European Refugee Crisis

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

define western culture

Good question 

 

Any country that is a Democracy and believes and practices things like human rights and freedom of speech and religion and believes in a free market where the Private sector grows the economy but government supports them 

 

What is your definition?

 

 

Really?

 

Free market is from Islam actually...in Islam every traders/vendors/anyone who sell something have a right to set prices, and buyers have a right not to buy, buying and selling is based on agreement from both side...that is free market in Islam

 

Price control is from Jews

 

Interesting, yes the West has learnt a lot from the Islamic world 

 

 

Yes, the west learn many things from Islam, and then convert it into something new...that's what i respect about the west...nationalism, socialism, capitalism, communism, liberalism, women rights...all these from Islam, but it is not in the way the west redefine it...but sadly in islamic world all these things also redefined into something bad, out of conservatism and anti-west sentiment. Most Muslims don't even know the meaning of all those "ism' but reject it just because "it is from the west, therefore it is bad and unIslamic"

 

Yeah I have seen this before...but its not just the Muslim world who automatically rejects things they think come from the West

 

Many African countries do this....its very frustrating because if you understand " ism" and incorporate them you will have a happier and more tolerant society 

[Qistina]

Western secularism is actually from islam...it is from ibn Rushd, or western called him Averroes, it is Rationalism movement that spark Protestantism movement from Christians in Europe. Ibn Rushd see how religious peoples playing politic and politicians playing religious sentiment, it was he who suggest the separation between religion and state, he's the father of Secularism actually.

 

Ibn Rushd who formulate that there is ulama' (religious scholars/scholars) and umara' (country leader/king/president), these two cannot be the same person/body or else religion will be abused for politic and politic being abused for religion. The west quickly take this and convert it into modern secularism as we see today.

 

In other way, Muslim world reject secularism...and it is understandable...it is because Muslims are abusing religion and politic for a very looooooong time, even today, even in my country...even though my country is secular, but not really...Muslim make excuse saying "secularism is from the west, it's Kufur (anti-Islam/religion/anti-God/infidelity)"

Edited December 1, 2015 by Qistina

[Qistina]

This is the answer of all problems actually...religion and politic going along in the past, not only Islam, but others too...Christianity, Hinduim, Buddhism, Paganism, and whatever...they always get along together...that's why in the past we have god-king, kingdom of heaven, royals blessed by the gods, and such thing...

 

It is always about POWER....religions you guys see today are religion that have changed into what we see today...Buddhism are not monks who don't care about anything and meditate, in the past Buddhists do play politics and having empires...what do you guys think Shaolin Kung Fu is for? Shaolin monks today as they seems today is because China is now Communist.

 

Even Jewish, it is all about politic and power, it's about sovereingnity of Jewish people and Judea, even today it is about the same thing.

 

And so those islamic terrorists, do you guys think it is about religion or religious motivated? Naaaah...it is about power. About authority. About politic.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Qistina

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

define western culture

 

Good question 

 

Any country that is a Democracy and believes and practices things like human rights and freedom of speech and religion and believes in a free market where the Private sector grows the economy but government supports them 

 

What is your definition?

Your idea of Western Culture is a state with neoliberal ideals?

Im not sure what you mean by that? 

 

Whats your definition of neoliberal?

I mean you're defining "Western Culture" as a state that practices an economic theory favoring free trade, privatization, and minimal government intervention in business.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Some good news everyone!

 

After the rape of 14 year old girl by asylum seekers in Kempele, about 100 asylum seekers/refugees marched in the nearby city of Oulu with roses and begged for forgiveness for the sins of their brethren http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/art-1448939517887.html

 

Qistina, why are they displaying such acts of remorse and shame for things they haven't done? Sounds like something a christian would do.

 

I don't understand your question and i don't understand what the article is about, i don't speak that language

 

He is asking you why Muslims in Finland feel responsible for the actions of those two refugees who raped the girl...why do they feel they should apologize for something they never did 

 

But he is missing something important....they doing it for people like him who question if the refugees can be integrated 

 

 

Oh i see, well maybe it is because of they are minorities, and then the west negative view about Islam, so they compelled to say "we are good guys, please don't see us the same like those rapists, terrorists, robbers, bad guys...", i feel pity for Muslims in the west actually, maybe because i live in Muslim country, i feel superior here...

 

 

Blah, the joke went over everyone's head. Nvm.

[Qistina]

 

Blah, the joke went over everyone's head. Nvm.

 

 

I don't understand the joke

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

define western culture

Good question 

 

Any country that is a Democracy and believes and practices things like human rights and freedom of speech and religion and believes in a free market where the Private sector grows the economy but government supports them 

 

What is your definition?

Your idea of Western Culture is a state with neoliberal ideals?

Im not sure what you mean by that? 

 

Whats your definition of neoliberal?

I mean you're defining "Western Culture" as a state that practices an economic theory favoring free trade, privatization, and minimal government intervention in business.

 

 Okay yes we need to separate the economic definition from social polices....like freedom of speech

 

The economic definition is important as without  an inclusive, robust and growing economy you don't have much. So I agree with all your points but not the " minimal government intervention " 

 

I use to think any government intervention was automatically a bad thing but after 2008 I understand why you need institutions like SEC but they need to be competent and have people working for them who understand the financial sector

 

In the USA its fine but in South Africa our government has no understanding of what is best for the private sector    

[BruceVC]

 

 

Blah, the joke went over everyone's head. Nvm.

 

 

I don't understand the joke

 

I also didnt get it?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Genghis Khan and his people worshipped the winds, their ancestors and other shamanic stuff.

And none of this was integral to the foundation of the Mongol Empire thereby contradicting your claim that "no great civilization has existed without a founding religion".

 

 

That's a pretty big claim to make. What would the Mongol empire be without the wind-worshipping mongols?

 

Meshugger you don't need a  religion as the foundation of modern Western countries as far as the religion being a intricate part of decision making in government ? Aren't Western countries secular around there governments ?

 

Culture, Bruce.

 

Sorry do you mean religion in Western countries is part of the culture?

 

 

What exactly is your question?

 

Is my point really so incomprehensible ?

 

 

I am asking Namutree if he means religion is part of Western culture

 

 

Human rights, democracy, freedom of speech and free markets doesn't make a western nation. Those are ideals in themselves, otherwise following the same logic, Greece would have gone from being the foundation of western civilization, to beeing not it in the 70's to becoming western once again in the 90's.

 

Western civilization is the heritage that the people of Europe have, from the Etruscans, Illyrians, Hellenic, Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian to Charlemagne, the French Revolution, the Scottish enlightment, the founding of USA, the German idealism, to Classical music, Philosophy, Christian Theology, the Architecture to the spirit and ideas of vices and virtues. All of these are products of different white people being at each others throats from years to years end with ever re-occuring wars. We have had one church, then two, then a protestant revolution.

 

The society we have today in Europe is the result of all that history as it have developed organically.  

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

And no Qistina, Islam hasn't invented anything. It was done by Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, etc. The sooner you let go of such whimsical musings, the sooner your people will actually read books again and before you know it, you'll have your renaissance you will be walking on the moon.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I find the whole rape topic interesting. When one reads the anti-immigration articles, its one of the most prominent topics. The right is very insistent that muslim immigration is directly responsible for a huge spike in rape cases in nordic (and other) countries, and that the police and media purposefully omit the ethnicity and religion of the perpetrators on a regular basis to protect the whole multi-culti fantasy. Additionally, the punishments are usually extremely lenient. I've also read reports from women that harassment of native women walking around (not covered up) in the streets by muslim arabs and blacks is a regular thing.

 

I can't tell how true this is because we do not have large numbers of muslims in the capital and most of those we do have are the domestic (Bosnian) type and they are far less religious and extreme than north-african/middle eastern types. And anyone molesting women in the way I've read is a regular occurrence in countries like Sweden would end up in pretty bad shape when word got out. 

 

I wonder if there's anyone here from a Nordic country who has first hand experience to comment on this.

[Rostere]

I find the whole rape topic interesting. When one reads the anti-immigration articles, its one of the most prominent topics. The right is very insistent that muslim immigration is directly responsible for a huge spike in rape cases in nordic (and other) countries, and that the police and media purposefully omit the ethnicity and religion of the perpetrators on a regular basis to protect the whole multi-culti fantasy. Additionally, the punishments are usually extremely lenient. I've also read reports from women that harassment of native women walking around (not covered up) in the streets by muslim arabs and blacks is a regular thing.

 

I can't tell how true this is because we do not have large numbers of muslims in the capital and most of those we do have are the domestic (Bosnian) type and they are far less religious and extreme than north-african/middle eastern types. And anyone molesting women in the way I've read is a regular occurrence in countries like Sweden would end up in pretty bad shape when word got out. 

 

I wonder if there's anyone here from a Nordic country who has first hand experience to comment on this.

 

Stop reading people's fantasies and wild speculations on the internet.

 

That said:

1. It is illegal in Sweden to keep records of ethnic heritage of people accused of or convicted of crimes.
2. It is true that in some of the most segregated suburbs (there probably are three or so in Sweden) harassment of people with "improper" clothing could occur. Still, this is something which COULD happen, and the harassment would take the form of someone shouting something at you. I've walked with a tailcoat on through some of the "worst" suburbs of Stockholm without anything happening at all.

Anyways, 99% of the things you read are probably outright lies, cherry-picking, or a mixture of both. That said, refugees have lately (talking the last year or so) become a huge short-term economic burden. The amount of money spent on juveniles coming to Sweden without their families is comparable to the collected expenditures of the entire state of Afghanistan, I've heard.

[Qistina]

And no Qistina, Islam hasn't invented anything. It was done by Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, etc. The sooner you let go of such whimsical musings, the sooner your people will actually read books again and before you know it, you'll have your renaissance you will be walking on the moon.

 

Of course, Islam is just a religion...but this religion moved it's followers, the Arabs, to learn all knowledge available. Islam changed the Arabs from being ignorant into enlightenment. The first revelation in Quran is "Read, in the name of Allah who created you from blood clot". That's the first step. What i mean is Islam is a catalyst for changes in which makes the Arabs are knowledge hungry.

 

That's the Arabs, of course Muslims are not just the Arabs, there are Persians, Turkish, Spaniards, Moorish, Chinese, Malays...and on and on...every Muslims bring on own knowledges and share it, contribute it to Islam. That's why you can see everything found by Muslims either it was original or originated from somewhere, it is contribute to Islam. Persian Muslims don't contribute it to Persia, and so others toward their nationality, but to Islam.

 

Al Khwarizmi who created the Algebra, originally Al-Jabbar, he study Hindu numerology, and so many others, and making mathematical formula for what? For Islam...it is for Muslims to make easy counting the zakat, the alms, and make bearings toward Makkah for prayer and pilgrimage. You can't deny it is contribution from islam because Algebra is created for Islam.

 

The same in chemistry, it was Al-Khemyt, then Alchemy...it was Egyptian knowledge, learned by the Muslim Arabs for what? To learn the truth behind all things, the truth about Allah creations. What motivate the Arabs to learn that knowledge is Islam. from there the knowledge evolved and spread to the west, becoming modern chemistry.

 

You can't deny islam contribution to the world because it is too many. If there is no islam, the world don't change into what we see today.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng

Edited December 1, 2015 by Qistina

[213374U]

I find the whole rape topic interesting. When one reads the anti-immigration articles, its one of the most prominent topics. The right is very insistent that muslim immigration is directly responsible for a huge spike in rape cases in nordic (and other) countries, and that the police and media purposefully omit the ethnicity and religion of the perpetrators on a regular basis to protect the whole multi-culti fantasy. Additionally, the punishments are usually extremely lenient. I've also read reports from women that harassment of native women walking around (not covered up) in the streets by muslim arabs and blacks is a regular thing.

 

Yeah... not a particularly innovative tactic either.

 

I'm guessing not many people are actually going to bother reading the 1,000+ pages of critique that are being added to Mein Kampf's 2016 edition. Because, 140 characters.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

 

define western culture

 

Good question 

 

Any country that is a Democracy and believes and practices things like human rights and freedom of speech and religion and believes in a free market where the Private sector grows the economy but government supports them 

 

What is your definition?

Your idea of Western Culture is a state with neoliberal ideals?

Im not sure what you mean by that? 

 

Whats your definition of neoliberal?

I mean you're defining "Western Culture" as a state that practices an economic theory favoring free trade, privatization, and minimal government intervention in business.

 Okay yes we need to separate the economic definition from social polices....like freedom of speech

 

The economic definition is important as without  an inclusive, robust and growing economy you don't have much. So I agree with all your points but not the " minimal government intervention " 

 

I use to think any government intervention was automatically a bad thing but after 2008 I understand why you need institutions like SEC but they need to be competent and have people working for them who understand the financial sector

 

In the USA its fine but in South Africa our government has no understanding of what is best for the private sector

How is a government a culture? Your definition of "Western Culture" is confusing because it equates culture with state and requires a specific ideology when many other ideologies have arisen in the West. Furthermore it discounts historical West from being "Western Culture" because they did not practice some form of liberalism.

[Chilloutman]

Of course, Islam is just a religion...but this religion moved it's followers, the Arabs, to learn all knowledge available. Islam changed the Arabs from being ignorant into enlightenment. The first revelation in Quran is "Read, in the name of Allah who created you from blood clot". That's the first step. What i mean is Islam is a catalyst for changes in which makes the Arabs are knowledge hungry.

 

That's the Arabs, of course Muslims are not just the Arabs, there are Persians, Turkish, Spaniards, Moorish, Chinese, Malays...and on and on...every Muslims bring on own knowledges and share it, contribute it to Islam. That's why you can see everything found by Muslims either it was original or originated from somewhere, it is contribute to Islam. Persian Muslims don't contribute it to Persia, and so others toward their nationality, but to Islam.

 

Al Khwarizmi who created the Algebra, originally Al-Jabbar, he study Hindu numerology, and so many others, and making mathematical formula for what? For Islam...it is for Muslims to make easy counting the zakat, the alms, and make bearings toward Makkah for prayer and pilgrimage. You can't deny it is contribution from islam because Algebra is created for Islam.

 

The same in chemistry, it was Al-Khemyt, then Alchemy...it was Egyptian knowledge, learned by the Muslim Arabs for what? To learn the truth behind all things, the truth about Allah creations. What motivate the Arabs to learn that knowledge is Islam. from there the knowledge evolved and spread to the west, becoming modern chemistry.

 

You can't deny islam contribution to the world because it is too many. If there is no islam, the world don't change into what we see today.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng

if you will keep this pace we will soon be reading that fire was invented for islam

[Qistina]

Just think about it...knowledges of the past are for the elites, people like us not likely afford to learn science and whatsoever, only the nobles, the elites, the monks, the priests who have access to knowledge and able to read. People like us are likely work in the field, serve in the army or cooking at kitchen...

 

Before Islam......Byzantium was forever having endless war with Persia...Europe was under Roman Catholic Church...if there is no islam what happen in that part of the world? It is stagnant.

 

Muslim Arabs who break the stalemate between Byzantium and Persia, by conquering both...and this lead to Crusades by the Catholic...and that what makes the world changed forever. Muslims have open policy for learning knowledge and spread them, western peoples also learn from Muslims what you can't learn before. Knowledge also learned by the Crusaders, they moved from their homeland into new land and learned something new and bring back home.

 

By means Islam change the world....you can't deny that.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I find the whole rape topic interesting. When one reads the anti-immigration articles, its one of the most prominent topics. The right is very insistent that muslim immigration is directly responsible for a huge spike in rape cases in nordic (and other) countries, and that the police and media purposefully omit the ethnicity and religion of the perpetrators on a regular basis to protect the whole multi-culti fantasy. Additionally, the punishments are usually extremely lenient. I've also read reports from women that harassment of native women walking around (not covered up) in the streets by muslim arabs and blacks is a regular thing.

 

I can't tell how true this is because we do not have large numbers of muslims in the capital and most of those we do have are the domestic (Bosnian) type and they are far less religious and extreme than north-african/middle eastern types. And anyone molesting women in the way I've read is a regular occurrence in countries like Sweden would end up in pretty bad shape when word got out. 

 

I wonder if there's anyone here from a Nordic country who has first hand experience to comment on this.

 

Stop reading people's fantasies and wild speculations on the internet.

 

That said:

1. It is illegal in Sweden to keep records of ethnic heritage of people accused of or convicted of crimes.
2. It is true that in some of the most segregated suburbs (there probably are three or so in Sweden) harassment of people with "improper" clothing could occur. Still, this is something which COULD happen, and the harassment would take the form of someone shouting something at you. I've walked with a tailcoat on through some of the "worst" suburbs of Stockholm without anything happening at all.

Anyways, 99% of the things you read are probably outright lies, cherry-picking, or a mixture of both. That said, refugees have lately (talking the last year or so) become a huge short-term economic burden. The amount of money spent on juveniles coming to Sweden without their families is comparable to the collected expenditures of the entire state of Afghanistan, I've heard.

 

 

For something you deem "fantasies and wild speculations" there are dozens of people passionately claiming this very thing that seemingly get nothing out of it. 

 

 

Are they all racists then?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[HoonDing]

*tips fedörå*

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I use to think any government intervention was automatically a bad thing but after 2008 I understand why you need institutions like SEC but they need to be competent and have people working for them who understand the financial sector

 

In the USA its fine but in South Africa our government has no understanding of what is best for the private sector

How is a government a culture? Your definition of "Western Culture" is confusing because it equates culture with state and requires a specific ideology when many other ideologies have arisen in the West. Furthermore it discounts historical West from being "Western Culture" because they did not practice some form of liberalism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Western civilization is the heritage that the people of Europe have, from the Etruscans, Illyrians, Hellenic, Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian to Charlemagne, the French Revolution, the Scottish enlightment, the founding of USA, the German idealism, to Classical music, Philosophy, Christian Theology, the Architecture to the spirit and ideas of vices and virtues. All of these are products of different white people being at each others throats from years to years end with ever re-occuring wars. We have had one church, then two, then a protestant revolution.

 

The society we have today in Europe is the result of all that history as it have developed organically.  

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

And no Qistina, Islam hasn't invented anything. It was done by Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, etc. The sooner you let go of such whimsical musings, the sooner your people will actually read books again and before you know it, you'll have your renaissance you will be walking on the moon.

 

Yes I understand my definition may seem inaccurate and Meshugger gave a very historically standard response ...nothing wrong 

 

I am trying to widen the debate of what it means to be Western nowadays...the governments and economic policies surly define part of Western ideology?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

Western culture is just as much a product of ancient Greek and Enlightenment traditions, I'm really not seeing why do you want to single out christianity as a uniquely relevant part of these cultural pillars.

Edited December 1, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[BruceVC]

 

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

Western culture is just as much a product of ancient Greek and Enlightenment traditions, I'm really not seeing why do you want to single out christianity as a uniquely relevant part of these cultural pillars.

 

alu last week or so I asked you about the rape stats in Hungary and the way I asked you felt I was being racist...were you joking because I need to clarify something if you were being serious

[aluminiumtrioxid]

alu last week or so I asked you about the rape stats in Hungary and the way I asked you felt I was being racist...were you joking because I need to clarify something if you were being serious

 

"I imagine rape stats are pretty high in Hungary" is an exceedingly racist statement. It also misses its own point entirely.

 

Why is this relevant now?

[Malcador]

Not really racist, the nation of Hungary's composed of different groups, no ? Is just a bit prejudiced.

 

First set are arriving in Canada, good aside from the nauseating media coverage and people being welcoming, etc. as it strikes me as being a bit false.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Why would Hungary have any higher rape stats than any other country in the region? 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Not really racist, the nation of Hungary's composed of different groups, no ? Is just a bit prejudiced.

 

It is prejudiced. The basis of this prejudice is the ethnicity of the country's inhabitants. Isn't that, like, the definition of racism?