European Refugee Crisis : Part 2

[Gfted1]

Ah yes, the ole public service announcement.

 

Thank goodness you guys are around to repeat over and over to anyone within eyeshot that BVC is someone you dont like to communicate with.

[Meshugger]

I love all of you and no one is on ignore.

 

The differences between love and hate are difficult to spot though.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The differences between love and hate are difficult to spot though.

Is this your way of saying you only date girls into rough sex?

[Valsuelm]

Ah yes, the ole public service announcement.

 

Thank goodness you guys are around to repeat over and over to anyone within eyeshot that BVC is someone you dont like to communicate with.

 

It's so good that this forum has such intelligent and mature moderators such as yourself. Always adding something constructive to the conversation. Always raising the bar, and making sure conversation doesn't become petty, superficial, banal, or downright idiotic. You're a model poster Gfted1. Whoever made you a moderator knew what they were doing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

So what's the truth about 'no go zones' in Sweden? The supposed places so flooded with immigrant gangs police can't deal?

 

It sounds pretty ridiculous. Basically parts of Sweden have been conquered and colonized by foreigners.

That's definitely not true. I have been strolling around a number of times with my youngest cousin with a baby trolley at night in one of the worst neighbourhoods, reported as one of those "no-go zones" by extreme right-wing press, and it's all pretty neat, tidy and serene. The only potential threat, just like when I grew up, are teenage gangs of frustrated young males. These are the ones throwing stones etc. at rescue workers on occasion, after having set one or two cars on fire as some twisted idea of fun for your Friday night. 

I felt much more threatened when I was visiting poor French suburbs, for instance, recently.

 

And, once again, these are not the immigrants from the refugee "crisis". These are the teen kids of poor parents of various background who almost all have been born (the parents, that is) in Sweden or at least lived there since they were in kindergarten.  And many suburbs have been multinational since the late 70s. At school, when I was 13-15 years of age, we proudly put up all of the flags from the background of all the students in all the hallways. Something like 450 pupils had 78 different nationality backgrounds back then.

Nothing new here, folks. The only new thing is the extreme right alarmist twist of it all, sadly.

 

 

That's the thing isn't it? It's the next generation of immigrants who are conducting the violence, so why continue bringing in more and thus creating more friction in the long run? Also, i find interesting how little it matters to you for them doing what they do. This is from the perspective of the other side of the pond though, that kind of behaviour is simply not tolerated here.

 

Just to understand your position more correctly, a few questions:

 

1) What is a Swede? Anyone with a swedish passport?

2) Do you consider Ramadan a typical swedish holiday?

3) Is this propaganda? http://denkorteavis.dk/2016/din-forbannede-luder/

4) What's your opinion on the rise of the Swedish Democrats? Why are they gaining ground?

5) Do you consider Swedish society going in the positive direction? 

 

 

The first thing you say is in a way correct, but! And this is a big but: It's the second generation of all the residents in those poor problem-ridden suburbs that produce a lot of restless youth and part-time thugs and even full-time criminals. The fact that they are immigrants has very little do to with it. I can only speak for myself, and my very rough areas I grew up in, but the Swedes and the Finns of old Nordic lineage were overall worse than those of Assyrian decent or Greek, Kurdish, Egyptian or Italian, just to name a few fairly common backgrounds where I lived then. The latter didn't take up bad alcohol or drug habits, and they took school more seriously.

 

Over to your questions:

1) A typical Swede is one who's ashamed of being a Swede or one who doesn't have any sense of national pride whatsoever. I know it's sounds weird, but we were brought up this way.

So, yes, it's little more than a Swedish citizen with a passport.

2) Here's the extremely weird thing. Swedish holidays are all the same: X-mas (jul), Easter (påsk) and Midsummer's Eve (Midsommarafton) all have the same food (with courses and strong drinks (snaps) hearkening back to when Sweden was the poorest country in the whole of Europe, so foreigners usually find them horrible.) Sweden got a National Day as a holiday extremely late, year 2005. Well, we also have Lucia (an Italian Saint that turned into a tradition in the 1800s) as well as May the 1st (Första maj), the workers' big holiday. However, no. Ramadan isn't a Swedish holiday, but for many new Swedes, it still is, but it's not an acknowledged national holiday. And, heh, did you know that the pinnacle of Swedish X-Mas is watching one hour of a potpourri of American Walt Disney classics?

3) It's more or less Danish right-wing propaganda, and it's of course applauded by Swedish Democrats and their propaganda site: Avpixlat. Expo has had researchers investigate the networks of these organisations and they are almost all over Europe and all semi-fascistoid, anti-Semitic and anti-Islam and of course racist.

4) They appeal to people's fear of the foreign and the unknown and to people's need for scapegoats. They have used the Internet for years very systemically and with great success. Most of their voters were originally young and middle-aged men in those problematic suburbs we spoke of earlier, as well as men of that age in the countryside. Later, they gained ground among elderly men as well, and of course quite a few women jumped on the bandwagon too. I mean, at their largest, I reckon they had polls passing 20%.

5) No, but not for the reason you'd think. I want a society where income disparity is as low as possible, and those having trouble coping should have decent safety nets. But the past 10 years, or rather, 20 years, that kind of social-democratic Sweden gave way to a neoliberal democratic society, much more akin to Thatcherism than, say, Olof Palme's socialism light with a strong international solidarity. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gfted1]

It's so good that this forum has such intelligent and mature moderators such as yourself. Always adding something constructive to the conversation. Always raising the bar, and making sure conversation doesn't become petty, superficial, banal, or downright idiotic. You're a model poster Gfted1. Whoever made you a moderator knew what they were doing.

I hope you can manage to muscle through your visit here.

 

Speaking of constructive, lets go here for a second. In Find words lets enter "troll", and in Find author we shall add "Valsuelm", and finally Display results "as posts". Looky there, two pages of results of you "helping the forum out". You're the gift that cant stop giving.

[Malcador]

I love all of you and no one is on ignore.

 

The differences between love and hate are difficult to spot though.

With love you use a knife. Hate demands fire.

[Meshugger]

 

The differences between love and hate are difficult to spot though.

Is this your way of saying you only date girls into rough sex?

 

 

Only for oby ofcourse, i do the rest for any other women. Which one is which is up to interpretation of course.

[HoonDing]

Ironic how Russia & Eastern Europe are now the last, best hope for Yurop.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

So what's the truth about 'no go zones' in Sweden? The supposed places so flooded with immigrant gangs police can't deal?

 

It sounds pretty ridiculous. Basically parts of Sweden have been conquered and colonized by foreigners.

That's definitely not true. I have been strolling around a number of times with my youngest cousin with a baby trolley at night in one of the worst neighbourhoods, reported as one of those "no-go zones" by extreme right-wing press, and it's all pretty neat, tidy and serene. The only potential threat, just like when I grew up, are teenage gangs of frustrated young males. These are the ones throwing stones etc. at rescue workers on occasion, after having set one or two cars on fire as some twisted idea of fun for your Friday night. 

I felt much more threatened when I was visiting poor French suburbs, for instance, recently.

 

And, once again, these are not the immigrants from the refugee "crisis". These are the teen kids of poor parents of various background who almost all have been born (the parents, that is) in Sweden or at least lived there since they were in kindergarten.  And many suburbs have been multinational since the late 70s. At school, when I was 13-15 years of age, we proudly put up all of the flags from the background of all the students in all the hallways. Something like 450 pupils had 78 different nationality backgrounds back then.

Nothing new here, folks. The only new thing is the extreme right alarmist twist of it all, sadly.

 

 

That's the thing isn't it? It's the next generation of immigrants who are conducting the violence, so why continue bringing in more and thus creating more friction in the long run? Also, i find interesting how little it matters to you for them doing what they do. This is from the perspective of the other side of the pond though, that kind of behaviour is simply not tolerated here.

 

Just to understand your position more correctly, a few questions:

 

1) What is a Swede? Anyone with a swedish passport?

2) Do you consider Ramadan a typical swedish holiday?

3) Is this propaganda? http://denkorteavis.dk/2016/din-forbannede-luder/

4) What's your opinion on the rise of the Swedish Democrats? Why are they gaining ground?

5) Do you consider Swedish society going in the positive direction? 

 

 

The first thing you say is in a way correct, but! And this is a big but: It's the second generation of all the residents in those poor problem-ridden suburbs that produce a lot of restless youth and part-time thugs and even full-time criminals. The fact that they are immigrants have very little do to with it. I can only speak for myself, and my very rough areas I grew up in, but the Swedes and the Finns of old Nordic lineage were overall worse than those of Assyrian decent or Greek, Kurdish, Egyptian or Italian, just to name a few fairly common backgrounds where I lived then. The latter didn't take up bad alcohol or drug habits, and they took school more seriously.

 

Over to your questions:

1) A typical Swede is one who's ashamed of being a Swede or one who doesn't have any sense of national pride whatsoever. I know it's sounds weird, but we were brought up this way.

So, yes, it's little more than a Swedish citizen with a passport.

2) Here's the extremely weird thing. Swedish holidays are all the same: X-mas (jul), Easter (påsk) and Midsummer's Eve (Midsommarafton) all have the same food (with courses and strong drinks (snaps) hearkening back to when Sweden was the poorest country in the whole of Europe, so foreigners usually find them horrible.) Sweden got a National Day as a holiday extremely late, year 2005. Well, we also have Lucia (an Italian Saint that turned into a tradition in the 1800s) as well as May the 1st (Första maj), the workers' big holiday. However, no. Ramadan isn't a Swedish holiday, but for many new Swedes, it still is, but it's not an acknowledged national holiday. And, heh, did you know that the pinnacle of Swedish X-Mas is watching one hour of a potpourri of American Walt Disney classics?

3) It's more or less Danish right-wing propaganda, and it's of course applauded by Swedish Democrats and their propaganda site: Avpixlat. Expo has had researchers investigate the networks of these organisations and they are almost all over Europe and all semi-fascistoid, anti-Semitic and anti-Islam and of course racist.

4) They appeal to people's fear of the foreign and the unknown and to people's need for scapegoats. They have used the Internet for years very systemically and with great success. Most of their voters were originally young and middle-aged men in those problematic suburbs we spoke of earlier, as well as men of that age in the countryside. Later, they gained ground among elderly men as well, and of course quite a few women jumped on the bandwagon too. I mean, at their largest, I reckon they had polls passing 20%.

5) No, but not for the reason you'd think. I want a society where income disparity is as low as possible, and those having trouble coping should have decent safety nets. But the past 10 years, or rather, 20 years, that kind of social-democratic Sweden gave way to a neoliberal democratic society, much more akin to Thatcherism than, say, Olof Palme's socialism light with a strong international solidarity. 

 

 

Thank you for your answers, it's appriciated. Firstly, i would to point out that you fit the swedish archetype so much that it almost hurts, well done! Secondly, while i do know of the notorious Finns in Sweden, like Juha Valjakkala, their antics were usually within their own community with alcohol and knife-fights, seldom spilling into swedish society. Based on my own observations there of course. Now, some comments about your answers: 

 

1) Mentally, yes right there with archetype that i was talking about earlier. I can mostly agree with this.

 

2) Agreed again, and once again i find it quite cute that you have to downplay the essential swedish holidays on their swedishness.

 

3) This is a bit more disputed case. I simply disagree. I think that these outlets exist because of the paranoia of the mainstream media of anything to be interpreted racist is taboo and thus pushed for these alternative sites to exist and become popular. If would've been a truly open debate in the mainstream media about this, those sites wouldn't even had a reason to exist to begin with. Also, articles like the danish one can also be found in standard norwegian and finnish sites.

 

4) I think their popularity exist for the same reason as the previous point. Parties like SD do not just pop into existence and become popular without a reason.

 

5) Here is where we disagree the most i think. Swedes, like most northern people have a very low ingroup/outgroup-mentality and a high focus on individualism. We simply believe in moral universalism to the bone. When people immigrating from pastoral cultures like the middle east and africa, who has strong ingroup/outgroup mentality and moral particularism, not from ignorance, but because of that's simply their culture. Practically that means that are at a much higher risk to ghettofy themselves and practice different rules within group and outside the group in clear conscience. This practically means that they can easily abuse the system to their benefit and a clear disadvantage to the host population. To clarify, Sweden cannot simply cope with the amount of immigration from countries with complete different cultural values. I think that society will be more fractured and collectivized (Different ethnocentric or religious groups), once those different groups become big enough to identify with. Sooner or later, swedes will be an own collectivized group among many (an educated guess is that when they become a minority) and that's when society breaks down completely. The result will either be war between the groups, or a new Caesar steps up and rules with iron fist over them. Either way, the open, democratic society will die by the time that happens. 

 

I hope that i am wrong on the last point and the groups will dissimate into the bigger swedish group, but lets just say that the odds are against me when the labour is only local and the capital is global. Cheers!

Edited May 18, 2016 by Meshugger

[majestic]

 

There is going to be blood in the streets before all is said and done. Lots of it....

 

InfoWars? Like, really?

 

I love the part where Gysi's comments are mistranslated on purpose (and the rest is, I guess, hobbled together and quoted out of context, but seeing how I don't know the full source material it is hard to say, of course) and then it talks about big government, a boogeyman that is much more at home in the US than it is in Germany. While it is undeniable that there ARE many and massive issues with the current migration crisis and even more problems with second generation immigrants this is... classic truther stuff. Pass me some chemtrails, mon.

[obyknven]

Good news everyone!

 

Report from US Combating Terrorism Center.

https://www.ctc.usma.edu//v2/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CTC_Caliphates-Global-Workforce-Report1.pdf

 

If short - ISIS = Turkey.  Can't  wait until Turkey become new EU  member - it's must be funny. Allahu Akbar!!!

[obyknven]

EU/Ukrainian border. Ukrainian migrants beat border guards. To Europe!

http://youtu.be/vV8v2-5Ftek

[BruceVC]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36368346

 

 

Shame the poor Russians in Syria....wait I thought they had pulled out of Syria as the conflict was basically over 

[obyknven]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36368346

 

 

Shame the poor Russians in Syria....wait I thought they had pulled out of Syria as the conflict was basically over 

Yet another blah-blah without proofs from Ukrainian media.

[Meshugger]

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

Edited May 25, 2016 by Meshugger

[Malcador]

When you import an influx of Muslims, you get jihad. It’s hardly rocket science. The West faces jihad terror because a certain percentage of the Muslim population will kill in the cause of Islam. Yet Juncker and the other European Commission authorities are not moving to stop the migrant influx, but to crush dissent from parties that want to save Europe’s free and pluralistic societies.

It seems the Nazis are back, in a different uniform and with a cheekier narrative, but the objective is very much the same.

Ah. It's like a right tumblr.

[Meshugger]

Did i say that you should expect quality writing? No? That's right.

[Malcador]

Did i say that you should expect quality writing? No? That's right.

Wasn't really commenting on the writing. But at least they didn't make the quote up.

[BruceVC]

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

[Meshugger]

Hahahahaha

[BruceVC]

Hahahahaha

I'll be honest there is something none of the guys who live in the EU realize ...I can post it but it will take time?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The EU needs to be protected from democracy. That means these anti-immigrant parties populary elected and DiEM25 need to be shut down and all representatives should be handpicked by EU officials.

[BruceVC]

The EU needs to be protected from democracy. That means these anti-immigrant parties populary elected and DiEM25 need to be shut down and all representatives should be handpicked by EU officials.

I'm still disappointed by your ideological change but I am hoping hard evidence will change your mind

 

I can make that long post if you want  about the EU ..but only if you want 

[Volourn]

"No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing"

 

 sjw nAZIS STRIKE AGAIN!