redneckdevil Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 None of them good or evil, Durance included. They just whoever u want them to be. Right now, I'm playing a Mafia Barbarian named Don Micheal Corleone and so far I got Eder, Mage, Durance, and the chanter (names have escaped me atm) and they are the beginning of my "family". My guy is straight up "I'll help ya if there's something in it for me and I'll always try to find a way to get more weither thru good or bad actions. So far the party fits in with what I'm roleplaying. They ain't good guys like my monk playthru, they just mafia characters now. There's no "good and evil", only flawed characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneckdevil Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Evil doesn't have to mean unbelievable motivations. Durance has killed the hollowborn, killed watchers for who they are, and voluntarily participated in religious pogroms. Those actions are objectively evil. Is he a well-written, believable character with understandable motivations? Mostly, yes. Actually none of those are evil with what he's done. Hollow born are born without souls, they vegetables unless u put another soul in them and then they eventually turn into "monsters". So he's basically either pulling the life support on a body that will do nothing but waste away or put down failed experiments. He hasn't actually killed any sane watchers, he's tried and seen them fail and become "broken". Lore wise, watchers are not a good thing to be because eventually if ur not strong enough u will eventually break and go "mad" like maerwald. Speeding up the process in a "controlled" evviroment is not evil, it's like putting a dog down who has rabies so that the dog won't eventually do harm and spread. Watchers can not be "undone" per se by normal means and tbh I think the one time it happened was a fluke. Since watchers will eventually go crazy, might as well test them and see if they break and get it over with so something can be done about them right then. He's a priest of a goddess of fire and warfare. Yes both are destructive but not evil, they just natural processes that u find in nature. They are tools that are used to cleansed and wipe away for something new to come up. Now how u used those tools can be evil, but the tools themselves are not, so can't really say he's evil for following the religious order. So Durance isn't a knight in shining armor "good", but he isn't evil either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
why Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 We're all flawed characters. I don't think the characters are who you want them to be. How you want to see them changes your perspective, but what they are is already baked into the writing. If the story allows you to impact them, then you can mold their character, but that has limits in a game. It also has limits in real life. A good character can go bad or simply do bad things through misguidance. A bad character can repent and redeem himself. That's all good, but the best you can do is help guide someone. He'll still be what he is and the only real change that can come, if it is ever to come, is through himself. Now, if you choose to see Durance as a good guy who has done bad things, cool. If you think there is no such thing as bad, I disagree but I accept that it's your perspective. If you think, as I do, that Durance is bad but redeemable but the opportunity for such redemption doesn't come during the game, then I'll pass you a beer and we'll celebrate our like mindedness. Finally, if you think Durance is a bad guy could never atone for his ass-hattery, then once again I'll disagree. As to truth, there is an objective truth. You might not know it. It may be beyond our capactity ever to know and understand it. There will remain, however, the truth. Forget morals, ethics, or religion. The facts remain and not knowing them doesn't cause them to cease to exist. Don't mistake the inability to quantify something in accordance with human understanding with a lack of reality. Note, I'm not talking religion or God. I'm talking about the universe and it's inner workings which, no matter how much they confound us, have within them a past, a process, and an outcome. In terms of situational ethics and the like, I have known a few people who insist they've never regretted anything they've done (although on extremely shaky philosophical grounds) I have not, however, known anyone who has done nothing regrettable. 1 bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckmann Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Evil doesn't have to mean unbelievable motivations. Durance has killed the hollowborn, killed watchers for who they are, and voluntarily participated in religious pogroms. Those actions are objectively evil. Is he a well-written, believable character with understandable motivations? Mostly, yes. No way, no how. It's the fact that Durance has done all these things yet had more or less good reasons for doing so that makes him a good character. The only objectively evil thing about Durance is the writing towards the end of the game. They should've just let Avellone do his thang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineth Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) Evil doesn't have to mean unbelievable motivations. Durance has killed the hollowborn, killed watchers for who they are, and voluntarily participated in religious pogroms. Those actions are objectively evil. Is he a well-written, believable character with understandable motivations? Mostly, yes. No way, no how. It's the fact that Durance has done all these things yet had more or less good reasons for doing so that makes him a good character. I don't think he had good reasons many of those things. Especially not the brutal religious persecution after the Saint's War was won and Eothas was no longer a threat. I'd say he did those things because he simply doesn't care about harm to innocents. His philosophy is basically that everyone should be made to suffer and that those who don't come out of it stronger were worthless (i.e. not worth caring about) to begin with. He would definitely be evil in the D&D spectrum. Edited March 1, 2016 by Ineth 2 "Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Evil doesn't have to mean unbelievable motivations. Durance has killed the hollowborn, killed watchers for who they are, and voluntarily participated in religious pogroms. Those actions are objectively evil. Is he a well-written, believable character with understandable motivations? Mostly, yes. No way, no how. It's the fact that Durance has done all these things yet had more or less good reasons for doing so that makes him a good character. The only objectively evil thing about Durance is the writing towards the end of the game. They should've just let Avellone do his thang. Evil people can have well-developed reasons for their actions. Magneto is a great villain because of this. No one has yet defended Durance's pogroms against Eothasians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymarsakar Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Durance is a follower of Magran, so technically he has a boss. That would mean he's just following orders, whether of his culture, his nation, or his god hierarchy. If they were willing to go deeper into this subject, it would have required them to link Durance to the main character's progression. That was not allowed, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
why Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 hehe Just following orders is a bad defense for what amounts to war crimes, but it's an even worse defense when you choose your boss. 2 bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymarsakar Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) hehe Just following orders is a bad defense for what amounts to war crimes, but it's an even worse defense when you choose your boss. That's why Durance got the spell power, to take care of those bounty hunters. The Dyrwood is kind of like the Wild West. If you run fast enough or have enough firepower, there is no Law. Justice is with whomever has the most firepower and gets there first. The Stasi got away with far more in East Germany. Edited March 2, 2016 by Ymarsakar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
why Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 hehe Just following orders is a bad defense for what amounts to war crimes, but it's an even worse defense when you choose your boss. That's why Durance got the spell power, to take care of those bounty hunters. The Dyrwood is kind of like the Wild West. If you run fast enough or have enough firepower, there is no Law. Justice is with whomever has the most firepower and gets there first. The Stasi got away with far more in East Germany. Fair enough, but he's still a bad guy. bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymarsakar Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) hehe Just following orders is a bad defense for what amounts to war crimes, but it's an even worse defense when you choose your boss. That's why Durance got the spell power, to take care of those bounty hunters. The Dyrwood is kind of like the Wild West. If you run fast enough or have enough firepower, there is no Law. Justice is with whomever has the most firepower and gets there first. The Stasi got away with far more in East Germany. Fair enough, but he's still a bad guy. Isn't that why Josh Sawyer designed the game for a psycho playthrough, for when a Watcher becomes "insane" and can't take it any more? Look at all those Meat Bags waiting to talk to the Watcher! Personally, that's not quite as satisfying as an RPG game flow or content story. But maybe to others, it is enough. Edited March 2, 2016 by Ymarsakar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crucis Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Evil doesn't have to mean unbelievable motivations. Durance has killed the hollowborn, killed watchers for who they are, and voluntarily participated in religious pogroms. Those actions are objectively evil. Not really. Nothing is "objectively" evil. What would be evil to one person would be considered kindhearted to another (yes, even the things you listed). And some might argue that the kind of moral relativism you're describing above is in and of itself "evil". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Following orders only fails as a defense if your side loses the war. With regards to Devil of Caroc she is not evil. Everyone she killed is a murdering arsonist, she never killed anyone who didn't have it coming. She's just rebalancing the scales of Justice, sort of like a renaissance era Josey Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkarov Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 hehe Just following orders is a bad defense for what amounts to war crimes, but it's an even worse defense when you choose your boss. Triple worse when you are actively trying to screw your boss over, your boss who is supposedly giving you orders won't actually talk to you, and you take personal joy from the things you are doing. Like torturing innocent town folk just because they (maybe, could be) worship Eothas (you think, probably). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Regarding Durance: I would say it's more complicated. We don't know what he was like Before Godhammer (henceforth referred to as BG), he did what he had to in order to stop a rampaging god-thing, and when you meet him he is thoroughly broken due to certain things that I don't think he is capable of coherent thought. He seems to genuinely believe he is helping by engaging in the purges and 'dealing' with Hollowborn. He is crazy and in Eora that is due to Soul issues... Doesn't matter what he was like before, he is in my party now not 5 years ago. Also lots of evil people in this world thought they were doing the "right thing". There isn't a saying "The road to hell is paved in good intentions" because doing what you think is right is always a good idea or morally sound. Matters quite a bit, as it means we don't know how much of his actions is due to the fact that he is, quite literally, insane. How much of his actions is due to being evil and how much is due to his state would be partly answered by knowing what kind of person he was before. He is not a psychopath, he is not working for his own benefit, on the contrary he is actually damaging his own goals due to the fact that he doesn't really know his own goals. As a Watcher, we get to see that his souls is damaged in horrendous ways, in one description it is described as sheared in half, and many of his actions are those of a schizophrenic, as soul damage is the cause of insanity in Eora. He talks about breaking a man's souls so it's like a bag of glass, but really he's talking of his own soul, which is why he switches personality so much. He calls Magran a whore, expresses anger towards her, and says that begging for her favour is pathetic, yet he is also desperate to try to regain her favour and is angry and upset that she seems to ignore him and is desperately trying to please her in any way he can. He claims he was sent to judge you, yet I suspect that it was more that one part of him deep down realised that he actually needs you and is desperate for help, he's literally pleading for help but in a completely bat**** crazy way and I suspect the previous Watchers he burnt was due to them being frauds or being unable to help him. The guy is not evil. He needs to be locked in a padded room, pumped full of drugs, and subjected to a series of therapy sessions. Unfortunately, playing the game we find out just what the sanitariums in Eora are like... 1 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkarov Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 The guy is not evil. He needs to be locked in a padded room, pumped full of drugs, and subjected to a series of therapy sessions. Unfortunately, playing the game we find out just what the sanitariums in Eora are like... Okay Dr. Phil. Unfortunately that place that was supposed to be your in game version of a psych ward was shown clearly to be sloppy science that achieved little to no results or at best vegged people in his condition. Likewise "a damaged soul" is just a symptom, technically the watcher has a "damaged soul". Yet you probably didn't go around killing people for thin reasons just because you enjoyed it. You also have no clue what he was like before the bomb, there is no evidence he was any less of a looney tune, and like I said, even if he was, he is judged based on what he does now not 5 years ago. Everyones soul also takes damage over time, yet no one is trying to say we shouldn't blame Raedric it is just his damaged soul!!!! No, Durance isn't a snowflake, he is no less disreputable, misguided, and worthy of revulsion that any of the other villains in the game. The only difference is he decides to fight on your team and bitch really loudly whenever you aren't a jerk to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckmann Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 [...] and bitch really loudly whenever you aren't a jerk to everyone. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkarov Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) [...] and bitch really loudly whenever you aren't a jerk to everyone. What? Lol you used him in your party right? There are many times he speaks out against things you do in multiple quests if they don't fall specifically in line with what he wants. Edited March 2, 2016 by Karkarov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 The guy is not evil. He needs to be locked in a padded room, pumped full of drugs, and subjected to a series of therapy sessions. Unfortunately, playing the game we find out just what the sanitariums in Eora are like... Okay Dr. Phil. Unfortunately that place that was supposed to be your in game version of a psych ward was shown clearly to be sloppy science that achieved little to no results or at best vegged people in his condition. Likewise "a damaged soul" is just a symptom, technically the watcher has a "damaged soul". Yet you probably didn't go around killing people for thin reasons just because you enjoyed it. You also have no clue what he was like before the bomb, there is no evidence he was any less of a looney tune, and like I said, even if he was, he is judged based on what he does now not 5 years ago. Everyones soul also takes damage over time, yet no one is trying to say we shouldn't blame Raedric it is just his damaged soul!!!! No, Durance isn't a snowflake, he is no less disreputable, misguided, and worthy of revulsion that any of the other villains in the game. The only difference is he decides to fight on your team and bitch really loudly whenever you aren't a jerk to everyone. Um, I believe I covered that the sanitariums in the game were inadequate with my last sentence. According to the lore of the game, mental illness is caused by damage to the soul. Why do you think so many Watchers go insane? Maerwald attacks you because of it. Durance doesn't go around killing people because he enjoys it either, he kills Hollowborn because he considers it his duty. And regarding having no clue what he was like before the godhammer bomb (which was more than five years ago, closer to twenty by the sounds of things actually since the Hollowborn appeared after it and the first ones have reached adolescence in order to become Wichts), that was my point! We have no idea what he was like before so we cannot know what is insanity and what is actually his real beliefs. He may have always been a evil sod, we don't know. All we know is that he is a incoherent madman now and Eora lacks support for those with mental illness. Nothing snowflakey about it. "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Likewise "a damaged soul" is just a symptom, technically the watcher has a "damaged soul". Um...no. A damaged soul is a *cause*, not a symptom. A soul, in this world, is a real actual object that can be quantified, studied, examined in detail, and yes even damaged. Souls can be damaged in many ways, and different kinds of damage create different kinds of effects. The kind of damage that creates a Watcher is different from the kind of damage that creates a Durance. That's what animancy is all about--learning the different effects that different things done to souls have. Durance is *broken*. Not in a metaphorical, emotionally damaged sense. He's actually broken--his soul has been damaged and he is no longer functioning correctly. Don't think of it as trauma. Think of it as TBI resulting in major personality changes resulting in what you see today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illathid Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 The guy is not evil. He needs to be locked in a padded room, pumped full of drugs, and subjected to a series of therapy sessions. Unfortunately, playing the game we find out just what the sanitariums in Eora are like... I'd contend that "Evil" and "Crazy" are not mutually exclusive conditions. 1 "Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic." -Josh Sawyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) The guy is not evil. He needs to be locked in a padded room, pumped full of drugs, and subjected to a series of therapy sessions. Unfortunately, playing the game we find out just what the sanitariums in Eora are like... I'd contend that "Evil" and "Crazy" are not mutually exclusive conditions. I would disagree. I think that in order to be evil, you have to consciously choose an action and be capable of understanding that the act in question is morally wrong. If you're crazy, you don't qualify under at least one of those requirements. Edited March 2, 2016 by Katarack21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymarsakar Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 The thing is, in some cultures the "crazy stuff" is actually normal. Check out Aztec priests and human hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkarov Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Don't think of it as trauma. Think of it as TBI resulting in major personality changes resulting in what you see today. I am still waiting to hear the part where you guys explain how this makes it so his actions aren't reprehensible, he is somehow not morally bankrupt, and is redeemable in some way. In fact the way you guys phrase it he is basically a dog with rabies and the only option now is to put the poor bugger down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Don't think of it as trauma. Think of it as TBI resulting in major personality changes resulting in what you see today. I am still waiting to hear the part where you guys explain how this makes it so his actions aren't reprehensible, he is somehow not morally bankrupt, and is redeemable in some way. In fact the way you guys phrase it he is basically a dog with rabies and the only option now is to put the poor bugger down. His actions are reprehensible, but he's not morally bankrupt because he's not capable of making good, rational, morally upright decisions. He is *broken*. The thoughts, ideas, concepts, and actions that he takes *seem* reasonable to him *because his soul is damaged and he's no longer functional*. He *might* be redeemable, if there were some way to repair the damage that was done to him so that he he's capable of making sane, rational decisions again. Durance is no more culpable for the things he says and does than a man in a deep, permanent psychotic state would be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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