[3.01] Devil of Caroc inferior to all other NPCs

[Doppelschwert]

I'm not sure if this is on purpose, but it is a well known fact among the players that the custom character 'Devil of Caroc' has more downsides than upsides. There are multiple threads dedicated to this topic and I'll just highlight two major issues.

 

1)

She only has 76 stat points instead of 78 like all other custom NPCs.

 

2)

Although she is stuck with her breastplate armor, there are no unique enchantments that would make up for the lack of player choice. Keeping the armor competetive would mean spending the most rare crafting ingredients on her while all other characters can just equip the superb armors you find in the game.

 

Before 3.0, there was also the issue of the racial ability not being very useful, but as immunities have been added, this is no longer a problem (at least for me).

 

Why am I complaining in this part of the forum? Because both 1) and 2) have been adressed for other characters in recent patches.

 

1)

The issue of a wrong stat spread has been resolved for Maneha in 3.01.

2)

Durance got unique enchants on both robe and staff in 3.00, Palegina got access to 2 exclusive talents as well, and apparently there is also a new talent for sagani.

 

Now I haven't played WM2 yet so I'm not sure if there is some side quest related upgrade for the armor of the devil, but I'll just be bold and petition for some upgrade of her armor and fair stats anyway.

 

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In case there is indeed no armor upgrade for the devil in WM2, I will now make the suggestion that it would be fitting if her armor was considered a weak soulbound armor whose upgrades are unlocked by the devil leveling up. That could grant her the armor quality enchantments on the apropriate level up to superb and maybe a weak passive ability like reduced armor penalty or something else that fits to the typical playstyle of a rogue.

 

If this is too much to ask for, at the very least consider giving her some custom unique ability for her armor for compensating the lack of choice the player has.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Doppelschwert

[AndreaColombo]

Zahua's attribute spread has also been fixed in 3.00--I was surprised the Devil's wasn't.

[HawkSoft]

In case there is indeed no armor upgrade for the devil in WM2, I will now make the suggestion that it would be fitting if her armor was considered a weak soulbound armor whose upgrades are unlocked by the devil leveling up. That could grant her the armor quality enchantments on the apropriate level up to superb and maybe a weak passive ability like reduced armor penalty or something else that fits to the typical playstyle of a rogue.

An interesting case.

 

It's not that the armour is bound to DoC but that DoC is bound to the armour, she is a bound soul.

I agree with the concept that DoC should be able to upgrade her armour but would like it to be done in keeping with PoE lore rather than against it.

 

Maybe the *missing* attribute points are a result of the armour being imperfect and she could regain them gradually as perks when levelling up?

[Doppelschwert]

I don't see how this is against PoE lore. The binding between the devil and her body goes in both directions - she is bound to the body so her soul can not leave, but the body is bound to her since she controls it.

 

The concept of soulbound, as I understand it, is not that different since fractions of the former owner are bound to the artifacts and give them their magical power. They are called soulbound because they need to make a connection to another soul as a catalyst to be unleashed.

 

I don't think it is that much of a stretch to consider her as a superior soulbound artifact since not only a fraction but her whole soul is tied to her body. Her being able to unleash that power slowly over time herself seems not out of place for me.

 

Besides, making her Armor soulbound would fix a lot of mechanical issues if one wants to upgrade the armor automatically over time. Ideally, the player should know that this is going to happen from the beginning and at the same time he should not be able to enchant the armor before he is intended to have the respective quality. Soulbound solves both these problems. It can also be easily tied to the overall story progression (one upgrade for her personal quest, one for resting in the white forge, for example).

[HawkSoft]

OK, sorry what I meant is that I'd like to see is that however you are able to upgrade DoC is should be supported by explicit law, maybe in a book or dialogue somewhere.

 

I don't consider DoC to be a superior example of Soulbound technology, almost unique amongst the Soulbound objects we encounter her body *decays* over time. I think it was a great achievement of the animancer to get it working at all.

 

I support the idea of being able to upgrade DoC in a lore/story led way rather that is tied to her quest(s) and levelling up rather than it being just another enchantment. Be nice is she had options that led to her losing the tag of *mass murderer* given that her body count is pretty tame compared to what most parties will have achieved by the time they meet her.

[Aarik D]

Hey guys!

 

I have written up a bug that Devil is short 2 attribute points. Currently her race: Advanced Construct doesn't provide any attribute points. As for her armor not getting any unique abilities, people often forget how many immunities she has. It. is. a. lot.

 

Devil's Immunities:

• Charm
• Dominated
• Confusion
• Unconsciousness
• Disease
• Poison
• Sickened

I'd say that is a pretty good trade for not being able to equip any unique armor on her. Plus, if you killed any dragons, you can make her breastplate Superb, you can use Durgan Steel to make it better, you can add any attribute stat you want.

 

Of course you guys already know all of this, I just making an argument on the case that shes already pretty good.  But I do appreciate your feedback and I will let the team know about it. I invite everyone to comment on how they feel about Devil, we really love hearing from everyone!

 

Thanks and keep on rockin!

[Doppelschwert]

Hey guys!

 

I have written up a bug that Devil is short 2 attribute points. Currently her race: Advanced Construct doesn't provide any attribute points. As for her armor not getting any unique abilities, people often forget how many immunities she has. It. is. a. lot.

 

Devil's Immunities:

• Blind
• Charm
• Dominated
• Confusion
• Unconsciousness
• Disease
• Poison
• Sickened

I'd say that is a pretty good trade for not being able to equip any unique armor on her. Plus, if you killed any dragons, you can make her breastplate Superb, you can use Durgan Steel to make it better, you can add any attribute stat you want.

 

Of course you guys already know all of this, I just making an argument on the case that shes already pretty good.  But I do appreciate your feedback and I will let the team know about it. I invite everyone to comment on how they feel about Devil, we really love hearing from everyone!

 

Thanks and keep on rockin!

 

Hey, thank you very much for the feedback and the bug report on the attributes!

Regarding the immunities, I'm probably not the best to gauge their usefulness (which means I actually don't have a feeling for how often they come up in fights relative to other afflictions, even though I played through several times), but I'll still make four arguments to consider:

 

1) Role of a Rogue

The armor not being unique is not necessarily the problem here but rather the choice of armor. It obviously makes thematic sense with the shock weakness and the material, but clashes with her role as a rogue. Since most rogue builds revolve around dealing damage and not being hit too often, the additional DR is not as relevant as the heavy attack rate penalty of 40% for the classes primary role. In the end, almost every rogue talent is about stacking damage multipliers for a limited time in some way, so attack speed is very important.

 

2) Potential in difficult fights

While there a lot of useful immunities, there is also the trade off of not being able to use food for buffing and drugs. In a way, the immunities are paid for by a lower baseline of stats in difficult fights and no field triage:

In a difficult fight, you may want to eat food for buffs and have your priest cast immunity to the relevant afflictions on the whole group and have defensive spells proced when your magical armor is being hit. In this scenario, the immunities don't add anything while you lose the buff to stats and the procs from unique armor.

Immunities are handy, yes, especially since I'm usually playing without a priest and scrolls, but there is a definite gap in potential power.

 

3) Ressources

While it is true that one can enchant her armor, there are a lot of superb armors in the base game and both expansions to outfit everyone in the party. I don't know about WM2, but in the base game and WM1 you can only have 2 superb enchantments for armor and durgan steel competes both with all weapons of the party and all armor and shields. You made so much cool loot that I would like to simultaneously use during the endgame that it feels like a waste to use these precious ressources on a plain breastplate instead of one of the cooler items.

 

4) Presentation

This is just a psychological issue, but if you feel like her immunities are enough to compensate both her racial ability and the lack of unique armor, it would feel better if you moved some of the immunities from her racial talent to her armor. The way its presented now, there is no clear connection between the immunities being supposed to take care of the lack of uniqueness. If you move them around, it becomes much clearer to see that 'this set of immunities is meant to be on par with the other racial talents' while 'that set of immunities is meant to be on par with other unique armor'. That and maybe starting the armor out as a fine or exceptional item would go a long way to feel like a special item even though it would have the same power as the current presentation.

 

 

I'm sorry if these suggestions come off as overly rude, since I'm very pleased with all the hard work you are putting into this great game!

I'm full aware that I just suggested a huge increase in power, but I just hope this can help you in some internal discussion.

And please don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a powergamer and expect her armor to be on par with the best available armor for free. But just some way to reach superb without touching the limited ressources and a low passive buff or a weak spell on proc would go a long way in my opinion.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Doppelschwert

[Doppelschwert]

I couldn't get anyone else to comment but I'm curious, what does the team think about these points?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Doppelschwert

[HawkSoft]

Devil is not a typical rogue, she was the unfortunate soul stuffed into an unusually good automaton to act as bodyguard and gopher for a crazed animancer, as such I think OBS did a pretty good job.

 

I agree that in presentation terms it would have felt better if some of the immunities had been properties of DoC's armour rather than her race but then I am sure you would have had (a few?) players killing her to grab the armour and then sulking when they found it could not be used.

[PX1player]

Honestly all I think Devil needs is to have reduced recovery penalty from her armor, seeing how she is bound/a part of it rather than just wearing it.

It would make her more useful as a rogue.

 

Btw, she's not immune to Stun or Fear?

Edited March 4, 2016 by PX1player

[lantzk]

She has the same immunities as other Vessels/Constructs -- a brief glance tells me that none of them are immune to stun, and only the rotting flesh construct is immune to fear.

 

As to your points, Doppelschwert -- I'm generally not convinced.

 

Presentation makes sense to me -- maybe make her Body a Unique Item though? I could get behind that. Ooh, raise its cash value too.

 

Her immunities are still relevant in difficult fights -- Priest will typically be protecting against stun/paralyze/fear. When Prayer Against Treachery is in play, I'll be glad to have a party member whose loyalty isn't tied to a short buff (and who doesn't need to be in the huddle to get it). 

 

You get more resources in the White March Part 2. Additionally, there are a number of Superb armors in the game.

 

I'm not going to argue with you about the role of the rogue. Suffice to say, I think she serves fine as one. I also think we might disagree vis a vis game design -- I enjoy that her lore and material circumstance conflict with her role. She's not a blank slate, as HawkSoft put it, she's a character. Does that change her function? Absolutely. Additionally, you give her the dexterity shoes, refine her armor, and give her the attack rate gloves -- she'll do just fine.

[Doppelschwert]

She has the same immunities as other Vessels/Constructs -- a brief glance tells me that none of them are immune to stun, and only the rotting flesh construct is immune to fear.

 

As to your points, Doppelschwert -- I'm generally not convinced.

 

Presentation makes sense to me -- maybe make her Body a Unique Item though? I could get behind that. Ooh, raise its cash value too.

 

Her immunities are still relevant in difficult fights -- Priest will typically be protecting against stun/paralyze/fear. When Prayer Against Treachery is in play, I'll be glad to have a party member whose loyalty isn't tied to a short buff (and who doesn't need to be in the huddle to get it). 

 

You get more resources in the White March Part 2. Additionally, there are a number of Superb armors in the game.

 

I'm not going to argue with you about the role of the rogue. Suffice to say, I think she serves fine as one. I also think we might disagree vis a vis game design -- I enjoy that her lore and material circumstance conflict with her role. She's not a blank slate, as HawkSoft put it, she's a character. Does that change her function? Absolutely. Additionally, you give her the dexterity shoes, refine her armor, and give her the attack rate gloves -- she'll do just fine.

 

Fair enough. I think that presentation is the most important of it all, so changing that would fix the perceived problem for me mostly.

 

Regarding the priest stuff, I'm probably in a bad position to talk about these things because I actually never take priests with me in the later half of the game, but my arguments are based around the impression I got from the more potent players. Still, the food buffs are rather effective - a few bonus damage percentage alone can make a difference.

 

Regarding the white march part 2 - I still haven't played it since I'll wait for the 3.02 patch, but it is nice to hear there will be more ressources. However, I think the devil should be balanced around the ressources you get in white march 1, since the white march 2 is completely optional.

I still think that having two ingredients for the best armor in the base game makes for a though choice. If you run without the devil and want everyone to wear superb armor, you can find something already superb for everyone and freely choose two types of gear you like very much and get it up to superb via enchtantment. If you want to use the devil, you have no choice but to upgrade her armor and can only upgrade one other piece of unique equipment.

 

My stance on this is simply:

In a game all about choice, the loss of choice should be compensated with a very attractive standard option. Devils armor denies you both the choice of uniques as well as the choice of the payoff between DR and attack speed. In return, you have to use limited ressources on her just to make her comparable to random gear you find and can mix and match with everyone else.

 

Regarding her function, I hope i did not come across the wrong way. I'm in no way a powergamer, and I don't care about her stat allocation or stuff like that. However, in my experience, the trade off between DR and attack speed on her doesn't shift her role, it just makes her worse all around, because the rogue is designed around damage.  Everything you do to remedy that problem would just help her even more with lighter armor.

And it is really noticeable. I used a custom npc version of her until I could recruit her. I gave the npc the same stats and the same equipment except a robe instead of her armor. Not surprisingly, she got much less effective after I replaced the npc with her and she would still die at roughly the same speed/in the same situations. If she was a fighter or another martial class, I would believe you in shifting her role because you can built them around it with certain talents, but the rogue really does not have a lot of defense oriented talents.

I'm not against changing the function of characters, to the contrary I really enjoy that, but I just don't see how you turn a rogue into something different from a glasscanon without getting very diminishing returns.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Doppelschwert