Turkey shoots down russian jet

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russia probably needed to be taken down a notch and no one was killed so... They are probably going to be more realistic about their own capacity in the future.

 

If there is going to be an intervention in Syria everybody, and by that I mean every forgein military power in theater, has to get on the same page first.

 

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000

 

Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. 

 

 

But they were against those interventions, in the mechanisms (UN) instituted with the idea that conflicts should be resolved on the basis of consensus instead of unilateral action.

When NATO was doing as it pleased the world over, that's all well and good but when Russia is protecting its interests it needs to be "taken down a notch", even though its targeting an entity that is now more or less the enemy of the entire world and is attacked by country that is supporting said entity - a country that is also a member of the NATO alliance and is undermining the supposed goals of the alliance in the matter. 

 

Long story short - Turkish support for ISIS is okay, Russians protecting their interests isn't?

 

So by your logic, what entitles Russa to intervene in Syria. Shouldn't they be going through propper channels and attempt to woo over the UN. 

 

The UN was never able to account for the cold war dynamic so a 'consensus' for anthing, not just Iraq and Yugoslavia meant everyone except Russia and China, they were going to vote 'no' nomatter what. Is that hypocritical, sure, I'll go allong with that. Not a lot of the UN's lofty ideals of peace and cooperation survived contact with reality.   

 

 

Russia was invited to intervene by the legitimate, elected government of Syria. That is the major difference between the Russian and US interventions in Iraq, Yugo etc. 

 

If the international framework can be ignored at will then there is nothing wrong with Russia intervening anywhere it pleases.

 

OMG....you actually think Assad was the legitimate leader of Syria, he never had  a democratic election but he somehow is legitimate? 

 

 

Its not a matter of what I think, the Syrian government had years of relations with more or less the entire world. It was de facto and de iure accepted as a legitimate representative of the Syrian people. Up until the point that the west decided to remove Assad. And even then post the 2014. presidential election the number of countries reaffirming their stance that Assad is legitimate (by way of congratulating him on his victory, which is one of the ways a government can be accepted under international law) far outnumbers the few western countries that called the elections a farce.

 

Incidentally, your own government is among those that congratulated Assad on his victory.

 

How does anyone let you discuss politics on air when you know so little of international relations?

 

Yes well my government is facing so many challenges this must be the worst state our economy is in

 

So please don't read anything into what my government says ....as far as making the right foreign policy decisions they fail almost all the time 

 

Now why you getting personal? I can easily do that with you as your idea of  a prudent strategic partner is .....Russia 

 

But  I don't, I just make the post about where I disagree with you 

[Malcador]

Should have just let Assad massacre these clowns to start with way back when.

[BruceVC]

Should have just let Assad massacre these clowns to start with way back when.

Clowns? You mean the initial Syrian rebels who wanted the West to help?

[Malcador]

Clowns? You mean the initial Syrian rebels who wanted the West to help?

Yep. Given all this trouble that's resulted from this adventure, can't say their lives were worth anything near it.

[BruceVC]

 

Clowns? You mean the initial Syrian rebels who wanted the West to help?

Yep. Given all this trouble that's resulted from this adventure, can't say their lives were worth anything near it.

 

 I hear you, we actually still don't know if the West could trust them 

 

It feels weird thinking that the West should have done nothing because as I keep mentioning the West tries very hard to prevent genocides 

 

But lets look at how messed the whole region is ....and we wouldn't have known once Assad was removed if the  rebels were really trust worthy

 

I really never thought I would say this but non-intervention  in this case seems it would be right decision

 

But then it may have been harder to get Iran to agree to the negotiations?

Edited November 24, 2015 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well, there is always a way to profit from someone else's misery. 

 

But I'm starting to think that certain US policies are driven by random number generators.

 

I mean, here we are half a decade later and no one can explain what the point of the whole operation was. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

It occurs to me that the timing of this is highly suspicious, just now as Europe and Russia are on the brink of a reconciliation of sorts via the joint action against ISIS. After all, Russian intervention against ISIS has broad support even in European countries, especially after the Paris attacks.

 

Maybe someone doesn't want Russia and Europe to be friends and is willing to leverage their NATO obligations and Turkey as a pawn to do it.

 

Who could that be? 

 

(:

[BruceVC]

Well, there is always a way to profit from someone else's misery. 

 

But I'm starting to think that certain US policies are driven by random number generators.

 

I mean, here we are half a decade later and no one can explain what the point of the whole operation was. 

Oh I meant to say the West should just stay out of the ME....I'm sorry its not worth the blood, the effort, the sacrifice ....for what? The local people don't appreciate it, they still blame the West for everything 

 

And now that the USA produces its own oil there is less imperative to actually ensure stability 

[Malcador]

Extraordinary meeting by NATO going on now.

[Gfted1]

It occurs to me that the timing of this is highly suspicious, just now as Europe and Russia are on the brink of a reconciliation of sorts via the joint action against ISIS. After all, Russian intervention against ISIS has broad support even in European countries, especially after the Paris attacks.

 

Maybe someone doesn't want Russia and Europe to be friends and is willing to leverage their NATO obligations and Turkey as a pawn to do it.

 

Who could that be? 

 

(:

 

Illuminati Jews?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Exactly.

[Fighter]

Turkey will need to pay for this.

[Gfted1]

Exactly.

 

Crikey! Is there anything they cant control from their orbital stealth laser outpost?

[Malcador]

Crikey! Is there anything they cant control from their orbital stealth laser outpost?

The Muslamic Lizardmen still fight them in this shadow war.

[HoonDing]

Turkey will need to pay for this.

Any Turkish airliner flying over Eastern Ukraine, maybe?

[Malcador]

I think the Turkmen in Syria are in for a rough time.

[Fighter]

Any Turkish airliner flying over Eastern Ukraine, maybe?

 

The next time a turkish jet or helicopter wanders for example into Armenia as they do sometimes we will remind Erdogan of his own chosen method of "defending borders". That or Kurds will find some new weapons. Either way retribution will come in kind.

[BruceVC]

 

Any Turkish airliner flying over Eastern Ukraine, maybe?

 

The next time a turkish jet or helicopter wanders for example into Armenia as they do sometimes we will remind Erdogan of his own chosen method of "defending borders". That or Kurds will find some new weapons. Either way retribution will come in kind.

 

Yeah, we hear you. Turkeys actions seem unnecessary

 

How is the general view in Russia? 

[Zoraptor]

The turkomen militia* that executed the pilots is Turkeys most direct Syrian proxy of all. Quite apart from not wanting to be them I wouldn't want to be a Turkish helicopter pilot 'accidentally' (very regularly) violating Armenia's air space, since there's a Russian air base in Armenia.

 

*al qaeda affiliated too, of course, hence the watermarking on some of the videos.

 

Looks like there's going to be a lot of tepid responses from politicians, with presumably a whole lot of "what the asterisks were you thinking?" behind closed doors. Plus of course some more "don't bomb Al Qaeda plz" from NATO's sec gen, and dodging the question of where the plane was shot down.

 

It occurs to me that the timing of this is highly suspicious, just now as Europe and Russia are on the brink of a reconciliation of sorts via the joint action against ISIS. After all, Russian intervention against ISIS has broad support even in European countries, especially after the Paris attacks.

 

Also after Russia bombed a bunch of ISIS oil infrastructure and tankers. That's a whole lot less oil money that won't be finding its way into AKP pockets any more.

 

Turkish proxy Ahrar ash Sham is now attacking a Yezidi village in Afrin along with their Al Qaeda allies, coincidentally.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Fighter]

Yeah, we hear you. Turkeys actions seem unnecessary

 

How is the general view in Russia? 

 

It's more than "unnecessary", it's murder. They were waiting in an ambush with cameras at the ready like rats. This is the view in Russia.

[BruceVC]

 

Yeah, we hear you. Turkeys actions seem unnecessary

 

How is the general view in Russia? 

 

It's more than "unnecessary", it's murder. They were waiting in an ambush with cameras at the ready like rats. This is the view in Russia.

 

Okay I'm  not sure if that is true ....what do you mean cameras? Are you being serious 

[Elerond]

 

 

Yeah, we hear you. Turkeys actions seem unnecessary

 

How is the general view in Russia? 

 

It's more than "unnecessary", it's murder. They were waiting in an ambush with cameras at the ready like rats. This is the view in Russia.

 

Okay I'm  not sure if that is true ....what do you mean cameras? Are you being serious 

 

 

I would guess that he means that there are videos about shooting that plane that surfaced quite soon after the incident.

[Malcador]

Russian marine killed as well, a chopper was shot by a TOW missile.

[Darkpriest]

Somewhat unrelated, but does anyone know who is responsible for two bombs in Athens?

 

Also Tunis also suffered from a bomb attack, the bus with presidential security got bombed, 22 dead so far.

[Darkpriest]

Russian marine killed as well, a chopper was shot by a TOW missile.

 

Russians are enforcing their Assault troops on Crimea as of now.