areas in the USA....so more people can eat pizza than ever before, of course this can be seen as a negative but I am not talking about people abusing pizza :geek:

Guard Dog · March 21, 2016

Oh no.... it has already begun: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/03/18/domino-pizza-delivery-drone-hits-road/?intcmp=hphz12

I'd like to see that little S.O.B get a pizza down MY road!

Not sure if you joking but why would a drone controlled by a pizza franchise that is delivering pizza be an issue?

Its designed to also reach more inaccessible areas in the USA....so more people can eat pizza than ever before, of course this can be seen as a negative but I am not talking about people abusing pizza

I believe my post in #2 encapsulates my opinion of the entire discussion. In short, I'm not taking it seriously. Yes automation is going to take away some jobs. That is hardly new. We'll do something else. As long as humans are humans and don't morph into ants or bees (or insert other hive species name here) communisim will not be a viable option for anything other than forum chatter and scaring people to vote for the Republican candidate in the US every four years or so.

Messier-31 · March 21, 2016

obyknven · March 21, 2016

There are starving children, there are countries that have known nothing but grinding poverty for hundreds of years..yes Oby poverty and suffering is real in Africa. Its not all countries of course but it must exist in 15-20 %. And the West has provided lots of aid to these countries, its a fact. Check how much aid Russia has given Africa?

ok, let's check this.

1.Help to Ethiopians win war against European colonialists... in XIX cerntury (Evil Tsarist Russia). For comparison Europeans yet show Africans in "Human Zoo" in mid of XX century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Italo-Ethiopian_War

2. Soviets help to Afrcans conquer freedom in XX century. Too long to explain - help is really HUGE. Soviet even help to your country also:) .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/opinion/10539128/soviet-union-nelson-mandela.html

3. Russia is back in Africa as good old partner

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/articles/russia-s-return-to-africa

In summ, while others try enslave Africans by their "help" only Russians really helped to them.

Almost all African countries had to get loans from the IMF in the 1980's due to mismanagement of there economies after Colonialism ended.

It's a main reason why everything is so bad in Africa.

In XIX century independent Egypt get loans from British bankers also - it's ended by bankruptcy and occupation by British Empire. Such "help" from Reptiloids just can't ended by good things

No one says " colonial " in regards to Africa. Its offensive and reminds people of a difficult and painful history

Let's ban talks about Holocaust and Nazi crimes because this is offensive and reminds people of a difficult and painful history

P.S. I find portrait of Bruce!

Namutree · March 21, 2016

That's a nice rant and all, but technological advancement would have occurred regardless of our currency. Machines replacing human labor is the primary concern of this video.

It wasn't really a rant. It was an attempt at explaining a problem fundamental to what the video is getting at, yet doesn't mention because the makers of it don't see/understand it. In fact, most people don't (even though it's not even remotely rocket science), which is the #1 reason why it's even a problem to begin with.

What the video is getting at is that machine labor is getting more efficient than human labor. This has nothing to do with fiat currency. This is about technology. His post does NOT address the issues of the video in any way.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't have fiat currency technological development would grind to a halt and human labor wouldn't be getting replaced my machines?

teknoman2 · April 9, 2016

It is already here: San Francisco's first automated restaurant is 'pure magic'

So what will be the problem?

Here is the problem: The current system favors people who own capitals and wealth. The top one-percenters will own all the automation that will replace human workers. They alone will benefit from the AI and automation revolution when human workers become obsolete. They and their robot workers will suck up and hoard all the money and wealth. Everyone else will be out of a job and broke. A lot, a lot, of people will be out of a job and broke.

The only solution: communism, socialism, or a guaranteed basic income for everyone. If anyone can think of any other solution, let's hear it.

the problem of capitalism right now is that there is an imbalance of priorities. at the heart of the capitalistic system lies consumerism: the more people buy, the more needs to be produced and more people will be needed to produce it. that means more people will have money to buy more stuff and the circle goes on. however the hoarding mentality of the 1% has reversed the situation. to make production more efficient and cheap (so they can keep a bigger % for themselves, as if what they were already getting wasn't astronomical compared to the average employee) they replaced human labor with machines and that reduced the consumer base by increasing the number of unemployed people not able to buy stuff. smaller consumer base means less sales and less sales means lower profit and that leads to reduction of personnel and salaries that leads to further loss of buying power and further loss of profit... and the circle goes on.

replacing all human labor with machines will naturally bring a sort of communism because in a world where nobody gets paid, nobody can buy what is practically produced at no cost so money becomes obsolete

Mr. Magniloquent · April 9, 2016

.

Posted in error. Mods, please delete.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Mr. Magniloquent

Valsuelm · April 9, 2016

.

Yup.

Posted in jest. Mods, please delete if you delete the quoted.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Valsuelm

Mr. Magniloquent · April 9, 2016

That's a nice rant and all, but technological advancement would have occurred regardless of our currency. Machines replacing human labor is the primary concern of this video.

It wasn't really a rant. It was an attempt at explaining a problem fundamental to what the video is getting at, yet doesn't mention because the makers of it don't see/understand it. In fact, most people don't (even though it's not even remotely rocket science), which is the #1 reason why it's even a problem to begin with.

What the video is getting at is that machine labor is getting more efficient than human labor. This has nothing to do with fiat currency. This is about technology. His post does NOT address the issues of the video in any way.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't have fiat currency technological development would grind to a halt and human labor wouldn't be getting replaced my machines?

Yes, I did.

The use of robotics is only a symptom, because human capital has been out-priced by these market distortions. I could elaborate for a very long time on each of these, but it's money. Money is broken. That's the root.

The video even glosses right over the point at 2:23 when talking about the economics of robotic vs human labor. The incentive to develop these automated systems is because human labor has been out-priced by market distortions. They continue to be pursued because of this. You're not just paying an arbitrated wage (minimum wage), you're paying a large variety of taxes on those wages. You have to provide VERY costly benefits. You have to comply with various regulatory requirements. These are very real burdens. They are the burdens which cause companies to make sure that they never have to hire you.

These distortions exist because money has been ruined. They could never exist in a system where money was backed. Never. They couldn't, because the companies nor the taxpayers could sustain it.

The author also has a vast overestimation of what actually constitutes "thought". Binary computing is not sufficient. Binary computing languages can't even scratch the surface of thought. Quantum computing provides some potential, but is still far off--let alone developing a quantum language capable of utilizing the hardware. The most painful example is when he talks about robotic stock trading. Stock trading doesn't happen through pattern analysis, it happens through exploiting latency in networks to front-run everyone else. Extraordinary difference. The medical doctor referencing is also absurd, because it totally ignores how tightly and incredibly restricted the medical profession is. The medical profession is artificial constrained in the strictest terms imaginable. These constraints are pricing doctors out of reach by market participants.

The video is filled with such fallacies. It makes gross overestimation while ignoring the actual circumstances which drive and develop the situation it seeks to opine about. The OP of this thread doesn't understand why universal income will fail because they don't understand money. The author of the video doesn't understand why robotics are underpricing humans because they don't understand money. You didn't understand my post, because you don't understand money.

You can't have a discussion on economics and ignore the basic unit of trade and store of value--let alone all of the ramifications around it.

HoonDing · April 9, 2016

"Anything ending in -ism is guaranteed ****"

- Abraham Lincoln

Valsuelm · April 9, 2016

"Anything ending in -ism is guaranteed ****"

- Abraham Lincoln

Is this some new bad meme? Attributing quotes to Abe that he obviously never said?

Namutree · April 9, 2016

What the video is getting at is that machine labor is getting more efficient than human labor. This has nothing to do with fiat currency. This is about technology. His post does NOT address the issues of the video in any way.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't have fiat currency technological development would grind to a halt and human labor wouldn't be getting replaced my machines?

Yes, I did.

No matter what currency you have at some point machines will be able to do any labor more effectively and at a lower cost than any human could ever compete with, regardless of the finance system. You may have a point that the current system is speeding up the development of such machines, but such machines would be in development regardless.

Machine labor potential > Human labor potential

This is the be all end all of whether or not human labor will at some point be phased out. If you could have a machine do the labor of a human at 1/1,000 the cost of a human and 1,000 times faster than a human ever could why would anyone consider using human labor? Why wouldn't such a machine be created?

BruceVC · April 9, 2016

Guys I havent read this whole thread but please dont tell me someone is seriously suggesting Communism can work in the year 2016?

Valsuelm · April 9, 2016

Guys I havent read this whole thread but please dont tell me someone is seriously suggesting Communism can work in the year 2016?

Don't be lazy, and don't waste our time.

Read a thread before you comment or get out of it please.

BruceVC · April 10, 2016

Guys I havent read this whole thread but please dont tell me someone is seriously suggesting Communism can work in the year 2016?

Don't be lazy, and don't waste our time.

Read a thread before you comment or get out of it please.

Vals why you being so nasty....I have a headache, if you had a headache I would explain the general points?

Valsuelm · April 10, 2016

Guys I havent read this whole thread but please dont tell me someone is seriously suggesting Communism can work in the year 2016?

Don't be lazy, and don't waste our time.

Read a thread before you comment or get out of it please.

Vals why you being so nasty....I have a headache, if you had a headache I would explain the general points?

Bruce, nasty is not having respect for and wasting other people's time.

If you have a headache, drink some water and go lie down. Come to the forum when you're capable of dealing with it, to the best of your abilities.

BruceVC · April 10, 2016

Guys I havent read this whole thread but please dont tell me someone is seriously suggesting Communism can work in the year 2016?

Don't be lazy, and don't waste our time.

Read a thread before you comment or get out of it please.

Vals why you being so nasty....I have a headache, if you had a headache I would explain the general points?

Bruce, nasty is not having respect for and wasting other people's time.

If you have a headache, drink some water and go lie down. Come to the forum when you're capable of dealing with it, to the best of your abilities.

Vals trust me I wish I could go to sleep but I am debating on those radio stations ....we have serious issues we are discussing about the legitimacy and or if our current president is corrupt

Mr. Magniloquent · April 10, 2016

What the video is getting at is that machine labor is getting more efficient than human labor. This has nothing to do with fiat currency. This is about technology. His post does NOT address the issues of the video in any way.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't have fiat currency technological development would grind to a halt and human labor wouldn't be getting replaced my machines?

Yes, I did.

No matter what currency you have at some point machines will be able to do any labor more effectively and at a lower cost than any human could ever compete with, regardless of the finance system. You may have a point that the current system is speeding up the development of such machines, but such machines would be in development regardless.

Machine labor potential > Human labor potential

This is the be all end all of whether or not human labor will at some point be phased out. If you could have a machine do the labor of a human at 1/1,000 the cost of a human and 1,000 times faster than a human ever could why would anyone consider using human labor? Why wouldn't such a machine be created?

There is nothing wrong with that so long as the fundamentals for it are real. Nobody wept for the jobs lost because mules could carry greater burdens. Nobody weeps for the near total absence of travel agents today. If money keeps equilibrium, then any transition to a robotic workforce must pass a total or proportionate amount of gains in efficiency onto the customer. You cannot sell to someone who has no money.

Robotized production requires massive capital investments, narrow scope, and mass production to yield the necessary profit margin. Even with continually decreasing automation costs, a stable monetary system would require a nearly reciprocal drop in price for efficiencies gained. No customers means no profit, no matter how efficiently you produce.

Namutree · April 10, 2016

What the video is getting at is that machine labor is getting more efficient than human labor. This has nothing to do with fiat currency. This is about technology. His post does NOT address the issues of the video in any way.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't have fiat currency technological development would grind to a halt and human labor wouldn't be getting replaced my machines?

Yes, I did.

No matter what currency you have at some point machines will be able to do any labor more effectively and at a lower cost than any human could ever compete with, regardless of the finance system. You may have a point that the current system is speeding up the development of such machines, but such machines would be in development regardless.

Machine labor potential > Human labor potential

This is the be all end all of whether or not human labor will at some point be phased out. If you could have a machine do the labor of a human at 1/1,000 the cost of a human and 1,000 times faster than a human ever could why would anyone consider using human labor? Why wouldn't such a machine be created?

There is nothing wrong with that so long as the fundamentals for it are real. Nobody wept for the jobs lost because mules could carry greater burdens. Nobody weeps for the near total absence of travel agents today. If money keeps equilibrium, then any transition to a robotic workforce must pass a total or proportionate amount of gains in efficiency onto the customer. You cannot sell to someone who has no money.

True enough. I never said it was a problem; only that it will happen so long as technology keeps advancing.

Zoraptor · April 10, 2016

"Anything ending in -ism is guaranteed ****"

- Abraham Lincoln

Is this some new bad meme? Attributing quotes to Abe that he obviously never said?

It's certainly not a new meme.

(Original was something like "You should not believe every quote found on the internet - Abraham Lincoln" and it's from years ago.)

BruceVC · April 10, 2016

There are starving children, there are countries that have known nothing but grinding poverty for hundreds of years..yes Oby poverty and suffering is real in Africa. Its not all countries of course but it must exist in 15-20 %. And the West has provided lots of aid to these countries, its a fact. Check how much aid Russia has given Africa?

ok, let's check this.

1.Help to Ethiopians win war against European colonialists... in XIX cerntury (Evil Tsarist Russia). For comparison Europeans yet show Africans in "Human Zoo" in mid of XX century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Italo-Ethiopian_War

2. Soviets help to Afrcans conquer freedom in XX century. Too long to explain - help is really HUGE. Soviet even help to your country also:) .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/opinion/10539128/soviet-union-nelson-mandela.html

3. Russia is back in Africa as good old partner

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publications/articles/russia-s-return-to-africa

In summ, while others try enslave Africans by their "help" only Russians really helped to them.

Almost all African countries had to get loans from the IMF in the 1980's due to mismanagement of there economies after Colonialism ended.

It's a main reason why everything is so bad in Africa.

In XIX century independent Egypt get loans from British bankers also - it's ended by bankruptcy and occupation by British Empire. Such "help" from Reptiloids just can't ended by good things

No one says " colonial " in regards to Africa. Its offensive and reminds people of a difficult and painful history

Let's ban talks about Holocaust and Nazi crimes because this is offensive and reminds people of a difficult and painful history

P.S. I find portrait of Bruce!

Oby that picture of the white man sitting on the black persons head is offensive and racist, of course this is not what most white people are like.

I was going to write a long post but I'll just summarize it

Black South Africans dont actually want or need Russia's help or assistance. Many people like myself have been forgiven for our families role in Apartheid...black South Africans are very forgiving and white people like me realize our responsibility to the new South Africa. Because of Apartheid many black South Africans suffer from what has been called Apartheid Trauma, this is real and has psychological impact that manifests itself in different ways

Now this is actually my biggest issue with Russia coming to " help " South Africa. I have never mentioned this to you before because despite what some people on this forum think I dont like being nasty to people but what do you Russians understand about trauma that black South Africans sufer from? Its like you Russians have no real emotion, or sense of real empathy. I dont know what made you like this....and I'm sorry this is how you think. Is it how Russian people suffered under the TZAR, WWI or WW2 but you are a hard nation. Black South Africans don’t need your idea of help…it will just make things worse. We are tired of being used by foreign countries

People like me who are truly committed to the country can and will help black South Africans make the right decisions and help guide them because we care about the country because we understand the horror of Apartheid. And of course as times goes on more and more younger black people are freed from the Apartheid legacy and make there own way, helping to build the country

My advice is stick to what you good at, things that don’t require real emotional sacrifice or understanding. Rebuild the Putin empire, wipe out the Syrians and Chechens, meet with Assad or fix your economy

Just stay away from South Africa because you not really welcome

Edited April 10, 2016 by BruceVC

HoonDing · April 10, 2016

"Just stay away from South Africa because you not really welcome :)"

leaving a frail young woman like oby to fend for herself outside the gated community is too cruel

BruceVC · April 10, 2016

"Just stay away from South Africa because you not really welcome :)"

leaving a frail young woman like oby to fend for herself outside the gated community is too cruel

Oby is a girl...surly not, he posts pictures of girls ?

JadedWolf · April 10, 2016

"Just stay away from South Africa because you not really welcome :)"

leaving a frail young woman like oby to fend for herself outside the gated community is too cruel

Oby is a girl...surly not, he posts pictures of girls ?

That's such a heterosexual-cisgender-male remark of you!

I expected better of you, Bruce. I really did.

Why Communism Is Coming Back, and Guaranteed Basic Income Will Be Inevitable

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