So I just take apprentice sneak attack on everybody, right?

[gkathellar]

Coming back to seriously playing the game for the first time in a while. Is there any reason I don't want to just take this as everyone's 1st-3rd talent?

[Braven]

A solo, or low member party, will have a harder time getting the conditions to trigger sneak attack all the time. You might need to focus more on flanking, or picking powers that cause the needed status ailments.

 

Finally, 15% extra damage is not really As much as it seems. Because of the way damage work, they just add up the percents first, 15% is actually more like 3-5% later in the game once you have weapon enchantments and other % damage increases. Also note that it is better with weapons that have a high base attack. It is 15% before strength or anything else is applied. Faster, low base attack weapons would gain much more from vulnerable attack and should grab that early instead.

 

Finally, there are many things that effectively increase damage without actually saying damage. Like DR bypass, accuracy boosting, lower enemy defenses, and attack speed. Even defensive abilities can be considered to increase damage, long term, because a fallen character cannot swing a sword or cast a spell.

 

I actually think that talent is better later in the game (if ever). Really depends on class and equipment. For example, cipher and ranger have much better talents for quite a long time.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Braven

[Teioh_White]

Hmm..well, I've not tested to make sure it's working as written, but I don't think it works for spells. So, might lay off it for a Wizard. And early on you might not be able to have 100% uptime on a sneak attack if you're in a non-flanking situation. And tanks might want to get their defensive talents early.

 

About 3rd is the earliest I'd take it. And since we have 8 talents to take nowadays, any class not going pure caster or tank will likely be taking it at some point. I think my last run, only Pallegina didn't take it, as she had to spend hers on defensive talents.

[MaxQuest]

Coming back to seriously playing the game for the first time in a while. Is there any reason I don't want to just take this as everyone's 1st-3rd talent?

Everyone? Probably not. But it's good on damage dealers. Especially those who rely on medium-fast weapons, and hit a high-DR enemy.

Spherical example: 40 dmg hit vs 28 DR. 10 Might, no other bonuses. With extra 0.15, it's 46 dmg, so your effective damage goes up from 12 to 18.

(But usually it provides less than 10% in damage increase)

Edited March 4, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

Does it stack with the sneak attack of a skaen priest?

That would be the only class with 2 sneak attacks, or can you not take both?

[zered]

It does.

[Boeroer]

Schemer's Needler

 

I would only take this talent if I planned to attack a lot. Supporters andthe like don't need it at all. Even for damage dealers there are better ones if you run short of talent points.

[Teioh_White]

Not sure there's enough damage talents to not take this if just going for max deeps. You've got focus, stance, and style of whatever weapon type at a min. Chanter+Flame lash makes Scion of Flames a no brainer as well. Leaves four talents.  For general talents, there's Vulnerable for those focused builds that already get more than 100% speed. Bloody Slaughter, which best case is a bonus .5 mod active for 20% of a mobs hp, which comes out to less overall, so that's out. Gallant Focus will need to be on at least one person. Maybe Outlander Frenzy for some class that isn't tanking Int? After that it's just various 0.25 racial mods, and I'd rather get a .15 mod that works against all 7 any day of the week.

 

So, even the weird outlier case will still have 1 talent spot open, and more likely two or three spots, so can't push it off the table with just general talents. It would have to be knocked down out by class ones in that case. Not a ton of classes have two damage talents to compete with it. Some classes though clearly won't want it. Ranger's the easy one, it has so dang many nice Pet talents to take it won't have room for this. Cipher's another, it has at least two, if not three class talents it wants.  Druid, Wizard, and Priest are casters and have better things to do with their time than maximize auto attack. Rogue can't take it, of course.

 

So, those 6 classes will probably  never take it. For the rest.....Fighter has a talents that's worse, and a questionable bonus knockdown. It'll probably take it. Barb has accurate carnage, but that's really it, so it's another. Pld I guess could have two FoD pumping traits if you really want it DPS for some reason, but it'd probably take it anyways as it helps maximize said FoD. Chanter could easily take it, it has nothing in it's class that mods damage, so worth it if Chanters roll is damage during those long waits between Invocations. Chanters do make nice guys to carry Galant's Focus, but that probably won't get in the way. Last is Monk who has one must take it Lightning Strikes, but pretty clear schedule after that, so it'd probably take it.

 

Of course, this is just if you want a class to focus just on damage. If you ever want something else, like double Save bonus on a char already maxxing both a saves attributes to own that save, this'll be the first knocked off the ledge. So, I guess to answer the initial question, less than half the classes will actually want this talent, and then, only if they're focused just on doing max damage.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Teioh_White

[Elric Galad]

Scion of flame is only 20% bonus on 25% chanter lash, which result 5% damage. I would not say it is a no-brainer.

 

Of course, with an fire lash on your weapon, fire godlike racial, various abilities, or even just for the 5DR against fire, it is a nice talent. But I usually only take Scion of flames on my casters and on my paladin.

[hilfazer]

Wrong.

 

Apprentice Sneak Attack is horribly underpowered, avoid it. While other cross-class skills have 67%-80% of original's skill power (or even 100% for some numbers) this one has only 30%.

[Elric Galad]

That's because original sneak attack itself worths far more than constant recovery or frenzy... Sneak attack is the reason why you bring a rogue with your party in the first place. Apprentice's sneak attack is a totally balanced talent IMHO.

[gkathellar]

Wrong.

 

Apprentice Sneak Attack is horribly underpowered, avoid it. While other cross-class skills have 67%-80% of original's skill power (or even 100% for some numbers) this one has only 30%.

... this would make far more sense if the abilities you're talking about weren't totally asymmetric and so impossible to meaningfully compare along these lines.

[Braven]

I disagree with constant recovery (or veterans) being labeled as worse.  Sure, it used to be terrible, but it is great now that it was buffed and now there is a lot of item synergy to make it better, at least if you have high might and intelligence.  50% damage, is really only like 20% later on because of the additive math.  On the other hand, being able to stay on your feet twice as long is always 100% more damage (well, maybe more like 70% because of additional DR from attacking more times).  Further, because the battle lasted longer, your allies had way more time to deal damage too.

 

Regardless, the relative merits of talents depend a great deal on your stats, class, items, and play style.  Without knowing that, it is impossible to say if something is good or bad.  Sneak Attack would be better on a low INT character, just because intelligence doesn't help it at all.  However, something like outlander's frenzy is much better with a higher intelligence because there is a duration component.  It also does +15% more damage (among other things) because of the might buff.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Absolutely. It gives you +15% damage per hit (as Appr. Sneak, but without the need to cause afflictions first) AND speeds you up. Only thing is you have to cast it first.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Boeroer

[ottffsse]

Aspirant's mark is a better investment on many classes and very good at 1 per encounter. 

 

but yeah, baby sneak attack on a off tank barb or dps fighter with a two hander? Very good (as long someone else is debuffing the enemy) . On a caster? You\re better off maxing out certain elemental damage spells and taking the appropriate talents like scion of flame and rime etc. 

[Braven]

Appr. Sneak attack I think is best for "alpha-strikes", aka, starting battle from stealth with a really big gun (or crossbow).  Because it is passive (and sneak attack works the first 2 seconds of combat), it is good if you do shoot and run tactics (or just shoot and kill).  Other abilities are better benefit-wise, but do take at least a little action time.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Braven

[MaxQuest]

Hmm..well, I've not tested to make sure it's working as written, but I don't think it works for spells.

Yeap, it doesn't work with spells. It writes: "+15% melee damage, +15% ranged damage".

But just in case have tested it with cipher powers (for example Mind Lance, could be considered "ranged", who knows).

Results: it doesn't add to cipher powers, except for Amplified Thrust and crush damage from Detonate. Who would have thought  otherwise.

Edited March 4, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I think it works with everything what also works with penetrating shot. So Mind Blades also should work, too. By the way Mind Blades with penetr. shot and Ryona's Vambraces is not sooo bad.