Turkey shoots down russian jet

[213374U]

 

I saw the video as well. Shooting exiting pilots is about the same level as torturing animals because it is fun. Little can be done against such people except for:

While not excusing their actions by any means, it's interesting how people saying something like that forgetting the fact these pilots were dropping bombs on them in the first place. And i've heard reports that they're not even particularly choosy on who they drop them, militants or civilians. In any case, it's a bit hypocritical to expect these people to act differently. "We're dropping bombs on you, but shooting a pilot is just too much!" Really?

 

I was going to post something along these lines, too. I can't understand how folks can be scandalized by the fact that the people usually on the receiving end of white phosphorus would jump at the chance to shoot an ejected pilot who can't do anything about it.

 

These were military pilots flying a combat sortie. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

 

 

Ah yes, the ever common preface which is proven a lie by what follows. I don't think British routinely executed German pilots during the Blitz, if they survived, after all.

 

Well, the British had their own airforce they could and did retaliate with, didn't they? This is asymmetrical warfare. Wonder if you chaps would be more at ease if they had tried the pilots in a kangaroo court and hanged them.

 

"Civilized war" is an oxymoron.

Edited November 24, 2015 by 213374U

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

If you do not understand the basic concept shooting someone unarmed or unable to fight, then i do not know what to tell you except that may God have mercy on your soul.

All the people Russia and everyone else are bombing aren't exactly able to fight against that either. Yet i don't see you worried about it all that much.

 

 

They're unable to fight yet they downed that helicopter and killed a marine a few hours later? What?

[Fighter]

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012,  They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory.  And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior?  Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided. 

 

A Russian SU-30 flew into Turkey and locked onto their jets in their airspace. First time I hear about this. But just a guess no one else except for Turkey has confirmed this? Because it sounds like bs.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Fighter

[Sakai]

 Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Pretty much, yeah.

 

 

They're unable to fight yet they downed that helicopter and killed a marine a few hours later? What?

An exception that only proves the rule that people on the ground can't really do much against planes bombing them.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Sakai

[Gfted1]

Lets not play stupid here. The Russians are fighting in Syria. The russian jets are plainly not a danger to Turkey, its army or its civilian population. There is no cause to shoot them down. The breach of airspace is a technicality and the strip of land that it allegedly occurred over is both small and irrelevant. 

 

Additionally, since Russia is attacking ISIS (among others) and Turkey is "officially" against ISIS that is even more reason for cooperation and leeway in this regard.

You mean except for this?

 

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012, They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory. And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior? Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

I saw the video as well. Shooting exiting pilots is about the same level as torturing animals because it is fun. Little can be done against such people except for:

While not excusing their actions by any means, it's interesting how people saying something like that forgetting the fact these pilots were dropping bombs on them in the first place. And i've heard reports that they're not even particularly choosy on who they drop them, militants or civilians. In any case, it's a bit hypocritical to expect these people to act differently. "We're dropping bombs on you, but shooting a pilot is just too much!" Really?

 

I was going to post something along these lines, too. I can't understand how folks can be scandalized by the fact that the people usually on the receiving end of white phosphorus would jump at the chance to shoot an ejected pilot who can't do anything about it.

 

These were military pilots flying a combat sortie. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

 

 

Ah yes, the ever common preface which is proven a lie by what follows. I don't think British routinely executed German pilots during the Blitz, if they survived, after all.

 

Well, the British had their own airforce they could and did retaliate with, didn't they? This is asymmetrical warfare. Wonder if you chaps would be more at ease if they had tried the pilots in a kangaroo court and hanged them.

 

"Civilized war" is an oxymoron.

 

 

Then its okay to nuke them?

 

By the way, read the first comment under the video you posted.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Lets not play stupid here. The Russians are fighting in Syria. The russian jets are plainly not a danger to Turkey, its army or its civilian population. There is no cause to shoot them down. The breach of airspace is a technicality and the strip of land that it allegedly occurred over is both small and irrelevant. 

 

Additionally, since Russia is attacking ISIS (among others) and Turkey is "officially" against ISIS that is even more reason for cooperation and leeway in this regard.

You mean except for this?

 

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012, They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory. And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior? Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided.

 

 

Without concrete proof and the proper of the sequence of events that is a meaningless claim. The Russians could claim that they:

1. were not in Turkish air space

2. didn't lock on at all

3. that the plane was defending itself outside of Turkish air space

etc. etc.

 

Its he said- she said. But shooting a plane down is no longer a guessing game.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Fighter]

Lol. Well, please explain me where i'm wrong. Why killing them is ok, but them killing us is not. I really don't understand that kind of logic. Come into a foreign country, drop bombs on the people daily and then be outraged that these people are fighting back... What exactly did you expect? 

 

 

These are just not words that should come out of your mouth towards a soldier of your country. I don't think anyone can teach you that at this point.

[Darkpriest]

From unofficial US info, it seems the Russian craft entered Turkish airspace for a few seconds, Turks also claim thet this plane and another which was nearing the border were warned 10 times in the time of 5 minutes about them entering Turk airspace.

 

Considering that it was shot down 1km away from the border it is no impossible that there was accidental crossing for a similar distance into Turk airspace, but that still does not justify the retaliation type, considering those were on a mission vs terrorists and were clearly no threat to Turkey.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Totally unrelated but the chinese make me lol every time

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/chinese-police-use-a-flamethrower-to-smoke-out-muslim-terrorists/

[Meshugger]

 

If you do not understand the basic concept shooting someone unarmed or unable to fight, then i do not know what to tell you except that may God have mercy on your soul.

All the people Russia and everyone else are bombing aren't exactly able to fight against that either. Yet i don't see you worried about it all that much.

 

 

Here i thought that you cannot get any more concending, but there you go; trying to guilt trip me into something that i haven't commented on. Save that faux-intellectual trapping for someone else.

 

Again, shooting unarmed soldiers in combat is simply evil to the core. 

[Fighter]

Should just take it to the logical conclusion. You pay taxes and vote. So when they shoot you lets say on the street in Paris that's ok too. These guys are just fighting back.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Bottom line really, all they're doing is proving that Putin is right. If there are no "moderate" rebels, and they don't abide by the rules of engagement, then they're basically marauders and its feuer frei.

 

And if Turkey is supporting them the only appropriate thing to do is to impose economic sanctions against the country until Erdogan steps down.

 

I mean, if we're all against ISIS and banditry?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Darkpriest]

Totally unrelated but the chinese make me lol every time

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/chinese-police-use-a-flamethrower-to-smoke-out-muslim-terrorists/

 

Well, If I am not mistaken, if the body is churned by fire, tunred to ash and not buried, they are denied access to their paradise, right?

 

So Chinese might be just smart about it.

[BruceVC]

Should just take it to the logical conclusion. You pay taxes and vote. So when they shoot you lets say on the street in Paris that's ok too. These guys are just fighting back.

Fighter I have never seen you so confrontational ...and  its weird as he is a fellow Russian?

 

End of the day isn't he allowed to say " Russia shouldn't be in Syria " 

 

And now everyone is attacking his view ....that can make debate difficult ?

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Totally unrelated but the chinese make me lol every time

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/chinese-police-use-a-flamethrower-to-smoke-out-muslim-terrorists/

 

Well, If I am not mistaken, if the body is churned by fire, tunred to ash and not buried, they are denied access to their paradise, right?

 

So Chinese might be just smart about it.

 

 

Nah they just didn't want to go into the cave to get jumped so they used the appropriate tool for the job. But its China's "no ****s were given" attitude that cracks me up. I mean, these guys were on the hunt for two months in some ****hole to do the job. That's thoroughness for you.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[kgambit]

 

 

Lets not play stupid here. The Russians are fighting in Syria. The russian jets are plainly not a danger to Turkey, its army or its civilian population. There is no cause to shoot them down. The breach of airspace is a technicality and the strip of land that it allegedly occurred over is both small and irrelevant. 

 

Additionally, since Russia is attacking ISIS (among others) and Turkey is "officially" against ISIS that is even more reason for cooperation and leeway in this regard.

You mean except for this?

 

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012, They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory. And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior? Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided.

 

 

Without concrete proof and the proper of the sequence of events that is a meaningless claim. The Russians could claim that they:

1. were not in Turkish air space

2. didn't lock on at all

3. that the plane was defending itself outside of Turkish air space

etc. etc.

 

 

Except the Russians admitted that they were in Turkish airspace on both prior occasions but said it was a "mistake" caused by "navigational error" or "weather conditions" (the reason tends to vary depending on the phases of the moon).    

 

Google it yourself.  

 

 

@darkpriest

 

I've seen the same info - both about the warnings and the time over Turkish airspace.  If the radar track is accurate, the time over Turkish territory was indeed brief.   The Turkish response may have been disproportionate but why continue on a track where you're WARNED to stand clear.   It would taken a minimal course correction to avoid the situation.  How many times do you need to be warned?  

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

Lets not play stupid here. The Russians are fighting in Syria. The russian jets are plainly not a danger to Turkey, its army or its civilian population. There is no cause to shoot them down. The breach of airspace is a technicality and the strip of land that it allegedly occurred over is both small and irrelevant. 

 

Additionally, since Russia is attacking ISIS (among others) and Turkey is "officially" against ISIS that is even more reason for cooperation and leeway in this regard.

You mean except for this?

 

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012, They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory. And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior? Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided.

 

 

Without concrete proof and the proper of the sequence of events that is a meaningless claim. The Russians could claim that they:

1. were not in Turkish air space

2. didn't lock on at all

3. that the plane was defending itself outside of Turkish air space

etc. etc.

 

 

Except the Russians admitted that they were in Turkish airspace on both prior occasions but said it was a "mistake" caused by "navigational error" or "weather conditions" (the reason tends to vary depending on the phases of the moon).    

 

Google it yourself.  

 

 

@darkpriest

 

I've seen the same info - both about the warnings and the time over Turkish airspace.  If the radar track is accurate, the time over Turkish territory was indeed brief.   The Turkish response may have been disproportionate but why continue on a track where you're WARNED to stand clear.   It would taken a minimal course correction to avoid the situation.  How many times do you need to be warned?  

 

 

That you need to ask the planners in Moscow. I see no point in antagonizing the Turks over a meaningless and tiny strip of land, but even less point in shooting down Russian planes that aren't going after targets in Turkey. Now Russians are fully within their rights to shoot down any Turkish airplane that goes a foot over the Syrian border, and will probably do so.

 

Turkey cannot sit on two chairs and pretend this is about state sovereignty and air space violations when it plainly is not as long as its supporting a terrorist faction in a neighboring country.

 

Air space violation is the excuse, and not the reason for shooting the plane down. 

 

Oh, and: https://twitter.com/INTHENOWRT/status/669244417589440512

Edited November 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sakai]

These are just not words that should come out of your mouth towards a soldier of your country. I don't think anyone can teach you that at this point.

And i hope no one teaches me that particular lesson. Blind "patriotism" is something that has led to many tragedies in human history. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Sakai

[Hildegard]

This is the picture from the Turkish side where the Su-24 supposedly entered Turkish airspace:

 

 

The Su-24 was at 6000m altitude with a cruising speed of what, 700-900kph? 

 

This gap that he crossed is long approximately 6-8km. 

 

Do simple math, how long does that plane need to cross that area?

 

Here's what Turkish-US allies had to say: http://www.todayonline.com/world/turkish-military-says-downed-jet-was-warned-10-times-over-airspace-violation

 

Supposedly the plane was warned for 5 minutes 10 times while in Turkish airspace. So I guess the Su-24 was flying what, 50kph according to the Turks? Hahaha what a joke.

 

What a classic ambush by the Turks.

 

Hope this backfires for those ISIS loving Islamist Turkish ****. 

[213374U]

Then its okay to nuke them?

Whether I believe it's okay to nuke them or not is irrelevant, I'm nobody. What matters is will someone actually do it and if so, can they get away with it?

 

I would think that you of all people should be aware of how little stuff being "okay" matters in a war.

 

 

 

Again, shooting unarmed soldiers in combat is simply evil to the core.

 

Who here has suggested otherwise? No one but you has made a value judgment about it. However it's kinda suspect that your outrage is always directed the same way. I don't remember you being so upset when a MSF hospital was bombed in the 'stan a few weeks ago. Or when Israeli commandos infiltrated a hospital in the West Bank to assassinate a patient. Or...

Edited November 24, 2015 by 213374U

[Darkpriest]

 

 

 

Lets not play stupid here. The Russians are fighting in Syria. The russian jets are plainly not a danger to Turkey, its army or its civilian population. There is no cause to shoot them down. The breach of airspace is a technicality and the strip of land that it allegedly occurred over is both small and irrelevant. 

 

Additionally, since Russia is attacking ISIS (among others) and Turkey is "officially" against ISIS that is even more reason for cooperation and leeway in this regard.

You mean except for this?

 

FFS, the Turks were edgy after Syria shot down an unarmed recon plane in 2012, They also warned the Russians about violating their airspace after Russian Su-30s violated Turkish airspace on October 3rd (and again on October 4th) and then went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory. And you think this depends on the TURKS behavior? Maybe if the Russian jets had exercised a little more discretion and steered just a couple of miles south this whole mess would have been avoided.

 

 

Without concrete proof and the proper of the sequence of events that is a meaningless claim. The Russians could claim that they:

1. were not in Turkish air space

2. didn't lock on at all

3. that the plane was defending itself outside of Turkish air space

etc. etc.

 

 

Except the Russians admitted that they were in Turkish airspace on both prior occasions but said it was a "mistake" caused by "navigational error" or "weather conditions" (the reason tends to vary depending on the phases of the moon).    

 

Google it yourself.  

 

 

@darkpriest

 

I've seen the same info - both about the warnings and the time over Turkish airspace.  If the radar track is accurate, the time over Turkish territory was indeed brief.   The Turkish response may have been disproportionate but why continue on a track where you're WARNED to stand clear.   It would taken a minimal course correction to avoid the situation.  How many times do you need to be warned?  

 

 

Well in EU we simply escort them out to the borders... but we have experience from nearly 50 years of cold war... Turks apparently do not have, and likewise Russians did not have previous experiences with Turks...

 

I am willing to bet, that Turks launched their missilies the moment the Russian plane "crossed the border" for an inch... IF the track is accurate... there is no other chance that given the time and flight path it would get hit just 1km outside if the Turks would wait even 10s. But even this, considering the time it spend in the Turk airspace, it may be accurate, that Turks launched the missiles, while the Russian planes were already OUTSIDE of Turk airspace...

 

I am no expert on military protocols, especially when it comes to the airgame, but I would assume that certain things require contacts with command, such as changing flight path etc. and that might take time.

[kgambit]

 

 I see no point in antagonizing the Turks over a meaningless and tiny strip of land,

 

Neither do I and yet here we are.  As I said a little restraint on both sides would not have out of order.

 

@Hildegard -

 

Assuming a straight line path, the flying time is less than a minute - (6 - 8 km / 800 kph) * 3600 secs/hr = 27 - 36 seconds.  The claim was that the Russian Su-24 was warned 10 times over a 5 minute interval but that the warnings began prior to the Su-24 crossing Turkish airspace.  As in "change course you are about to violate Turkish airspace"  which is exactly what you would expect.   Again it's a matter of when the warnings were issued and why they were ignored.     

 

Of course you're simply free to view the insidious Turks as having schemed and plotted to shoot down a Russian aircraft.  If so, I suggest you ask Gifted1 if he can also hook you up with some of that Fantastic Illuminati Mayonaise.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Then its okay to nuke them?

Whether I believe it's okay to nuke them or not is irrelevant, I'm nobody. What matters is will someone actually do it and if so, can they get away with it?

 

I would think that you of all people should be aware of how little stuff being "okay" matters in a war.

 

 

While morality is the first casualty of war we still have to have something to go on.

 

In the case of this intervention its obvious, as in any conflict, that everyone is following their own interests. But if go from the basic argument that:

1. Syria was a relatively prosperous and modern state compared to its neighbors that did not deserve a foreign instigated civil war  

2. That Assad, as a legitimate ruler (or as legitimate a ruler as a ME country can have) did not have to cave in to western demands

3. That his opponents have proven at every turn that they're likely much worse than he is, apart from being illegitimate from the start

 > then its not hard to claim that the current Russian intervention, apart from being motivated by realpolitik and the protection of their military interests is still more or less legitimate

 

If it were up to me, none of this would have happened to Syria (or Iraq, or Yugoslavia or whomever else) in the first place but since it has it is presumably better to have the Russians force it to its miserable conclusion rather than have it last another 5 or 10 years.

 

International law may be weak and circumvented often, but the gist of it is that its better that a framework exists rather than there be none at all.

[Darkpriest]

On some channels there seems to be a consideration  that Russian jets used that path before and that indeed this might have been a sucker punch by Turks for Russians bombing Turkmen in Syria, to what Turks protested. There are also some rumors that Turks put a blind eye on illegal oil trade from ISIS and that actually Edrogans nephew gained some money on that trade through Turkish territory - and as we know, recently Russians decided to bomb those operations in response to the destruction of the passanger flight from Egypt.

 

Considering the fact how fast the vidoe was put up, and that the Turkmen were already stationed directly on that flight path, I do not find it a completely crazy idea... unlikely, but not improbable.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Darkpriest