Cipher 3.0 - roll a Wizard instead

[azmodael]

 

Ciphers have been rebalanced so that their powers cost 10 focus per level. E.G. 10 focus for 1st level power, 50 focus for 5th level power.

 

 

Blacsonn: +3 Perception, +25 Resist vs. Ground, -2 Dexterity, Crash: -3 Might, -2 Dex

 

Yep, yet another major nerf to Ciphers. It is now a glorified rogue that can cast 2 spells/encounter.

Edited January 25, 2016 by azmodael

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

Ciphers have been rebalanced so that their powers cost 10 focus per level. E.G. 10 focus for 1st level power, 50 focus for 5th level power.

 

 

Blacsonn: +3 Perception, +25 Resist vs. Ground, -2 Dexterity, Crash: -3 Might, -2 Dex

 

Yep, yet another major nerf to Ciphers. It is now a glorified rogue that can cast 2 spells/encounter.

 

As soon as the final version of 3.0 comes out on GOG I will gladly pick a cipher again.

Heck I might even take Grieving Mother to make it interesting.

[Boeroer]

Carow Golan also got nerfed. It now only gives +20% focus gain (not +4 per hit) while gimping your stats. 

Amplified Wave got nerfed a lot, Tactical Meld also. 

 

When this changes survive the beta I will never touch a cipher again.

[DreamWayfarer]

Yeah, it sucks. Ciphers had a feel individualy OP spells, like Echo, but why did they nerf the whole class? Right when I was thinking of doing a cipher playthrough.

[PrimeJunta]

Hmmm... I'm not sure about this. I thought ciphers were a bit OP, as they could effectively open with their highest-level power (on every other level anyway), and racked up enough focus to do it again in a shot or two. This nerf sounds pretty drastic though; it won't be fun if it becomes another chanter who does nothing until it's too late to make a difference. Let's see where it ends up.

[HawkSoft]

Most chanters are ranged and need squishies to harvest focus from.

Yes, in some fights you have more focus than you could possibly use but in many tough fights my cipher has been reduced to plinking away in the hope of gaining any focus at all. Key thing is DR of enemies and/or piercing immunities.

 

I stopped running 2 ciphers in a party (mid game) because there was not enough potentially harvestable focus to go around (normal difficulty).

[evilcat]

I have the feeling that cataloge "Character Builds, strategies & Unity Engine" should contain builds, party comps and other "Estoc vs Greatsword" topics, not compains about nerfs. Valuable beta feedback would look better in General Discussion. It would be even better if Mods would make a separete cataloge for "Beta feedback and suggestions". However this is community forum, so community could make mess here as well. ;-)

 

It is a bit disappointing since from the topic title i expected something like heavy melee pike cipher, who is more autoattack focused (or something like that). But it was trap. (

 

The good thing about nerf:

- can play cipher (my favorite class) witout feeling i pick easiest class, more attencion to party

- steering ciphers to more arcane warrior style (50% AA, 50% casting) which is different

[Boeroer]

I think the key is the amount of focus with which they start. If it's too high they will use one of their best powers to open a fight. Raining th costs of all powers may solve that issue, but at the same time also makes them completely bad. Would have been less drastical to lower the amount of focus they have at the beginning of a fight. I mean a monk also has 0 wounds when the fight starts. A chanter has 0 phrases. A cipher can start casting right away. THAT would have been a nerf that makes sense. This is not.

[Boeroer]

95% autoattack, 5% casting would be more accurate now...

Edited January 25, 2016 by Boeroer

[evilcat]

There are different aproaches. For example we could play Cipher as primary CC, so for that style starting with high focus is important.

Making powers really different in cost sounds very good, since that makes real and fluent tradeoff using a lot of low level powers or one high level, cast small effect now, or wait for bigger.

Other aproach would be buffing Greater Focus to fallow new values.

And as we are it buffing Draining Whip. (assuming new cipher is now below class avg)

Or revoke starting focus change, back to 50% max, so cipher can start big but need to chill for longer, that is always some balance.

Also high level powers could have effects match new cost (buff them) high price high value.

Edited January 25, 2016 by evilcat

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I've been playing a cipher in the new beta and so far the changes aren't that bad, but I'm only up to level seven so far so it'll take me a while to evaluate the high-level gameplay. 

 

Most of the cipher's staple powers are low-level anyway -- eyestrike, mental binding, soul shock, whisper of treason -- so still are fairly cheap; ciphers have already been mostly about the low-level powers.  And you can still get fairly big chunks of focus from Leadspitter hits. 

 

So the real difference is just that now you can't open with your biggest spell like a Wizard can. You have to choose between either opening with a low-level power, or opening with a physical attack and then working up the focus for a higher-level power. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[DreamWayfarer]

Hmmm... I'm not sure about this. I thought ciphers were a bit OP, as they could effectively open with their highest-level power (on every other level anyway), and racked up enough focus to do it again in a shot or two.

Maybe at high levels, when all casters are OP. Honestly, I have severe restart syndrome, so I can't say much about highter levels.

[Boeroer]

This would be true if they made the low level spells cheaper, left the ones in the middle alone and increased the costs of the high power levels (while fine-tuning some of them because at the moment nobody likes them). But they just made everything (exept lvl 1) more expensive AND nerfed two of the best powers while also nerfing the cipher drugs. Ok, +4 per hit with Carow Gholan was a bit cheesy with Blunderbuss and Retaliation - but they could have changed that to +50% or 40% instead. Not 20%. It lowers your stats while it gives you +20% bonus focus and you can't cook it yourself... yeah great.

 

What does +3 for Draining Whip mean? 

Don't get your infos from the wiki - it's totally outdated.

At the moment it gives you +20% focus gain. If you gain 10 focus normally you would now get 12 with Draining Whip - whoohoo! I mean it's ok - but not superpowerful at all.

 

 

If they now buff focus generation then I will bite into my pillow. That would be the same as if they lowered the starting focus - what would have been less work and would have caused less trouble.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

This would be true if they made the low level spells cheaper, left the ones in the middle alone and increased the costs of the high power levels (while fine-tuning some of them because at the moment nobody likes them).. . . .

 

 . . .

If they now buff focus generation then I will bite into my pillow. That would be the same as if they lowered the starting focus - what would have been less work and would have caused less trouble.

 

 

High level cipher powers have always been a little strange because two-thirds of them were useless or weirdly situational, and the remaining third were so powerful it almost felt cheap to use them at all (amplified wave, Ringleader, etc.) Most of the really good cipher powers are low level and thus still fairly cheap (first level powers are unchanged; Mental Binding costs 15 instead of 20 now; Ectopsychic Echo is 30 instead of 20). 

 

Last time I did a cipher playthrough I barely even used the high-level powers; i expect this change won't change that all that much. 

 

 

What I *do* think they need to do is lengthen the *durations* of some Cipher powers. They've cut down the durations on a lot of them already, but coupled with the cost increases, the pacing of Cipher fights has really changed. If it takes you a minute to work up the focus to cast something, you want it to last more than ten seconds. 

 

I agree that the drug changes are bad. There's little reason to use any of them now.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

So they nerfed something that was already useless - and because of that it's not a real nerf? That can't be a justification.

 

Then it would be better to cut off all powers above lvl 3 and just give the high-lvl-cipher some means of using the low level ones better (longer duration, more damage, shorter casting time...).

 

Not all high lvel powers are bad though - or WERE. Tactical Meld was awesome. You could cast it out of combat (ok, a bit cheesy) and you didn't have to overcome any defense to get +20ACC. But now you need so much focus for this that this +20 ACC will never influence the next power you cast - because you won't have any focus left and it will take forever to cast anything else. Tactical Meld will wear off before you can cast any other power. Now it's solely helping you to hit your foes better with your weapon for a short time.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Most Cipher powers now cost more Focus than they are worth. If I'm to play a Cipher never to use their powers, I'd rather roll a Fighter.

 

Mental Binding already underwent a nerf in 2.03—there was no need to increase its cost; 7th-level powers were already fairly useless as they were, without the massive cost increase.

 

If the argument in favor of the nerf boils down to Amplified Wave, it would have sufficed to nerf that power. Which was done, alongside a cost increase for all powers and the elimination of any convenient Focus booster.

 

Now Ciphers are weak.

Edited January 25, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Exactly. Like I said: the new old ranger.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 But now you need so much focus for this that this +20 ACC will never influence the next power you cast - because you won't have any focus left and it will take forever to cast anything else. Tactical Meld will wear off before you can cast any other power. Now it's solely helping you to hit your foes better with your weapon for a short time.

 

 

Yeah, this is why the high level powers need longer durations now. 

 

It is a "real nerf". I won't say the high level powers "needed" a nerf because this is a single player game, but some of them did trivialize gameplay. You could just slam Amplified Wave every fight without limitation or thought.  So I understand why they're making this change. (And don't forget, they've already cut initial starting focus too, down from half of max focus like it was at release, to a quarter). 

 

But the secondary effect -- as you point out -- is that now some of the higher level CC and buffing powers cost so much focus for such short durations that it's impossible to really use them effectively. The pacing of cipher fights has changed. You work for a minute of gameplay to build focus for something, you want a significant duration to that effect.

[HawkSoft]

Given that all the passive healing abilities EG (un)constant recovery also have shorter durations (so you don't want to prolong fights) now it looks like the cipher will only be useful after the fight has ended

[Raven Darkholme]

Totally agree with evilcat and Dr. Hieronymus posts here.

Idk how much you others abused the cipher before, but to me it was a very cheap and awesome class.

The gun cipher even got a little stronger with WM, because of Fellstroke.

If you limit yourself to this weapon you now have soul whip with sneak attack combined, Idk if you can further enhance this with the mc talent.

Up till Amplified Wave, Ectopsychic Echo is super powerful.

Amplified Wave was way too strong and spamable, I'm sorry.

This did not get fixed that much by immunities, for me the damage was always the main effect, prone often didn't hit because of high Fort.

[Boeroer]

A nerf of Amplified Wave (smaller AoE, less damage), Ring Leader (shorter duration, smaller AoE) and Tactical Meld (not usable before combat anymore) and also Ectopsychic Echo (less damage) would have been totally ok. Still doesn't explain why they nerfed EVERY power above lvl 1. Even the balanced ones. It's ok if the powers of a cipher are a bit weaker than the spells of the other casters since he has a kind of per encounter mechanic - but that doesn't mean you have to make the casting above lvl 3 comletely useless. Now they still can spam low-level spells but will never cast Desintegration or  Borrowed Instincts and whatnot.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

now it looks like the cipher will only be useful after the fight has ended

 

 

Actually I'll admit that for the higher level powers at least that might actually be a concern if you aren't playing on PotD. On PotD though so far it isn't an issue. The Cipher is just the closer instead of the opener now.

 

edit: it might not be an issue, I just haven't played with these changes on Normal or Hard so I can't speak to them. I can say it isn't a concern on PotD.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[HawkSoft]

 

now it looks like the cipher will only be useful after the fight has ended

 

 

Actually I'll admit that for the higher level powers at least that might actually be a concern if you aren't playing on PotD. On PotD though so far it isn't an issue. The Cipher is just the closer instead of the opener now.

I'll admit to only playing on normal.

[Boeroer]

I'm only playing PotD and can't see how this statement makes the situation any better.

 

You have to admit it: it's just too much. As I said: no problem with a nerf of certain abilities. But demotivate players to use all powers above lvl 3 can't be the way.

[Boeroer]

So we nerf a class so that it's only working on PotD? WTF???

Edited January 25, 2016 by Boeroer