Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Gorth]

Okay I wont go the normal "BruceVC knows what you really thinking "  approach and try this a different way  

 

Firstly I would bet you have lived in more countries than anyone else on these forums

 

Then how did you feel about the various countries you lived in? I imagine you have fond memories of all of them...except Germany ..I still am surprised you went to Germany, do you speak German?

German is/was my second language, although I'm probably more fluent in English now (which used to be my third language).

 

If anything, I learnt that no country is perfect. Mostly getting along with people, but raising eyebrows at the various administrative quirks and idiosyncrasies you run into. Germany was a mix of two things, not feeling comfortable living in the big city and the deeply ingrained "formality" in the way people interact. At least I can get people to address me by my first name here (after a bit of encouragement)

 

But yes, I have fond and less fond memories from each country. Nobody is perfect. Denmark the semi-socialist "paradise", New Zealand with it's "remoteness" from the rest of the world, Australia which I guess would be closer to USA than England now culturally, Germany where you need to fill out a form for crossing the street and England where everything looks and feels a bit old and worn down

[BruceVC]

 

Turkey has a huge and easy to cross border if you know who to bribe , its  a massive country. Obviously anyone in Turkey who would be prepared to buy the oil has means to process it  and getting access to trucks is common in the ME ...so trust me you may think  a convoy of trucks is unusual but its not in the ME

I'm guessing you didn't click through the pictures?

 

Sorry I'm also listerning to music so my screen is stretched but I did see them now. It still doesn't convince me

 

I must apologize as I am not use to you engaging in these debates and I realize you are being serious, sorry if I seemed dismissive

 

Let me ask you an important question, why do you think Erdogan would buy this oil and allow ISIS to grow and survive 

[Gfted1]

I dont know his motivations wrt ISIS but my guess would be to further destabilize the region for Turkish gain, or good old fashioned cashola. I was mostly debating your stance that the Turkish government isn't turning a blind eye.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

The sattelite imagry doesnt satisfy as proof?

No...they even mention later on in the article that there is no definitive link between the oil and Erdogan

 

the officials did not specify what direct evidence they had of the involvement of Erdogan and his family, an allegation that the Turkish president has vehemently denied 

 

You see anyone who is anti-Western like Drowsy and Zora would want this to be true, this would have serious ramifications for Tiurkey. They would be suspended from NATO and the West would completely cut them out from the campaign against ISIS

 

Whoever has been buying the oil from ISIS is responsible for sustaining them...meaning  also responsible for all the carnage and mayhem. Its a very serious accusation....but I don't believe Erdogan would be so stupid, sure people within his country maybe ...but not him?

 

Man I am pro-west and I want to get Turkey out of NATO and EU. I can hardly believe that there are thousands of trucks stuffed with oil on Turkey border and they dont know about them? seriously, you cant believe that

 

No my friend you see you want Turkey to join the EU, its best for everyone if the EU integrates  a Muslim country. Dont take this the wrong way but one thing this thread has taught me is many of guys have no experience with meeting normal moderate Muslims 

 

Also you don't want the EU  to be seen as   a " white man only club" . Letting Turkey in will make no difference, white people will still be in charge and make the decisions ...so don't see this as an attack on your culture

 

 

Few years ago, I was totally pro Turkey joining EU, now with Erdogan and his dictatorship manners, everybody sane knows, that's really terrible idea...

Edited December 2, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

Turkey has a huge and easy to cross border if you know who to bribe , its  a massive country. Obviously anyone in Turkey who would be prepared to buy the oil has means to process it  and getting access to trucks is common in the ME ...so trust me you may think  a convoy of trucks is unusual but its not in the ME

I'm guessing you didn't click through the pictures?

 

Sorry I'm also listerning to music so my screen is stretched but I did see them now. It still doesn't convince me

 

I must apologize as I am not use to you engaging in these debates and I realize you are being serious, sorry if I seemed dismissive

 

Let me ask you an important question, why do you think Erdogan would buy this oil and allow ISIS to grow and survive 

 

 

He is Sunni, ISIS is Sunni, Syria is Shiite, that's enough for some to start to support a massacre...

[BruceVC]

I dont know his motivations wrt ISIS but my guess would be to further destabilize the region for Turkish gain, or good old fashioned cashola. I was mostly debating your stance that the Turkish government isn't turning a blind eye.

It is a valid question for someone who is not aware of the history of this conflict, I can understand why someone may think " why wouldn't Turkey buy this illegal oil " ...the reality is its not like the countries in the ME seem to care about each other

 

But Turkey has been trying to join the EU for years, its not a Arab country and it has no interest in trying to occupy Iraq or Syria

 

And it has 2 million Syrian refugees living within its borders  and the EU has just paid it 3 Billion Euros to stop sending more refugees to Europe 

 

These Syrian refugees are a huge resource strain on any country ...why would Turkey want to sustain this nightmare conflict 

[Mamoulian War]

Sorry, but it has as much interest to occupy parts of Syria as they have interest of occupying Cyprus... If you believe otherwise you are naive...

 

And despite wanting to join EU, which to be honest is nowadays just a phrase so they will get someone backing their case, they are closing independent medias and arresting reporters almost every day...

 

That is not a country which belongs to the EU...

 

And not to forget, they are bombing Kurds in Syria, the only real ground force fighting against ISIS...

 

They want to sustain the conflict, because they are profiting from it... The 3 billion Euros is IMO pretty phat lewt they got from EU... Worth killing few Kurds and destroying some Russian planes...

Edited December 2, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[BruceVC]

Sorry, but it has as much interest to occupy parts of Syria as they have interest of occupying Cyprus...

Okay maybe you can post some links to support this?

[Gorth]

Ever considered the possibility that heads of state's personal interests and their responsibilities may have a conflict of interest? Point in case, Ghadaffi, Saddam Hussein, every long ruling despot clinging on to power at all cost?

 

The Kurdish party hurt the ruling party in Turkey in the previous election and if continuing, they may or may not have ousted Erdogan from power through a normal democratic process. Hence, the Kurds needed a good stomping and who better to do that than a group with similar interests (and blowing the nationalist trumpets at the same time, rallying voters behind the ballots). He *is* the leader of an islamist party after all.

[Mamoulian War]

 

Sorry, but it has as much interest to occupy parts of Syria as they have interest of occupying Cyprus...

Okay maybe you can post some links to support this?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

[Gfted1]

It is a valid question for someone who is not aware of the history of this conflict, I can understand why someone may think " why wouldn't Turkey buy this illegal oil " ...the reality is its not like the countries in the ME seem to care about each other

 

But Turkey has been trying to join the EU for years, its not a Arab country and it has no interest in trying to occupy Iraq or Syria

 

And it has 2 million Syrian refugees living within its borders  and the EU has just paid it 3 Billion Euros to stop sending more refugees to Europe 

 

These Syrian refugees are a huge resource strain on any country ...why would Turkey want to sustain this nightmare conflict

So, iyo, those pictures just show and unfortunate traffic jam / parking lot for tanker trucks?

[BruceVC]

 

It is a valid question for someone who is not aware of the history of this conflict, I can understand why someone may think " why wouldn't Turkey buy this illegal oil " ...the reality is its not like the countries in the ME seem to care about each other

 

But Turkey has been trying to join the EU for years, its not a Arab country and it has no interest in trying to occupy Iraq or Syria

 

And it has 2 million Syrian refugees living within its borders  and the EU has just paid it 3 Billion Euros to stop sending more refugees to Europe 

 

These Syrian refugees are a huge resource strain on any country ...why would Turkey want to sustain this nightmare conflict

So, iyo, those pictures just show and unfortunate traffic jam / parking lot for tanker trucks?

 

Those photos dont prove anything ...but lets see how it unfolds 

[Gfted1]

I see.

[Meshugger]

Bruce is just protecting his stock options at TPIC (http://www.tpic.com.tr/en/)

 

Pay him no heed.

[Mamoulian War]

this is how some people living in ME see what is happening there...

 

http://iranian.com/posts/the-new-ottoman-no-sorry-erdogan-empire-56704

[Drowsy Emperor]

I see.

 

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

[HoonDing]

they'll be at the gates of Vienna before the end of teh year

[Drowsy Emperor]

I think its gone straight past the gates this time around.

 

"Danke Deutschland"

Edited December 2, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gfted1]

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

Of course. Its the typical BVC non-answer but I lost interest in discussing it with him so I just let it drop.

[Zoraptor]

No, its doktored. Until we get ISIS's accountant BVC isn't going to believe anything

 

We actually got ISIS's accountant, he was called Abu Sayyaf and the US killed him plus captured his wife and records during a raid on Deir-ez-Zor. While nothing official has been released about their contents all the leaks have them confirming large scale links with Turkey and plenty of oil smuggling.

 

And those petrol tankers? Obviously not petrol tankers, they were for... baby milk, yes, that's it! Russia is deliberately starving babies in Syria! When will the west take action to stop the madness of these barbarians! Kind Uncle Tayyip supplying the literal milk of human kindness even unto his mortal enemies in ISIS and that horrible bear riding exhibitionist from St Pete'sburg blatantly and callously attacked them. Won't someone think of the children?

 

..and we can rule out Syria ..

 

 

Syria does buy (though 'buys' is more accurate) oil from ISIS, strange as it may seem. It's a consequence of the government holding most of the electricity generation infrastructure but ISIS holding most of the oil and gas fields that supply it- ISIS still supplies them with fuel and gets electrical power back in return. Since the alternative is neither side having electricity that arrangement is likely to continue until such time as the gas fields in particular are recaptured. The US does accuse the government of actually buying [as opposed to swapping/ bartering] oil as well, but that's very questionable since they can very easily get petrol/ diesel supplies from Iran, if not Russia as well, without funding their enemies. Natural gas is far harder to supply though, if you don't have the existing infrastructure for supply, hence it pretty much has to come from ISIS.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

 

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

Of course. Its the typical BVC non-answer but I lost interest in discussing it with him so I just let it drop.

 

Oh my....look at you. You play the standard " BCV never answers " , you are condescending and then rude

 

When I first read this I was annoyed by your rudeness and I was going to respond accordingly...but I went to the shop and my irritation has gone

 

Its my fault  because clearly you think I'm stupid and in the past I have gone along with your sarcastic comments and acted like I wasn't aware. So lets set the record straight, I'm not stupid so please don't assume this again and insult me because I will respond next time and there is no need for a debate like this to get personal 

 

I explained to you the facts about why its unlikely Turkey would be funding ISIS. You ignored this and insisted I should consider the photo evidence. The photo evidence if it was real do you not think your country who is actively involved in this conflict would have considered.....do you not think that the USA who has been involved in the ME  and has effective and reliable information from sources like Israel and Saudi Arabia would be aware if Turkey was the reason ISIS was able to sustain itself ?

 

So once again you make the assumption that  everyone is stupid ....except for the Russians

 

But I didn't feel like pointing the obvious out to you and trying to " win"  the argument so I thought we could wait a few days when this story will be confirmed....which is why I said lets wait and see

But even this wasn't good enough for you and you chose to insult me ....oh well 

 

Once this story is debunked I suppose an apology from you will be too much to ask?

[Gfted1]

I see.

[BruceVC]

I see.

Of course that would be your response ....its not like you could admit you were rude 

[Darkpriest]

Not really Turkey related, but ISIS seems to have capture and beheaded a Russian:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-releases-video-purportedly-showing-beheading-alleged-russian-spy-n472921

[Gfted1]

Of course that would be your response ....its not like you could admit you were rude

That's because I don't think it was rude.

 

But upon careful consideration I probably do owe you an apology. See, I come here to mentally relax, have a few laughs, occasionally poke fun, etc., not to upset people. I know you take your advocacy du jour seriously and you've obviously become very upset so, apologies BruceVC. I will endeavor to curtail any responses to you. :brofist: