The Rape of Europe

[Sakai]

The real solution is mass deportation and a barrier to immigration from certain countries and economic segments in general. Requiring knowledge of the native tongue is a simple and very good barrier (for everyone except the english speaking countries). Everything else takes too long, is too expensive and uncertain.

Of course. Just build a wall and every problem will be solved. That seems to be a popular sentiment around the world right now.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The real solution is mass deportation and a barrier to immigration from certain countries and economic segments in general. Requiring knowledge of the native tongue is a simple and very good barrier (for everyone except the english speaking countries). Everything else takes too long, is too expensive and uncertain.

Of course. Just build a wall and every problem will be solved. That seems to be a popular sentiment around the world right now.

 

 

No, that problem will be solved. When you want to drive a nail in you take a hammer. You can do it with your forehead, but the result will be painful and you won't get much done. As is evident from everything that has been going on this past year.

[Sakai]

No, that problem will be solved. When you want to drive a nail in you take a hammer. You can do it with your forehead, but the result will be painful and you won't get much done. As is evident from everything that has been going on this past year.

If you cut your finger, take the whole arm off. No arm, no problem. An easy, not terribly complicated solution that doesn't take any time. Perfect.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sakai

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

No, that problem will be solved. When you want to drive a nail in you take a hammer. You can do it with your forehead, but the result will be painful and you won't get much done. As is evident from everything that has been going on this past year.

If you cut your finger, take the whole arm off. No arm, no problem. An easy, not terribly complicated solution that doesn't take any time. Perfect.

 

 

The fallacy is treating this problem as:

1. your own (as if the native population is to blame for it)

2.  something you're obligated to solve in any other way than what's the best for you 

[Sakai]

The fallacy is treating this problem as:

1. your own (as if the native population is to blame for it)

2.  something you're obligated to solve in any other way than what's the best for you 

Well, some might say that the way immigration was handled was pretty bad. So in a sense, "native population" is not completely blameless. And i'm absolutely thinking in terms of what's best for me. I live in Russia, multicultural, multireligious country. I have no desire whatsoever to barricade myself from anyone. I want to leave in peace with everyone and i would rather take a long and hard route than an easy and fast one if it meant acheiving that goal. And btw, one thing i have to add. No one has been convicted yet, investigation is still ongoing. Yet you act as if you already know who exactly is responsible and why. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Looks like what i said earlier, that you don't really care who's guilty here. You hate muslims and this is a chance to hate on them a little bit more. 

[Woldan]

I want to leave in peace with everyone and i would rather take a long and hard route than an easy and fast one if it meant achieving that goal.

Thats easily said if you are not the one who has to make the hard sacrifices of the long hard route. To get a full picture of the consequences of something like mass immigration talk with the rape victims first and tell them such sacrifices are necessary, that its part of a hard long route to peace. Edited January 9, 2016 by Woldan

[Sakai]

Thats easily said if you are not the one who has to make the hard sacrifices of the long hard route. To get a full picture of the consequences of something like mass immigration talk with the rape victims first and tell them such sacrifices are necessary, that its part of a hard long route to peace.

Just in case you don't know, Moscow has pretty significant problems with immigration and terrorism too. And i oppose building walls here just as much as in Europe.

[Malcador]

Not surprised this happened. Should have kept them penned up for a while. Well hopefully the ones that assaulted the women get shipped back to Syria and die.

[Malcador]

 

 

The real solution is mass deportation and a barrier to immigration from certain countries and economic segments in general. Requiring knowledge of the native tongue is a simple and very good barrier (for everyone except the english speaking countries). Everything else takes too long, is too expensive and uncertain.

Of course. Just build a wall and every problem will be solved. That seems to be a popular sentiment around the world right now.

So what is your solution then?

[Sakai]

So what is your solution then?

Well, considering we don't even know yet if there is a problem, my solution to it would be better integration. Education, jobs, control. As i said, Moscow has trouble with immigration too. And there're a lot people who think just like that, let's deport all of them and be done with it. Of course these people don't bother themselves with trying to actually understand the issue. Because if they did, they would see that the real issue are not immigrants per se, but corrupt goverment, police and business, who all profit of people who are practically used as slaves. No wonder some of them then become criminals. Obviously, the situation in Europe is probably a little bit different, still i imagine the solution is mostly the same. It's just a matter of creating a system that works. 

[213374U]

 

The more i read discussions about this and other similar topics, the more i get the feeling that a lot of people really couldn't care less about the victims or finding real solutions to the problem. They just want something that confirms their own agenda. Disappointing. 

The real solution is mass deportation and a barrier to immigration from certain countries and economic segments in general. Requiring knowledge of the native tongue is a simple and very good barrier (for everyone except the english speaking countries). Everything else takes too long, is too expensive and uncertain.

 

Haha. In the late 90's and early 2000's we had a "problem" over here with Eastern European and especially former Yugoslavs basically taking over organized crime. Assaults, extortion, drug and arms trade, women trafficking, murder for hire, you name it. These guys did it all. The level of violence they employed was unheard of back then (given that many of them were ex-military) and they were significant enough that law enforcement had to be reorganized to deal with them. Many, especially in the media, were quick to jump on the xenophobia bandwagon. Total amount was less than 200k back then, imagine the "overrepresentation" in crime statistics.

 

Guess we should have deported everyone originating from beyond the Stettin-Trieste line en masse, right?

 

Go on, explain to me why folks from your (former) country are fundamentally different and don't deserve such treatment. And don't forget, always warm up properly before performing mental gymnastics.

[Sarex]

Haha. In the late 90's and early 2000's we had a "problem" over here with Eastern European and especially former Yugoslavs basically taking over organized crime. Assaults, extortion, drug and arms trade, women trafficking, murder for hire, you name it. These guys did it all. The level of violence they employed was unheard of back then (given that many of them were ex-military) and they were significant enough that law enforcement had to be reorganized to deal with them. Many, especially in the media, were quick to jump on the xenophobia bandwagon. Total amount was less than 200k back then, imagine the "overrepresentation" in crime statistics.

 

 

 

Guess we should have deported everyone originating from beyond the Stettin-Trieste line en masse, right?

 

Go on, explain to me why folks from your (former) country are fundamentally different and don't deserve such treatment. And don't forget, always warm up properly before performing mental gymnastics.

 

Uh, they shouldn't (get different treatment). I wasn't aware that former Yugoslavians were that much of an issue, I always thought it was just propaganda from Hollywood. Not that I feel especially sorry for your troubles with them, you brought them upon your self, just as Europe brought it upon it self by supporting the destabilization of the middle east...

 

Anyways, scum is scum, no matter where it come from and if you can't filter scum out then you should just block all of them.

[Gorgon]

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/09/polish-sports-fans-protest-german-eu-bully-tactics-unfurl-banner-that-reads-protect-your-women-not-our-democracy/

 

 

So proud of our volleyball fans.

I'd rather insist that we can have both. 

[Malcador]

 

 

So what is your solution then?

Well, considering we don't even know yet if there is a problem, my solution to it would be better integration. Education, jobs, control. As i said, Moscow has trouble with immigration too. And there're a lot people who think just like that, let's deport all of them and be done with it. Of course these people don't bother themselves with trying to actually understand the issue. Because if they did, they would see that the real issue are not immigrants per se, but corrupt goverment, police and business, who all profit of people who are practically used as slaves. No wonder some of them then become criminals. Obviously, the situation in Europe is probably a little bit different, still i imagine the solution is mostly the same. It's just a matter of creating a system that works.

Well deporting them is a solution that works enough. Kind of a pain I imagine.

 

Shame the EU had such idiocy that let them in so far before much thought on anything was done. But integration is the better way. Or just kick out all the single men. Heh

[213374U]

Anyways, scum is scum, no matter where it come from and if you can't filter scum out then you should just block all of them.

No, that's not how the argument goes. It's rather "they are scum because they come from XYZ or worship XYZ", ergo, automatic deportation of everyone from <random geographical area>.

 

The reason why this **** is bad is because it violates due process, presumption of innocence *and* is also collective punishment. They are all violations of basic human rights. What you folks seem to be incapable of wrapping your minds around is that you cannot be for human rights and the rule of law "sometimes". It's an either/or thing, 100% of the time. No exceptions. If only because tomorrow it could be you being taken to the gallows pole because some mouth-breathing hillbilly decided that your entire ethnic group is today's blight of the earth.

 

What is an acceptable threshold for "filtering scum out", anyway? There are occurrences of EU citizens committing crimes in other EU countries, but that is generally acceptable because reasons. You reckon that level is acceptable or we should settle for nothing less than a 100% perfect record?

[Rosbjerg]

I wasn't aware that former Yugoslavians were that much of an issue, I always thought it was just propaganda from Hollywood.

'Were' being an interesting word here, isn't it? Point is Scandinavians, Germans, Irish, Scots, Spaniards, Indians and so on and on and on... All 'were' such a" problem".

 

If this was the 3rd century we would be lamenting those filthy Gauls. 1950? Damn negros rape and murder and will never amount to anything good.

 

It's almost depressing how little the rethoric changes..

[Malcador]

Heh, some guy pepper sprayed some refugees here. Then rode off on a bike. Typical Canada.

 

We are lucky here, pretty sure we are picking and choosing rather than a tide in EU.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

The more i read discussions about this and other similar topics, the more i get the feeling that a lot of people really couldn't care less about the victims or finding real solutions to the problem. They just want something that confirms their own agenda. Disappointing. 

The real solution is mass deportation and a barrier to immigration from certain countries and economic segments in general. Requiring knowledge of the native tongue is a simple and very good barrier (for everyone except the english speaking countries). Everything else takes too long, is too expensive and uncertain.

 

Haha. In the late 90's and early 2000's we had a "problem" over here with Eastern European and especially former Yugoslavs basically taking over organized crime. Assaults, extortion, drug and arms trade, women trafficking, murder for hire, you name it. These guys did it all. The level of violence they employed was unheard of back then (given that many of them were ex-military) and they were significant enough that law enforcement had to be reorganized to deal with them. Many, especially in the media, were quick to jump on the xenophobia bandwagon. Total amount was less than 200k back then, imagine the "overrepresentation" in crime statistics.

 

Guess we should have deported everyone originating from beyond the Stettin-Trieste line en masse, right?

 

Go on, explain to me why folks from your (former) country are fundamentally different and don't deserve such treatment. And don't forget, always warm up properly before performing mental gymnastics.

 

 

You should have hanged every singe one of them connected to organized crime and deported some as an example to the others, so that they're less likely to cover for the criminals they know. I don't give a flying **** about the nationality of criminals. On the other hand, if you didn't jump on the train to making Yugoslavia a hellhole most of them wouldn't have come in the first place.

 

But if you want an answer why Yugoslav immigration is by default better than any muslim immigration and does not require mass deportation to solve:

1. all ex-Yugoslavs are Europeans and more or less fully assimilate in the second generation to whatever European country they go to. My cousin is such an immigrant to Austria and he's more German than anything else now

2. no terrorism and extremely low likelihood of it

3. culturally compatible, not religiously fanatical and a generally higher education level

4. moderate or low birth rate

[Meshugger]

Well, the current situation is that the establishment and the left have little to no answer on have manage and curb people's fears. We can all talk about better integration, education and better systems, all while people are flocking to those that simply say that they will deport everyone since it is a simple direct reaction to what people experience. 

 

For example, when you have the depute chief of the police in Helsinki saying statements like these:

 

 

 

“This phenomenon is new in Finnish sexual crime history,” Ilkka Koskimaki, the deputy chief of police in Helsinki, told the Telegraph. ”We have never before had this kind of sexual harrassment happening at New Year’s Eve.”

 

and

 

 

He said that the police had received tip-offs from staff at the asylum reception centres.

“Our information from these reception centres were that disturbances or other crimes would happen in the city centre. We were prepared for fights and sexual harrassment and thefts.”

 

...then it is not that difficult to understand on what the fears are and why people are reacting in a negative way.

 

So, just for the sake of the argument, ignore what i and the rest of the "refugee"-negative people on this forum think and answer what can realistically be done to prevent situations from these to become the norm? and most importantly how will this not escalate?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01TzI47fHfc

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

And if those stereotypes could be addressed with a "this assumption is wrong because, *insert reason*, but I see your point, please go on" rather than "RACIST! YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRONG AND YOU'RE A BAD PERSON WHO SHOULD LOSE HIS JOB AND BE FORCED INTO POVERTY AS VENGEANCE FOR A SINGLE STATEMENT" that would be super cool.

 

 

As if any of the people holding these stereotypes could be convinced otherwise with data and reasons.

[Meshugger]

 

I wasn't aware that former Yugoslavians were that much of an issue, I always thought it was just propaganda from Hollywood.

'Were' being an interesting word here, isn't it? Point is Scandinavians, Germans, Irish, Scots, Spaniards, Indians and so on and on and on... All 'were' such a" problem".

 

If this was the 3rd century we would be lamenting those filthy Gauls. 1950? Damn negros rape and murder and will never amount to anything good.

 

It's almost depressing how little the rethoric changes..

 

 

Yeah, i remember in the history books on how the Scandinavians in Minnesota used to blow themselves up at the market square in suicide attacks, how the Germans in Pennsylvania used behead non-believers, how the Scots in Nova Scotia used rape non-Presbyterians in good conscience supported by their fathers and leaders and how the Irish of New York used to demand pork-free food, women to be covered up and no alcohol sold.

 

But i seem to have forgotten how it all cooled down, how they became integrated and what the name of the book was. How strange.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Meshugger

[Rosbjerg]

And what of the many many muslim minorities who are living in peace with their neighbours? You know.. The majority? Like those select minorities of Germans, Scandis. Unlike the groups I was refering to.. We've forgotten those troublemakersprecisely because they were a select few.

 

This is something we should discuss, I agree completly - the issue I have is when media and many of those voicing concerns try to slip in a general implicit bigotry towards the majority based on the actions of a minority.

 

I'd love to discuss what should be done, but we need to lose the implicit 'with those muslims'.

 

And we need to lose that because a discussion with implied and unchallenged bigotry becomes an implied fact for a less critical audience, which we all are or were.. This is why we're still having problems with homophobia and racism and will continue to have so.. Because we start assuming that a race or culture is explicilty and naturally X (insert base human deficiency), simply because of repitition.

 

We need to stop doing that, because we alienate the majority of that group - who of course also harbours prejudice against us, that they feel are being validated. Creating the seeds of a counter-minority culture.

 

So yeah, we need to figure out WHY this is happening (and no, it's not because they are muslims, or men, or right handed).. And then how to deal with it. But based on actual facts and not just gut assumptions based on fear.

 

Edit: An ample example here was when a newspaper decided to run a story on what the likehood of random person being crminal was based on his name. They decided to only showcase foreign names and neglected to mention that the top names... were ethnic Danish. Even when accounting for percentage. That **** is dangerous...

[Darkpriest]

The main issue is, that people from vastly different culture do not really want to assimilate.

 

All EU countries are more or less the same in terms of their cultural background. The main obstacle is the language, which is easily rectified in the 2nd generation.

 

People from Non-EU sphere, i.e. North Africa, Middle East, Far East, India - they do not really assimilate even in 3rd generation, as they all live in same neighborhoods use their own language for basic communication etc. The people from India and China region are not really problematic, because they had a fairly peaceful cultural view and can easily co-exist, even if they do not really see favorably cross cultural relationships. People from Muslim region part of the world on the other hand are set on confrontational mindset, even if to tell you how you should be behaving etc.

 

Show me a percentage of fully assimilated families originating from muslim world, i.e. they speak only your national language unless no other choice, they see your local national holidays as primary holidays, they can clearly separate religion from the daily life and understand in practice the core values of freedom of faith and other personal freedoms, and have nothing against having their kids forming relationships with people from other cultures...

[Drowsy Emperor]

So you're going to keep looking for more facts until you find some that suit you. Why is it so hard to believe that a part of the problem is Islam, that these men come from a different culture that is used to violence and harsh punishment, governance through fear in other words - and therefore aren't afraid to do what they do because they know they can (mostly) get away with it? That the police response will be meek and the natives too sheep like and docile.

 

How do you think people like Saddam Hussen, the Saudis etc. ruled and stayed in power?

Edited January 9, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Tigranes]

So how many of you people have actually talked to a refugee or migrant? If you have, how many of them, aside from that one guy you know? Have you read any proper reports or studies that do that work for you? Darkpriest, taking your post as an example (but I'm asking that question of everybody) - so how do you know any of that? 

 

I'm not even asking, "How do you know what Muslims are like" as a religion/culture, although I'd bet a lot of money that most people, in this thread and outside it, know precious little about Middle Eastern culture, government, etc. and are likely to have never been there. I'm asking, what makes so many people think they have this perfect knowledge of millions of different people who move to dozens of different countries over multiple generations from all sorts of different backgrounds for different reasons. I mean, I don't know, maybe people are really impressive flaneurs and go to local migrant community gatherings and talk to them and observe them? Maybe everyone works at some civil society body?

 

A media quote from, say, a Muslim migrant convicted of rape doesn't count, neither does you walking down a street and seeing some brown people talk to each other in Arabic. Oh, and neither does having that one guy on a bus one time rant at you. (Why not? Because then I could say, based on personal experience, that Australians are inherently homophobic and racist, black Americans are inherently of inferior intelligence than whites, that a lot of the whites aren't doing so great on that these days either, and....)

 

Sure, you can't know everything, and you still have to make judgments about them if they're moving to your country. No migrant can complain that Germans or whoever should have a perfect understanding of their home culture. But none of that means you can pretend to know that X people are inherently governed by fear or whatever. Again, for anyone with a bit of historical awareness, the West tried to do that a lot more in, say, the 19th century. People tried really hard to prove black people were less human and more stupid. You even had pioneering scientists make **** up just so they could prove this, even when their data said the opposite. Turns out that wasn't exactly the most intelligent thing to do. There's no question of difference, and as someone who's moved countries multiple times, I think there's no question that there are many people who don't assimilate well and that this is a problem for both themselves and the home country. The problem is when people start to pretend, out of nowhere, that they have some full and fundamental wisdom about millions of people and their unchangeable natures - without even doing extensive research.