Ranged Paladin?

[Brimsurfer]

I was thinking about creating a mid range Paladin (equipped with ranged weapon) in light armor or robes, basically as support ranged character, but then I realised that at least one of each order's main abilities are tied to Flames of Devotion, which is a melee ability.....

 

I think this kind of restricts this class, I mean I can always just skip that talent but it somehow doesn't feel right, feels like a waste to leave out FoD order ability.....I think it would've been great if flames of devotion could be used with a bow or crossbow too or perhaps only melee weapon is capable to relay the intensity of a Paladin's devotion.....not sure about the lore or stuff on this or why devs intended FoD to work with melee weapons only......

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Raven Darkholme]

FoD works with ranged.

[Braven]

it does work with ranged. At least it did in 2.03. I would often open with a big gun/arbalest shot using FoD to one-shot enemies. That is particularly good if you also use a one handed weapon since FoD is kind of wasted on those. Downside to only using ranged weapons is that you lose out on holding the paladin-only shield that buffs your party with +5 to all defenses. Also you are not really utilizing paladin's natural tankiness if hiding in the back.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Braven

[Brimsurfer]

Not sure what's going on then.......may be have to reinstall or something.....

[MaxQuest]

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

Edited March 10, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Brimsurfer]

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[MaxQuest]

because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me

The point of melee support, is that while you are busy with buffing/dispelling/casting scrolls, you could also hold a shield, and receive less damage from attacks that target def and reflex. Also it's always better to let enemies hit your paladin (if they got through frontline) than your ranged rogue/cipher/etc.

 

That said, ranged paladin can play the role of dedicated dps, in short-medium encounters. While in longer ones, switch to melee supporting, after their ranged alpha-strike phase is over.

 

Regarding damage,.. funny thing Pallegina was ahead of Sagani (by total damage dealt), till around 10; and only recently the ranger has slightly surpassed her.

 

As for kill-stealing Wayfarer.. it's also a good way to play your pala, but you will probably need a specific party composition; in my case, ciphers were stealing 80% of the kills...

Edited March 10, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

 

That's not really true.

From Level 13 on you deal massive amounts of damage with Sacred Immolation. Being surrounded by enemies in melee helps your damage output greatly.

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

[KDubya]

Also you don't have to use a shield. You can spec for damage, use either a big two hander or dual wield and still be tanky enough to stand in the front and keep the enemy at bay. All this while still making the entire team better via healing, auras, and buffs. Kind Wayfarers don't need special micro to get a few kills per battle, unless you are AoE nuking everything everytime, in which case you probably don't need the healing.

 

Paladins are All Stars, in basketball they'd be the guys getting triple-doubles every game.

[Crucis]

A weapon I haven't seen mentioned as being great for an off-tank second line paladin is pikes.  Specifically, Tall Grass.  You can still do plenty of ranged attacks with arbalests or arquebusses.  But you can also use pikes from behind your front liners as well.  And the upside here is that they're all Soldier group weapons!

[Crucis]

 

 

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

 

That's not really true.

From Level 13 on you deal massive amounts of damage with Sacred Immolation. Being surrounded by enemies in melee helps your damage output greatly.

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

Raven, I'm not sure that I'd say that they "far superior".   I will say that they can absolutely hold their own.  Of course, you and I may have somewhat different definitions of "tanking".

 

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

 

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

 

That's not really true.

From Level 13 on you deal massive amounts of damage with Sacred Immolation. Being surrounded by enemies in melee helps your damage output greatly.

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

Raven, I'm not sure that I'd say that they "far superior".   I will say that they can absolutely hold their own.  Of course, you and I may have somewhat different definitions of "tanking".

 

 

I thought it clear I compared paladin and any other class in the game.

As to what I understand by tanking, I solo the game mostly (I dabbled in 3 member parties twice) and I don't like kiting.

So I build my pala defensive and tank absolutely eevrything including the dragons.

If you compare a fighter to a paladin you will not get close to the same results because his other defenses besides deflection are too low.

Also his deflection is slightly less and was significantly less before the latest patch.

Also I mentioned Sacred  Immolation. Just because of that skill even tho it has nothing to do with tanking (but works best if you are surrounded), the paladin becomes a far better damage dealer than fighter beyond level 13. Which once again if you are solo and have to tank way more, than with a group, is a VERY big deal.

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

 

That's not really true.

From Level 13 on you deal massive amounts of damage with Sacred Immolation. Being surrounded by enemies in melee helps your damage output greatly.

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

Raven, I'm not sure that I'd say that they "far superior".   I will say that they can absolutely hold their own.  Of course, you and I may have somewhat different definitions of "tanking".

 

 

I thought it clear I compared paladin and any other class in the game.

As to what I understand by tanking, I solo the game mostly (I dabbled in 3 member parties twice) and I don't like kiting.

So I build my pala defensive and tank absolutely eevrything including the dragons.

If you compare a fighter to a paladin you will not get close to the same results because his other defenses besides deflection are too low.

Also his deflection is slightly less and was significantly less before the latest patch.

Also I mentioned Sacred  Immolation. Just because of that skill even tho it has nothing to do with tanking (but works best if you are surrounded), the paladin becomes a far better damage dealer than fighter beyond level 13. Which once again if you are solo and have to tank way more, than with a group, is a VERY big deal.

 

 

I should say that I never, ever solo these games.  And I never have less than a full party once I have the characters to fill it out.  I see these games as being meant to be played with a PARTY of characters, not as some 3rd person version of a 1st person shooter.  No single character in my parties is meant to play the game as anything other than part of the team.  Thus, I see things from that "team" perspective.

[Boeroer]

Yeah well even in a team the paladin tanks best. I always play mine as alpha strikers who shoot two or three times (2* FoD, 1* Runner's Wounding Shot) with an arquebus or blunderbuss and then switch to outworn buckler. Works like a charm and combines very high burst damage with great tanking abilities. But of course you can build a paladin who doesn't go into melee. There is a build in this forum "Darcozzi Forward Observer" or "Commendatore" who used Coordinated Attacks, St. Garam's Spark (Marking) and Inspiring Liberation to pump his buddies' ACC by +30. He was 100% ranged and the build sounded like great fun.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just thought FoD with a ranged weapon would be cool........

Well it sort of is

 

That's the way I play with Pallegina, placed in second row and holding Aedrin's Wrecker.

 

FoD greatly benefits from slow hard-hitting weapons, while also providing bonus acc. Majority of FoD shots are resulting in a stun or a prone. Coupled with apprentice sneak attack it's a great alpha strike, which also gives +20% attack speed to everyone. And since she stands in the mid-line, it's guaranteed to cover all party members. Following with SE/Wrath of the five suns, deals the next portion of damage, and again higher acc helps to land the next stun/prone. Then use second FoD or Runner's Wounding Shot. And only then, if for some reason the fight is not already over, she can switch to 1h+Outworn Buckler, offtank, and heal/support the party. Another bonus is that when she is not in the front she can easily move around and cast lay on Hands without getting disengagement attacks.

 

 

That's kind of what I have in mind for my Pally (however I won't be switching to melee weapons much), because this whole melee support thing don't really make much sense to me and only because of that Paladins in this game always seem dispensable to me........you go toe to toe with foe but you don't deal much damage and you can't really tank that well either, have no class talents that provide any mechanics to deal with engagement or close quarter combat, so that don't make sense to me.......that's why I have never played a Paladin before.....now I think a ranged Paladin may do it for me but seems like he won't be as good as priest or a chanter, unless I roll Kind Wayfarer and score killshots....

 

That's not really true.

From Level 13 on you deal massive amounts of damage with Sacred Immolation. Being surrounded by enemies in melee helps your damage output greatly.

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

Raven, I'm not sure that I'd say that they "far superior".   I will say that they can absolutely hold their own.  Of course, you and I may have somewhat different definitions of "tanking".

 

 

I thought it clear I compared paladin and any other class in the game.

As to what I understand by tanking, I solo the game mostly (I dabbled in 3 member parties twice) and I don't like kiting.

So I build my pala defensive and tank absolutely eevrything including the dragons.

If you compare a fighter to a paladin you will not get close to the same results because his other defenses besides deflection are too low.

Also his deflection is slightly less and was significantly less before the latest patch.

Also I mentioned Sacred  Immolation. Just because of that skill even tho it has nothing to do with tanking (but works best if you are surrounded), the paladin becomes a far better damage dealer than fighter beyond level 13. Which once again if you are solo and have to tank way more, than with a group, is a VERY big deal.

 

 

I should say that I never, ever solo these games.  And I never have less than a full party once I have the characters to fill it out.  I see these games as being meant to be played with a PARTY of characters, not as some 3rd person version of a 1st person shooter.  No single character in my parties is meant to play the game as anything other than part of the team.  Thus, I see things from that "team" perspective.

 

It was totally not the point of my post.

You said you might define tanking different than me, which to me sounded like you think I might be satisfied with a less effective tank.

That's why I brought up soloing, since if you don't kite you have to tank way more hits.

[Crucis]

 

I should say that I never, ever solo these games.  And I never have less than a full party once I have the characters to fill it out.  I see these games as being meant to be played with a PARTY of characters, not as some 3rd person version of a 1st person shooter.  No single character in my parties is meant to play the game as anything other than part of the team.  Thus, I see things from that "team" perspective.

It was totally not the point of my post.

You said you might define tanking different than me, which to me sounded like you think I might be satisfied with a less effective tank.

That's why I brought up soloing, since if you don't kite you have to tank way more hits.

 

 

But you see, right there, you have pointed out a difference between how you and I define "tanking".  You say "you have to tank way more hits". This isn't tanking to me.  A "tank" to me isn't something defensive or only defensive.  A "tank" character is a heavily armored character who is meant to go into harm's way, using his armor to help protect himself so that he can get into range to use his own offensive abilities.

 

OTOH, some people here define "tank" as a strictly defensive character whose job is (or was in PoE's early days) to get as many characters attacking him, hopefully pointlessly, as possible.  Essentially abusing the game's mechanics.  This sort of "tank" wouldn't work in a real P&P game because a game master would simply have the enemy be smarter and at some point just ignore the aggro magnet "tank". 

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is exactly what you're saying, but some do.  Hence, my comments about different definitions of "tank".

 

 

 

 

Edited to cut down on the quote nesting....

Edited March 10, 2016 by Crucis

[Brimsurfer]

.......................

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

I have never really played a Paladin protagonist before so I don't know, they may be able to soak some damage but I am guessing that they may not be so good at proper tanking because they dont have any close quarter combat class talents like CC abilities or the ones that help with engagement mechanics, like fighter can knock enemies down, clear them out, pull them in range, knock them out when they try to escape etc...........I don't see any close combat class talents in Paladin's repertoire, not even one IIRC their skill table........

 

I am really not sure how a Paladin will manage keeping 2 or 3 enemies engaged on her, without letting them escape......

[Boeroer]

So - how do you think any other class manages keeping 2 or 3 enemies engaged on it, without letting them escape?

[Brimsurfer]

Just found out that Shield Flames skill of Shieldbearer of St Elcga doesn't work on Paladin herself, or is there something wrong going on in my game, because i can't seem to get that +10 deflection bonus either in melee or ranged combat......same goes for Kind Wayfarer healing on kill and with FoD......not healing the Paladin herself......

 

Can anyone please confirm this?

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Crucis]

Just found out that Shield Flames skill of Shieldbearer of St Elcga doesn't work on Paladin herself, or is there something wrong going on in my game, because i can't seem to get that +10 deflection bonus either in melee or ranged combat......same goes for Kind Wayfarer healing on kill and with FoD......not healing the Paladin herself......

 

Can anyone please confirm this?

 

I think that it's true.

 

Sheldbearers exist to protect others, not themselves.  It's part of their lore.

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

Just found out that Shield Flames skill of Shieldbearer of St Elcga doesn't work on Paladin herself, or is there something wrong going on in my game, because i can't seem to get that +10 deflection bonus either in melee or ranged combat......same goes for Kind Wayfarer healing on kill and with FoD......not healing the Paladin herself......

 

Can anyone please confirm this?

Any ability in the game that works on allied targets will not work on the caster.

Only abilities that work on FRIENDLY targets will work on both party and caster. (Those also work on non party npcs, while the allied ones don't)

 

 

 

I should say that I never, ever solo these games.  And I never have less than a full party once I have the characters to fill it out.  I see these games as being meant to be played with a PARTY of characters, not as some 3rd person version of a 1st person shooter.  No single character in my parties is meant to play the game as anything other than part of the team.  Thus, I see things from that "team" perspective.

It was totally not the point of my post.

You said you might define tanking different than me, which to me sounded like you think I might be satisfied with a less effective tank.

That's why I brought up soloing, since if you don't kite you have to tank way more hits.

 

 

But you see, right there, you have pointed out a difference between how you and I define "tanking".  You say "you have to tank way more hits". This isn't tanking to me.  A "tank" to me isn't something defensive or only defensive.  A "tank" character is a heavily armored character who is meant to go into harm's way, using his armor to help protect himself so that he can get into range to use his own offensive abilities.

 

OTOH, some people here define "tank" as a strictly defensive character whose job is (or was in PoE's early days) to get as many characters attacking him, hopefully pointlessly, as possible.  Essentially abusing the game's mechanics.  This sort of "tank" wouldn't work in a real P&P game because a game master would simply have the enemy be smarter and at some point just ignore the aggro magnet "tank". 

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is exactly what you're saying, but some do.  Hence, my comments about different definitions of "tank".

 

 

 

 

Edited to cut down on the quote nesting....

 

I did not say a tank is defined by HAVING TO tank way more hits. It just proves how good a paladin tanks. The beauty of paladins (and I think OPness) is, they DO plenty of damage.

I never built 3 MI 3 PER paladins. I LOVE my damage. And once you get sacred immolation only casters can compare in damage output and kill numbers.

A fighter doesn't even come close.

 

 

.......................

What gave you the idea paladins don't tank well? They are far superior to any class in tanking.

 

 

I have never really played a Paladin protagonist before so I don't know, they may be able to soak some damage but I am guessing that they may not be so good at proper tanking because they dont have any close quarter combat class talents like CC abilities or the ones that help with engagement mechanics, like fighter can knock enemies down, clear them out, pull them in range, knock them out when they try to escape etc...........I don't see any close combat class talents in Paladin's repertoire, not even one IIRC their skill table........

 

I am really not sure how a Paladin will manage keeping 2 or 3 enemies engaged on her, without letting them escape......

 

Like Boroer said in the post right below you, keeping enemies engaged is something you will have to think about with ANY tank.

Engagement is useless. Prone and such are not enough casts on a tank, like the fighter.

If you are surrounded by 10+ enemies you need other ways to keep them engaged.

I personally don't have any problems with that, but I have a unique playstyle, my parties are always built around a tank.