Cipher 3.0 - roll a Wizard instead

[Lychnidos]

 

There is another expansion comming after white march called ascension was a article on rpggamer for it

 

wat

 

 

The other PoE is getting an expansion called Ascendancy. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Cipher AI seems unchanged for to me.

 

There are a couple of issues with cipher AI though. 

 

-- Tendency to fire off low level powers rather than saving for high level ones. Not a big issue since most good powers are low level.

 

-- Tendency to cast powers at immune targets that you know are immune. The AI *loves* to fire Whisper of Treason at charm-immune targets, for example.

 

 

The other big issue I'd like to see addressed isn't so much a 3.0 issue as a guns issue; attack speed vs. reload speed. Most of the various speed enhancements --- including Time Parasite -- effect attack speed (i.e., your recovery animation) but do not effect gun reload speed (the reload animation). The result is that even if you use guns throughout your character's life, at high level you're better off respecializing into bows instead, simply because bows don't have a recovery animation and guns do. There's no real reason for the distinction and it forces people to ditch preferred playstyles. Especially since guns are so typically a cipher-associated weapon in this game, makes little sense to force high level ciphers away from gun use.

[Recklessly Impressionable]

Cipher 3.0 - roll a Wizard

 

lol, amen. Ciphers have been reduced to mediocre for a bit now, but for sure a wizard is better at this point. Here Chanters have finally been made decent with 3.0, then they do this to the Cipher.... 

 

Oh, Obsidian, the things you come up with

Edited January 30, 2016 by Recklessly Impressionable

[Wolken3156]

The Talisman of the Unconquerable suppresses Carow Golan. Booo! Don't make the mistake of making your Cipher addicted to the stuff if you want to use the Talisman.

 

EDIT: Sometimes it doesn't. It might be a bug.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Wolken3156

[Boeroer]

What the Frick? What are they doing?

"Let's raise the focus costs into stellar heights and then ruin any means of getting more focus"?

[Faerunner]

Wow, really?

 

How things have changed since I came back. When the game first came out, the ranger was one of the worst classes and the cipher was one of the best. (And of course I played the ranger, because I'm a glutton for punishment.) Fast-forward to 2016, and the ranger is now one of the best and the cipher is one of the worst. (And of course I felt like playing the cipher right as it got nurfed.)

 

Why am I always drawn to play classes right in that window of time when they're some of the worst in the game? 

[Raven Darkholme]

Wow, really?

 

How things have changed since I came back. When the game first came out, the ranger was one of the worst classes and the cipher was one of the best. (And of course I played the ranger, because I'm a glutton for punishment.) Fast-forward to 2016, and the ranger is now one of the best and the cipher is one of the worst. (And of course I felt like playing the cipher right as it got nurfed.)

 

Why am I always drawn to play classes right in that window of time when they're some of the worst in the game? 

That's what everyone says but not really true.

A ranger is still worse than a cipher, a cipher has so much more options.

Easier to play for ranger, yes.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Wow, really?

 

How things have changed since I came back. When the game first came out, the ranger was one of the worst classes and the cipher was one of the best. (And of course I played the ranger, because I'm a glutton for punishment.) Fast-forward to 2016, and the ranger is now one of the best and the cipher is one of the worst. (And of course I felt like playing the cipher right as it got nurfed.)

 

Why am I always drawn to play classes right in that window of time when they're some of the worst in the game? 

 

 

I don't think Ciphers are quite bad or "worst in the game." (Personally I think my least favorite class is rogues). They're just . . . a lot less "wow" than they used to be. They used to be a sort of 2/3rds caster | 1/3rd rogue hybrid and now it feels like it's the other way around. You spend a lot more time shooting and a lot less time casting.

 

Anyway, further update:

 

Greater Focus is a much much more valuable talent now. Unlike it's description it gives +10 to your base focus also, which is a HUGE jump in terms of letting you cast a powerful opener. 

[HawkSoft]

Just loaded up my L13 cipher led party in the 3.0 Beta, they have cleared WM-1 and I sent them on a bit of bounty hunting (Aedyr slavers and Rauatai pirates).

 

Playing on normal the protagonist is nerfed, despite being armed with Boressaine and Tall Grass he just couldn't get enough focus to make a significant contribution with his powers. Despite a couple of anxious moments the party defeated both sets of villains easily but the cipher was being *carried* by the rest of the part. Up to that point he had been the leading damage dealer in the party, in the 2 fights he used one L3 power (Ecto-Echo), the rest were L1/L2, he just wasn't generating enough focus…

 

 

In comparison, at L7/8 GM was a useful harasser (using L1/2 powers) when under the AI's control which, I suspect, is more efficient at picking focus generating targets than I am. This is OK, but boring, for a companion character, it's not OK for the protagonist.

 

I could improve the cipher by re-specking him to pick a wider variety of L1/L2 powers and drop but why?

[Elric Galad]

Just loaded up my L13 cipher led party in the 3.0 Beta, they have cleared WM-1 and I sent them on a bit of bounty hunting (Aedyr slavers and Rauatai pirates).

 

Playing on normal the protagonist is nerfed, despite being armed with Boressaine and Tall Grass he just couldn't get enough focus to make a significant contribution with his powers. Despite a couple of anxious moments the party defeated both sets of villains easily but the cipher was being *carried* by the rest of the part. Up to that point he had been the leading damage dealer in the party, in the 2 fights he used one L3 power (Ecto-Echo), the rest were L1/L2, he just wasn't generating enough focus…

 

 

In comparison, at L7/8 GM was a useful harasser (using L1/2 powers) when under the AI's control which, I suspect, is more efficient at picking focus generating targets than I am. This is OK, but boring, for a companion character, it's not OK for the protagonist.

 

I could improve the cipher by re-specking him to pick a wider variety of L1/L2 powers and drop but why?

 

Which confirms what was said previously : Ectopsychic is just too powerful, dealing damage it isn't even suppose to do (such a fun concept by the way) while other power except lvl 1 & 2 will not be used anymore.

 

Ectotpsychic Echo and Amplified wave are what made cipher "a bit too good". 

 

I don't agree about greater focus : it used to be "2 free level" of cipher power. Now it is just 1 level. It doesn't worth it.

10 focus are now a smaller fraction of cipher powers (except lvl 1 of course).

 

 

Petitioning : Please obsidian, restore focus, keep amplified wave and tactical meld nerfed, and nerf Ectophyschic (but not to the ground, please) !

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

Ectotpsychic Echo and Amplified wave are what made cipher "a bit too good". 

 

I don't agree about greater focus : it used to be "2 free level" of cipher power. Now it is just 1 level. It doesn't worth it.

10 focus are now a smaller fraction of cipher powers (except lvl 1 of course).

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but now you need that extra power level of focus a lot more. Back at release Greater Focus was a total waste -- there wass just no situation where you needed it. Focus was never really a limiting factor, because you started each fight with so much more.

 

Now you need focus constantly. I finally found a talisman of the unconquerable and I'm equipping it over the +3 dex or +3 per cloaks. So Greater Focus makes a bigger practical difference now, than it did before.

 

Personally I feel like Ecto and Amplified are about where they should be now, given what they cost (well, amplified wave's duration, like mental binding's, is a little short now given the cost). Personally I'd like to see the other cipher powers (i.e., the rank 4 and 5 ones, and the rank 3 powers that aren't Ecto) improved a bit. The big problem with Ciphers right now isn't the focus, it's that after they build all that focus there are a lot of levels where they don't have much to do with it. 

 

I've tried out a few different weapons and so far (level 12) I still keep going back to Leadspitter. Fellstroke seemed like it might be worthwhile but it just didn't quite keep up. It might be worth keeping in reserve for bosses with very high DR. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[HawkSoft]

With the current beta build [v3.00.929 PX1-Steam] I do not believe ranged ciphers are a worthwhile choice for protagonist and if I wanted a melee build I'd go paladin or possibly rogue.

 

For companion ciphers the build options seem to be limited: greater focus, biting whip and the best firearm available (=Lead Spitter) seem to be obligatory.

 

 

I wonder what the next *balance* iteration will bring 

[HawkSoft]

I've just re-armed my cipher with Pliambo per Casitàs (a nice arquebus) and treated myself to an Amplified Wave when tackling the next crop of bounty villains (Foemyna). It was the only power the cipher used in the fight, he just had enough focus to do something interesting with as the last opponent went down.

 

Aloth opened with Expose Vulnerabilities and then switched to damage dealing, it was all over rather quickly.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I've just re-armed my cipher with Pliambo per Casitàs (a nice arquebus) and treated myself to an Amplified Wave when tackling the next crop of bounty villains (Foemyna). It was the only power the cipher used in the fight, he just had enough focus to do something interesting with as the last opponent went down.

 

Aloth opened with Expose Vulnerabilities and then switched to damage dealing, it was all over rather quickly.

 

 

Yeah this sounds like the big difference between our experiences is that you're playing on Normal and I'm playing on PotD. On normal I bet everything does get absolutely wiped out long before the cipher gains up enough focus to use the higher level powers. 

 

That said even on PotD Aloth and Hiravias and Durance are definitely contributing more to the fight and have been since about level 5. There's just that string of levels from 5 to 10 where Wizards get so many useful tools -- arduous delay, expose vulnerabilities, combusting wounds, wall of fire, wall of force, etc. -- and Ciphers just, well, don't. Same is true for the other casters too -- Durance gets the prayer against spells, Druids get things like Returning Storm and party heals, so on so forth.

 

On PotD the fights take a lot longer so there's enough time for a few gain/spend cycles. For reference I'm using a fairly standard blunderbuss build -- 19 dex/int/per base, 12 might, wood elf, angio's gambeson, talisman of the unconquerable, leadspitter with exceptional/corrosive, greater focus, biting whip, draining whip, penetrating shot, ruffian.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Wolken3156]

I've just re-armed my cipher with Pliambo per Casitàs (a nice arquebus) and treated myself to an Amplified Wave when tackling the next crop of bounty villains (Foemyna). It was the only power the cipher used in the fight, he just had enough focus to do something interesting with as the last opponent went down.

 

Aloth opened with Expose Vulnerabilities and then switched to damage dealing, it was all over rather quickly.

Amplified Wave from my experience with the Beta is not worth it... at all. If you wanted to mass prone you'd be better off using Calling the World's Maw, Call to Slumber or Slicken, all of which can be used right from the start without having to build Focus.

 

Actually the level 6 and 7 powers in general are just worthless now. Mind Plague would be alright but you can get the same thing from Confusion. Disintegrate is far too costly to use and you can't risk missing with it, plus its range is painfully short. Time Parasite is worthless when you can just drink a Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and cast Arduous Delay of Motion. Stasis Shell is almost identical in function to Beetle Shell which is acquired much earlier in the game, with the only real advantage being its ability to target enemies with it instead of only allies.

 

The level 5 and lower powers are fine though. Whisper of Treason, Borrowed Instinct, Wild Leech, Ectopsychic Echo, Recall Agony, Pain Link and Secret Horrors are all still very powerful. They're probably not worth using outside of PotD though but I wouldn't really know. I have almost no experience with any of the lower difficulties, once you PotD you never look back =/

[HawkSoft]

Amplified Wave from my experience with the Beta is not worth it... at all. If you wanted to mass prone you'd be better off using Calling the World's Maw, Call to Slumber or Slicken, all of which can be used right from the start without having to build Focus.

 

I agree with you that Amplified Wave is no longer worth the focus, I just tried it to see what it felt like in terms of a *return on investment* (poor).

 

 

BTW I'm happy being a *wuss* and playing on normal thanks

[Wolken3156]

BTW I'm happy being a *wuss* and playing on normal thanks

You're missing out!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

I agree with you that Amplified Wave is no longer worth the focus, I just tried it to see what it felt like in terms of a *return on investment* (poor).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Y'all are starting to convince me on this also. I've kinda rushed through levels 10-12 because bounties give so much experience, so I'd only used it a few times last night and it seemed to be doing its old job pretty well. I could tell the area of effect was smaller than I remembered but it was still large enough.

 

After I saw y'all's comments I did another bounty and looked more closely at the damage and duration numbers it was inflicting and yeah it's just too small an effect for the investment. Part of it is the general problem of effect not having been upscaled with cost, and part of it is that (much like with Mental Binding) they seem to have cut the duration & damage in a previous round of nerfs.

 

Net effect is that it's nigh-impossible to play a cipher as a crowd controller any more. Wizards (and even arguably druids, with returning storm) are just better at it because they can keep dropping spells on the battlefield and keep things locked up. Ciphers can't -- even with a maxed out build they can't generate focus fast enough to keep things locked down.

 

My cipher is still leading the party in damage done totals but I suspect that's more an artifact of soul shock, ecto, and rushing Leadspitter than it is anything else. Pain Link may have done a lot too but it's hard to tell since that damage doesn't show in the log.

 

My overall recommendation at this point is that if they're going to keep this change in place, they need to increase the durations and damage of all Cipher powers (possibly excepting Echo) in proportion to the amount their focus cost was increased. (I.e., mental binding's duration needs to increase by 25% or so, etc.) That's just a general suggestion and some powers may need individual tweaking (for example Puppet Master probably needs to be at least doubled in duration because it's competing with Whisper of Treason at 1/3rd the cost; ectopsychic echo can probably be left as-is).

Edited February 1, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Elric Galad]

So your proposal is to accept focus change and buff all cipher powers except Echo.

 

Mine is to keep focus as it was and nerf Echo.

 

It seems that both would be equivalent. I guess that the dev are going to choose the easiest path... or not.

[HawkSoft]

Maybe Echo should be a level or two higher and one of the less useful high level powers can be demoted?

[Boeroer]

The easiest way would have been: nerf Echo, Amplified Wave and Tactical Meld and leave the rest as it was. The nerfing of the cipher drugs is enough to reduce focus gain. Carow Gloan was really powerful - now it's just crap. I will never use it - don't know about others, but I think it's not worth it. +20% focus gain (that gets suppressed by items enchantment) and -4 INT. Who wants to take that?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

So your proposal is to accept focus change and buff all cipher powers except Echo.

 

Mine is to keep focus as it was and nerf Echo.

 

It seems that both would be equivalent. I guess that the dev are going to choose the easiest path... or not.

 

Eh, I honestly think that most of the higher-tier cipher powers need a buff regardless. It's just that at release it didn't matter because Mental Binding and Amplified Wave were so good, you could use those two (plus a couple other powers like mental blast) to build a decent crowd control cipher. None of the powers were balanced, but because some were too good, it didn't matter that the others were awful.

 

Once they nerfed those two powers, ciphers didn't have much really powerful left, but what they did have, they could spam, so that made up for it -- no single big whalloping spells, but you could still keep a battlefield locked up by spamming your relatively weak effects. Wizards were kings of big effect lockdown (confusion, etc.) but they couldn't sustain it. 

 

Now, you can't spam your effects because they cost too much, AND they're weak because they were all balanced for spamming.

 

I'm presuming the devs had some good reason for implementing this change -- maybe the White March II content just got too wrecked by ciphers or something -- but the net result is that ciphers don't have a role.

 

I don't think Echo needs a nerf. It's a very powerful power but every class has a couple of abilities that are crazy good. Returning Storm, Consecrated Ground, Arduous Delay, Expose Vulnerabilities, Combusting Wounds, etc. Ecto is fun to use and requires some thought and maneuvering so there's nothing wrong with making it powerful.

 

Why do you think Tactical Meld needs a nerf? I find it very situational and only really useful for boss fights. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[wiarygodny]

The easiest way would have been: nerf Echo, Amplified Wave and Tactical Meld and leave the rest as it was. The nerfing of the cipher drugs is enough to reduce focus gain. Carow Gloan was really powerful - now it's just crap. I will never use it - don't know about others, but I think it's not worth it. +20% focus gain (that gets suppressed by items enchantment) and -4 INT. Who wants to take that?

I don't. I think that cipher will be really weak now, even if you use the best cipher builds.

[Boeroer]

Tactical Meld was so good because it basically cost no focus. You could cast it before starting the encounter - your focus would be resetted when encounter starts. They nerfed that and it's OK. The other good thing was/is that you don't need to overcome any defense since you cast it on an ally. But the power is way too costly for only +20 ACC now.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Not sure about you guys, but to me speed is the ultimate source of power. Being able to unleash phenomenal cosmic powers three hours after the fight ensued means nothing to me—and right now Ciphers don't even have phenomenal cosmic powers. I like fast-paced combat and always play with characters that dish out lots of damage really fast. Fighters, Monks, Rogues, Rangers, Wizards, Druids etc. are all able to do that. Chanters and Ciphers aren't. I can excuse Chanters, since they're mostly meant as support characters (same goes for Priests), but Ciphers should be an offensive class; there is no excuse for offensive classes to be slow. You're slow, you're out; by the time you're ready to do your move, all enemies have been wiped by the fast guys.