Replaying PotD, an argument for custom attributes for NPCs

[Tigranes]

I don't begrudge people the desire to have this option, and I might use it as well if it were available. That said, the suboptimal attributes don't cripple them at all, and it's easy to create powerhouse story companions for POTD runs.

[AndreaColombo]

The IE Mod makes it available as of the latest version.

[Livegood118]

 

I literally cannot understand peoples' problems with this request.

 

If you don't want to mod NPC companions' attributes for RP reasons then that's great, don't do it in your game. The choice is completely open to you.

 

What I don't get is that there are some people that don't want other people to be able to do it – even when it has absolutely no consequence on their experience of the game.

seriously, the OP is right on. WHY does it bother some people SO much to even have the option? what is it with you people that make you feel you need to control everyone else's view of how the game should be played?

 

why?

 

it's literally no skin off your nose.

 

smh.

It is not true that implementing this won't affect me.

If you go to the bug forum, you see that it is a bug that you can not set the companions attributes to different values persistently via cheats.

Lets see what the devs have to say about that in the corresponding thread :

Hello Everybody,

 

Unfortunately this bug is not the easy fix we were all hoping for. It proved to be more difficult trying to get this to work as it did previously. I am sorry to say that we will not be fixing this bug at this point in time.

 

Thank you all for your support and understanding in this matter.

What can we take away from this:

- If it is not easy to implement the cheats, it's obviously not easy to make a option for retraining.

- If they were to implement it, it would cost them a lot of ressources.

 

Also, additional information includes:

- As people have already commented in this thread, there are workarounds to adjust the companions attributes.

- The companions have never been able to retrain their attributes before without cheat codes if I'm not mistaken.

- There are still many bugs in the bug forum to be taken care of.

 

If you get your 'best of both worlds', that will cost ressources. But the game will only get a couple of more patches until they will drop support, since WM2 was the last content provided and ressources are finite. It is very likely that not all bugs will be fixed.

 

Feel free to draw your own conclusion, but mine is that as long as there are still bugs around that break items, talents, spells or general game mechanics, companion respec has a very very low priority on this list. I can't make a fix for the bug of losing several damage multipliers I have at the moment, you can fix your issues. Giving your stuff priority has the potential to be detriment to my future playthroughs through lack of patching of other stuff I actually might encounter, so you can bet I will openly disagree with your wish, even though I understand it. It's not even like people tried to be impolite.

That's a pretty reasonable response, but if somebody can jury rig a fix as quickly as they did - as evident from those links - then it stands to reason that the devs can find a solution too without an insurmountable effort.

 

It's obviously an important issue to a lot of people and I wouldn't begrudge you the fixes you want either, though it's not as if they're mutually exclusive. Given the outcry about this - as evident from this thread and others - it seems to me like a feature they should restore, even though it was never supported in an "official" capacity.

[AndreaColombo]

 

 

 

That's a pretty reasonable response, but if somebody can jury rig a fix as quickly as they did - as evident from those links - then it stands to reason that the devs can find a solution too without an insurmountable effort.

 

Development time is a precious thing. We do not know how long it took the IE Mod maintainers to develop their solution, and we do not know whether it is completely bug free. Obsidian never officially supported the use of the console anyway; I'd rather they focus on fixing gameplay bugs for these last few patches, especially if this feature can be had via mods.

[Livegood118]

That's another reason I'd prefer a Dev approved fix - with all the respect in the world to the IE mod guys who've obviously put a lot of work in to it, I'd prefer something that's definitely/always going to be completely stable. Like I said previously, the majority of my salt on this subject comes from the fact that it was an option that was open to players before and now it's gone.

 

I guess we'll see when the next patch comes out.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Livegood118

[AndreaColombo]

Like I said previously, the majority of my salt on this subject comes from the fact that it was an option that was open to players before and now it's gone.

 

That's likely an unintended side effect of some other code change they made. I doubt they went out of their way and wasted development time to remove a feature that was harmless at best.

[Livegood118]

 

 

Like I said previously, the majority of my salt on this subject comes from the fact that it was an option that was open to players before and now it's gone.

That's likely an unintended side effect of some other code change they made. I doubt they went out of their way and wasted development time to remove a feature that was harmless at best.

I think that's been pretty much confirmed by Aaron D.

[Doppelschwert]

That's a pretty reasonable response, but if somebody can jury rig a fix as quickly as they did - as evident from those links - then it stands to reason that the devs can find a solution too without an insurmountable effort.

 

It's obviously an important issue to a lot of people and I wouldn't begrudge you the fixes you want either, though it's not as if they're mutually exclusive. Given the outcry about this - as evident from this thread and others - it seems to me like a feature they should restore, even though it was never supported in an "official" capacity.

Don't get me wrong, if it was an easy fix I wouldn't care if the devs went ahead to fix it, but as Aarik D. already more or less implied in my quote, they tried to fix it and couldn't do it in a reasonable time, so they dropped it in favour of more urgent things.

 

My conjecture is that the reason WM2 introduced this bug in the first place is that they worked on the save system and introduced this bug unintentionally. In such a scenario, it surely would make sense to ignore this bug until all the urgent things are patched out, since then they needed to take their time to properly test everything (imagine they introduce a bug with saving while fixing the cheats and the resulting outcry of people losing their saves).

[prodigydancer]

Personally, I wouldn't mind having yet another difficulty beyond PotD where all enemies would deal 2x damage.

Story companions are fine. I see no harm in letting people to change their stats if they so desire, but anyone who says that story companions as they are now don't cut it on PotD is either misinformed or needs to make adjustments to their playstyle.
 

Pallegina and Aloth in particular - are badly put imho...

 

Aloth is easily the best DPS among pre-TWM companions; plus he now has access to all those ridiculously overpowered talents that were handed out to Wizards because of all the whining.

 

Pallegina is a decent tank, and no matter what people say, tanks are still useful. You just can't stack all mobs on one tank anymore, so you need two primary tanks + one emergency off-tank to keep your backline relatively safe. Works like a charm.

Edited March 8, 2016 by prodigydancer

[Crucis]

Personally, I wouldn't mind having yet another difficulty beyond PotD where all enemies would deal 2x damage.

 

Story companions are fine. I see no harm in letting people to change their stats if they so desire, but anyone who says that story companions as they are now don't cut it on PotD is either misinformed or needs to make adjustments to their playstyle.

 

Pallegina and Aloth in particular - are badly put imho...

 

Aloth is easily the best DPS among pre-TWM companions; plus he now has access to all those ridiculously overpowered talents that were handed out to Wizards because of all the whining.

 

Pallegina is a decent tank, and no matter what people say, tanks are still useful. You just can't stack all mobs on one tank anymore, so you need two primary tanks + one emergency off-tank to keep your backline relatively safe. Works like a charm.

 

 

1. The "harm" is that it's time and money wasted to develop something.  Time and money that could be put to better use.

 

2. IMO, Pallegina is entire functional as is.

 

As I said in a previous post, I have no problem with the idea that perhaps the devs should re-examine the Companions' stats in light of the "Perception now affects Accuracy" change, back in patch 2.0 (IIRC).  Some of the Companions are lacking in that area.  But overall, I think that people make much too big a deal about this.  Equipment and talents/abilities matter a lot more than less than perfectly optimized attributes in PoE.

 

 

[Ichthyic]

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind having yet another difficulty beyond PotD where all enemies would deal 2x damage.

 

Story companions are fine. I see no harm in letting people to change their stats if they so desire, but anyone who says that story companions as they are now don't cut it on PotD is either misinformed or needs to make adjustments to their playstyle.

 

Pallegina and Aloth in particular - are badly put imho...

 

Aloth is easily the best DPS among pre-TWM companions; plus he now has access to all those ridiculously overpowered talents that were handed out to Wizards because of all the whining.

 

Pallegina is a decent tank, and no matter what people say, tanks are still useful. You just can't stack all mobs on one tank anymore, so you need two primary tanks + one emergency off-tank to keep your backline relatively safe. Works like a charm.

 

 

1. The "harm" is that it's time and money wasted to develop something.  Time and money that could be put to better use.

 

2. IMO, Pallegina is entire functional as is.

 

As I said in a previous post, I have no problem with the idea that perhaps the devs should re-examine the Companions' stats in light of the "Perception now affects Accuracy" change, back in patch 2.0 (IIRC).  Some of the Companions are lacking in that area.  But overall, I think that people make much too big a deal about this.  Equipment and talents/abilities matter a lot more than less than perfectly optimized attributes in PoE.

 

I really don't buy this argument at all.

 

one, the files are merely compressed xml for the datasheet references.  it would hardly be difficult to make a utility to edit them.  hell, many people already have independently.

 

two, who are you to judge which is and is not the best way to spend dev time?

 

you know nothing, Jon Snow.

 

 

[Doppelschwert]

two, who are you to judge which is and is not the best way to spend dev time?

That is kind of hypocritical since this argument applies to everyone except the devs, you included.

Who are you to judge that implementing companion respec is a better way to spend dev time?

 

Besides, he has an actual objective point why dev time can be spent better somewhere else:

Companion respec was never and is not officially support at the moment. A lot of officially supported things have bugs at the same time. The priorities are pretty clear.

 

And the argument that it is an easy fix in your opinion is a slippery slope as well - if it is so easy to fix that several people have already done it, use a mod from those people and let the devs fix the complex bugs no one else can fix.

[Doppelschwert]

Rejoice, someone solved your problem:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84980-good-news-everyone-a-way-to-permanently-change-npc-companion-stats/?p=1784094

[Ichthyic]

 

two, who are you to judge which is and is not the best way to spend dev time?

That is kind of hypocritical since this argument applies to everyone except the devs, you included.

Who are you to judge that implementing companion respec is a better way to spend dev time?

 

Besides, he has an actual objective point why dev time can be spent better somewhere else:

Companion respec was never and is not officially support at the moment. A lot of officially supported things have bugs at the same time. The priorities are pretty clear.

 

And the argument that it is an easy fix in your opinion is a slippery slope as well - if it is so easy to fix that several people have already done it, use a mod from those people and let the devs fix the complex bugs no one else can fix.

 

I DIDN'T make the judgement... YOU did.

 

I was pointing out that you have no real info to even begin to make such a judgment.

 

i at least took the time to figure out how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

so, yeah...

 

and slippery slope?  wtf?  you don't even know what that means.

 

run along and play.

 

 

 

[Ichthyic]

Rejoice, someone solved your problem:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84980-good-news-everyone-a-way-to-permanently-change-npc-companion-stats/?p=1784094

yeah, that's one of the reasons I said this was a relatively easy "fix".  this has been known for a long time actually; some of us edited those files just like that way back before version 1.4 even.

 

*shrug*

 

but hey, those that want to insist that 'tis hard and the devs MUST focus on what they want them to focus on can continue onwards as they wish of course.

 

 

[AndreaColombo]

Again, I don't understand how fixing an unsupported feature can be more important than, say, fixing items that don't work at all or work in a completely different manner from what is expected (just to name a bug that is rather pervasive as of 3.01.)

 

There's a reason why story NPCs have the stats they do (and I was never a fan of how some of them were changed in early patches to accommodate game mechanics); no problem if people want to go out of their way to change them, but demanding that the devs go out of theirs isn't logical or fair.

 

Besides, the point about power doesn't really stand. I'm running a PotD game with upscaled content and story companion and they do pretty good. My only complaint is that Durance is slow (then again he himself claims in your first conversation that his weight is considerable, so a low DEX makes sense for him); other than that, more power is the last thing I feel a need for.

[Odd Hermit]

The argument is that being stuck with their all over the place attribute spreads reduces replay value since you can't make fun builds with them. Attributes are a substantial part of making some builds work well. It's just a shame that you have to miss out on their commentary if you want custom builds in later playthroughs.

 

That they also happen to suck even for cookie cutter class builds isn't a completely trivial thing either but it's not the main point here.

 

I've already gone through Hard and PotD playthroughs with the "roleplay" attribute spreads, and I just don't want to do it again for The White March. It's boring.

[AndreaColombo]

That is not a particularly good argument.

 

This game is at the end of its life cycle, with 1 or 2 patches left beyond 3.02 if we're lucky. There are limited development time and resources left to fix bugs and polish the product. To fix the console command, development time should be invested that would inevitably be taken away from what time is left to fix bugs.

 

What you are suggesting is that they start supporting a feature that was never officially supported in the first place, and spend time to develop a solution that a mod's already offering—thus taking away from bug fixing and polish—based on your opinion of the story companions. This despite the fact that story companions reflect the developer's vision and the developer never meant for you to change their attributes.

 

Having played with both hired mercenaries and story companions, I disagree with your assessment of their attribute spread, and of the importance of attributes in Pillars of Eternity—but that's beside the point. You can use the IE Mod to alter story companions' attributes; why demand that the developers to start supporting the console this late in the development cycle at the detriment of much-needed bug fixing?

[Odd Hermit]

We can already respec the player character's attributes, it can't be that difficult to allow us to change companion's as well.

 

As for the dev's vision, I respect the effort made in balancing attributes, but having combat stats dictated by personality didn't turn out that well and there's nothing that really makes the connection interesting or relevant to the gameplay. It just means the story companions have poor attributes that can't be changed for fairly arbitrary feeling reasons.

[Gromnir]

am personal not seeing the issue, but to each his own, eh?  if you do not like the obsidian joinable npcs and their quirky attribute spreads, you can create your own party members.  is not an ideal solution for some folks, but it is a solution to a perceived problem.  why create custom party mates if one can complete respec all the joinables... especially now that we got at least one joinabale for every class?  

 

that being said, in earlier incarnations o' poe, the joinables frequent had minor bonuses that could not be replicated with a created npc.  e.g. eder had free ruffian talent and kana had a free chant.  weren't major stuff, but it were making the joinables unique.  am not certain why such stuff were removed.  seemed like a nice way to makes the joinabales more appealing, and such bonuses were reminiscent o' more than a couple bg joinables who had unique abilities.  

 

in any event, we got near full respec for the protagonist and we can alter the talents and abilities for the joinables.  such options is more than satisfactory for our personal needs.  add functionality so that folks can tank durance's resolve strikes us as unnecessary (excessive even,) but if enough people complain, then perhaps obsidian will listen.  the complaints appear so trivial given the functionality we already got.  is not gonna be high on our list o' remaining priorities, but not everybody need be the same as Gromnir.   bang the drum and perhaps obsidian listens.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 12, 2016 by Gromnir

[Crucis]

am personal not seeing the issue, but to each his own, eh?  if you do not like the obsidian joinable npcs and their quirky attribute spreads, you can create your own party members.  is not an ideal solution for some folks, but it is a solution to a perceived problem.  why create custom party mates if one can complete respec all the joinables... especially now that we got at least one joinabale for every class?  

 

that being said, in earlier incarnations o' poe, the joinables frequent had minor bonuses that could not be replicated with a created npc.  e.g. eder had free ruffian talent and kana had a free chant.  weren't major stuff, but it were making the joinables unique.  am not certain why such stuff were removed.  seemed like a nice way to makes the joinabales more appealing, and such bonuses were reminiscent o' more than a couple bg joinables who had unique abilities.  

 

in any event, we got near full respec for the protagonist and we can alter the talents and abilities for the joinables.  such options is more than satisfactory for our personal needs.  add functionality so that folks can tank durance's resolve strikes us as unnecessary (excessive even,) but if enough people complain, then perhaps obsidian will listen.  the complaints appear so trivial given the functionality we already got.  is not gonna be high on our list o' remaining priorities, but not everybody need be the same as Gromnir.   bang the drum and perhaps obsidian listens.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir, that this sounds like is the versions of the Companions you get if you don't use the setting that allows you to get them at level 1 and level them up yourself.  For example, IIRC, Eder's original release version came with WF Ruffian.

 

 

[Gromnir]

eder had a bonus talent.  eder had an extra talent.  kinda quirky though as you could cheat yourself outta the bonus by acquiring eder pre-level 3.  it were kinda cheesy, but for eder and kana it made sense to let the game auto-level them as they had bonus talents/chants.  for our most recent run, we saved 'fore eder acquisition.   regardless o' whether we set as allowing us to re-level from 1 or not, no free rufian for eder.  no biggie. odd that the freebies were removed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kvaak]

eder had a bonus talent.  eder had an extra talent.  kinda quirky though as you could cheat yourself outta the bonus by acquiring eder pre-level 3.  it were kinda cheesy, but for eder and kana it made sense to let the game auto-level them as they had bonus talents/chants.  for our most recent run, we saved 'fore eder acquisition.   regardless o' whether we set as allowing us to re-level from 1 or not, no free rufian for eder.  no biggie. odd that the freebies were removed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I find it weirder that the WM companions all have clearly unique properties or bonuses, after finishing their story mission if not otherwise. That applies to vanilla companions as well to some degree (you can't have a fox or shapeshift into a stelgaer as a PC ranger/druid, Pallegina's order is unavailable to PC paladins) but it still feels like they tried to make the expansion companions "better" for some reason. Including our friendly neighborhood medieval HK-47, IMO the immunities easily outweigh the crappy armour and lack of digestive system.

[Ymarsakar]

Planescape Torment had a good and fun option of talking to companions, unlocking their peculiar issues, and then buffing their stats permanently as a result, on top of Dakkon's primary weapon morphing to suit his style. Dakkon already had a "soulbound", he didn't need 12 via an expansion.

 

Temporary buffs or dialogue/lore based class changes, could improve the personality of certain characters (souls) without making it a "1 companion per class" thing or diluting it down to combat > companion story.

 

The expansion characters were probably iterated on more, so they could allow for certain bonus awards. It doesn't change the limitations of the system, of course. To change the system, they needed to do it in preproduction, which presumably they are doing so for POE2's preproduction phase.

 

As for companion stats, they don't really cripple build abilities. Min maxing wasn't a big deal in Pillars, and was designed to avoid min max builds most of the time. The classes, themselves, and their powers affect gameplay and balance more. The fact that POE has a lot more stat bonuses and food pre fight buffs, also offers more flexibility than BG2. BG2 had what, 2-4 giant girdles that affected strength, plus 1 potion from clerical domain, and a few cleric spells that only cleric and multiclassed clerics could cast... of course in BG2 18 charisma did zero for a fighter. Whereas here, 18 resolve and 18 int does provide a fighter benefit. It's just not a might benefit.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[falchen]

There's a reason why story NPCs have the stats they do (and I was never a fan of how some of them were changed in early patches to accommodate game mechanics); no problem if people want to go out of their way to change them, but demanding that the devs go out of theirs isn't logical or fair.

 

The companions were designed when perception gave accuracy, they made sense then but not with the change. Funnily enough now that perception gives accuracy again a case could be made for having the original stats again.

 

As for the "bonus talents" I think that wasn't intended, rather someone made a mistake in their autolevelup tables, or maybe when characters get levels also changed during development but they were not updated until later.

Edited March 14, 2016 by falchen