3.00 patch teased by Josh on SA

[Infinitron]

I'd like to see the new Prayer durations first before judging this change.

 

re: half-duration Grazes being just as nasty as Hits, it depends on the player's skill level - whether you're nimble enough to ensure that your characters are in the right place at the right time to take advantage of the shorter windows. I guess you'd prefer a status effect graze mechanic that can't be so totally mitigated by the player's party movement skills. I wonder what the Sensuki-ite school of "tactical movement" would think of that.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Infinitron

[PrimeJunta]

Nah, I was actually thinking about it from the PoV of the defender here. If you're facing two fampyrs and both graze with a Dominate, that's very close to the functional equivalent of both hitting or critting with it. I think it'd be more interesting if proper planning would mitigate the effect instead of just lowering the probability of a hit or a graze.

[Infinitron]

Nah, I was actually thinking about it from the PoV of the defender here. If you're facing two fampyrs and both graze with a Dominate, that's very close to the functional equivalent of both hitting or critting with it. I think it'd be more interesting if proper planning would mitigate the effect instead of just lowering the probability of a hit or a graze.

 

Not sure I agree with that justification. The player can be smart and nimble enough to take advantage of shorter Graze status effect windows, effectively rendering them the same as Hits, but enemy AIs usually aren't. In general, it definitely feels different to me when I get hit with a disabling status effect for only 5 seconds vs 20 seconds.

 

There might be specific cases where what you're saying is true, like if you're surrounded by enemies who keep Grazing you with disabling effects (think Xaurip Skirmishers). Even so, the shorter graze duration does allow you to escape more easily if you bring in reinforcements to help out.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Infinitron

[Sannom]

Yeah overall Pillars has come a long way. I'm not so sure about the hard counters though -- as it is, dealing with stuff like Dominate or Terrify is an interesting mini-challenge that you can't resolve with a single brute-force fix. (I'm pretty proud at figuring out that a ranger's Faithful Companion buffed by a Goldpact Knight's Liberating Exhortation makes a great Dominate-magnet f.ex.)

 

Making the Prayers hard counters and letting anyone use them as scrolls will replace that with a one-size-fits-all solution. It simplifies the gameplay in a not-good way IMO.

Why were you using your Faithful Companion/Liberating Exhortation (what's the difference between a Goldpact Knight and a Paladin from any other order by the way?) in the first place? Did you decide not to play with a priest? Because even without a hard counter, all the "protection against _____" spells were very efficient. Is it really the scroll thing that bothers you the most, rather than the hard counter?

[PrimeJunta]

Bond of Duty.

 

Goldpact Knights can take that talent. It gives a massive, massive boost to defence against Dominate, Charm, and Confuse. Stack that on top of a Faithful Companion wolf, and you've got a fast, disposable Dominate magnet which is as close to immune to Dominate as it gets.

 

Edit: yes I was playing without a priest, so yes, the scroll thing does bother me more

Edited January 10, 2016 by PrimeJunta

[Karkarov]

I like the design of stronghold with sleeping giant on it. That is one step forward from map being patchwork of many elements to map which is one big element which makes sense as a whole.

 

Conspiracy theory: Maybe sleeping giant is related to Endless Path statue?

Nope.

 

Real spoilers here don't click if you don't want to know about Od Nua statue.

 

 

The endless paths statue is a statue in the image of the King of Od Nua's son so that it would channel his soul back to the living world and he could be reborn.  Basically the statue is a giant soul magnet which is why the adra dragon settled at it's feet.  King figured if the statue looked like his son it would be more likely to draw his son in I guess, news flash, it didn't work.  All this gets explained on the bottom levels by the king himself.

 

 

[Valorian]

It's already page 15 and it's time to talk about something important: the implementation of monsters' on-hit effects. 

 

Monster grazes/hits/crits you -> defense check -> you get an affliction. The way it's implemented makes defense checks pointless because you'll be afflicted almost constantly as long as the monster attacks you (unless you're immune).  

 

Defense checks against on-hit afflictions should matter.

There are several options. One of them is to have on-hit effects trigger only on hits and crits, both for the primary and secondary attack or just for the secondary:

Monster (grazes)/hits/crits you -> defense check -> hit/crit -> you get an affliction.

 

 

I like it when the same effect can be applied multiple times with each hit. One of my favorite effects is level drain in D&D. However, they made two mistakes with it in BG2; 1) most enemies with level drain automatically apply it on hit with no saving throw and 2) negative plane protection items and spell. Lesser/greater restoration should've been enough: removes level drain, but doesn't make you immune to it. It would have been a matter of "when do I want to cast it to restore lost levels", not "immune hehehihi". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[why]

I thought effects were lessened on grazes and heightened on crits.  If that's the case, then there's incentive to make it harder to land a hit and a damned good incentive to make it harder to land a crit.  At least that's how I see it.  The game is not brutally hard, so I don't really pay that much attention to the mechanics.  If the monsters landed enough party destroying effects, then I'd probably look into it more.

 

I'll just be happy to change some of my enchantments so I can adjust for new gear.  Right now, if I get a +2 strength ring that, say, brings on Consecrated Ground on a hit, then I have to play tetris so that I lose a stat bump or one is rendered redundant.  I don't mind it a little, but I think armor is the biggest bummer.  You get some nice effects on armor and it sucks that you can't even replace the stats.  Decide once and hope for the best.  I think the stat bumps on rings and other items is coo, but let us switch around those stats on armor at least.  Of course, I haven't had time to follow stuff as much lately, but I have some vague recollection that they're changing that.  I was very happy to see somewhere in this thread about an increase in enchantment levels.  Suhweeeet!

[Valorian]

I thought effects were lessened on grazes and heightened on crits.  If that's the case, then there's incentive to make it harder to land a hit and a damned good incentive to make it harder to land a crit.  At least that's how I see it.  The game is not brutally hard, so I don't really pay that much attention to the mechanics.  If the monsters landed enough party destroying effects, then I'd probably look into it more.

 

 

Intervals between monsters' attacks are shorter than affliction durations on grazes.

 

The reason I want the change has nothing to do with difficulty. I want teh surprise! More randomness. I want to fear the effect: "oh no, my character is AFFLICTED now!" 

Currently if a monster's accuracy is comparable to your defenses you're going to be afflicted all the time. I'd be happy with longer durations or more crippling effects, but without grazing.

[why]

Intervals between monsters' attacks are shorter than affliction durations on grazes.

 

The reason I want the change has nothing to do with difficulty. I want teh surprise! More randomness. I want to fear the effect: "oh no, my character is AFFLICTED now!" 

Currently if a monster's accuracy is comparable to your defenses you're going to be afflicted all the time. I'd be happy with longer durations or more crippling effects, but without grazing.

Ahh, I see. Not a big deal for me so far, but maybe when I do PotD next run it will make more of a difference. Still have my beef with enchants, though. On the other hand, I know a lot of other folks are clamoring for the same thing. I'm just adding my voice to theirs. Actually, I hope that they've already changed it and I just didn't see it yet.

[anameforobsidian]

Kobold skirmishers are just ****ing deadly on PotD solo for that reason.  They should make different, reduced effects that apply on graze.  Stun goes down to daze, dazed goes to distracted, etc.  That's what 4E does, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do it out of development shortfall reasons.

 

I'd be excited to see if someone does a TuTu style trilogy mod for PE when the second and third come out.  BG improved a lot over its lifespan, and it's interesting to see pillars do the same.

Edited January 11, 2016 by anameforobsidian

[Valorian]

 

Intervals between monsters' attacks are shorter than affliction durations on grazes.

 

The reason I want the change has nothing to do with difficulty. I want teh surprise! More randomness. I want to fear the effect: "oh no, my character is AFFLICTED now!" 

Currently if a monster's accuracy is comparable to your defenses you're going to be afflicted all the time. I'd be happy with longer durations or more crippling effects, but without grazing.

Ahh, I see. Not a big deal for me so far, but maybe when I do PotD next run it will make more of a difference. 

 

 

If you're playing with a full party it's generally hard to notice because these enemies get deleted in a matter of seconds. In PoE everyone can be a machine of destruction with auto-attacks, which is lame. Differentiate classes more in this regard Obsidian, pls! Like, reduce base accuracy for half the classes and bump up their spell accuracy by the same amount. Also, what happened to classes having different base reflex/will/fortitude? I'm sure -10 to one weak defense and +5 to the strong one (with +1 increments till level 11) wouldn't kill the game, but it would be yummy flavor. 

 

 

Edit: Obisidan is now Obsidian.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Valorian

[Boeroer]

That would severely limit the variants of viable builds and I don't think and hope Obs will do that. The main reason I still play this game is the fact that you can build all classes in very different and still effective ways.

[Valorian]

This is not a PvP game. Everything is viable.

[Fenixp]

This is not a PvP game. Everything is viable.

That's not quite correct. Balance exists for a reason, even in SP games. For one, you don't want new players entering your game, creating character which will either be way too easy or, even worse, way too difficult to play. Furthermore, there's no such thing as grinding in Pillars of Eternity - without good balance, it would be absolutely possible for players to create and level their characters in such a way that they'd quite simply not be able to continue the game.

 

And then there's the good old question of quite simply having fun with the game. You might feel like your enjoyment with how specifically you play the game and with your particular builds would be improved by these changes, but can you honestly say the same for builds of other people? What if the game suddenly gets too difficult for them to continue? Or too trivial? (not saying you currently can't break the game mind you)

 

That being said, I don't think affliction grazes downgrading the affliction are a bad idea, but putting soft restrictions on classes kinda is. As it stands even rangers essentially having to use a bow feels kinda wrong to me.

[Valorian]

 

This is not a PvP game. Everything is viable.

That's not quite correct. Balance exists for a reason, even in SP games. For one, you don't want new players entering your game, creating character which will either be way too easy or, even worse, way too difficult to play. Furthermore, there's no such thing as grinding in Pillars of Eternity - without good balance, it would be absolutely possible for players to create and level their characters in such a way that they'd quite simply not be able to continue the game.

 

And then there's the good old question of quite simply having fun with the game. You might feel like your enjoyment with how specifically you play the game and with your particular builds would be improved by these changes, but can you honestly say the same for builds of other people? What if the game suddenly gets too difficult for them to continue? Or too trivial? (not saying you currently can't break the game mind you)

 

 

 

What's not correct? That PoE isn't a PvP game or that everything is viable?

 

I too like reasonable balance between classes. However, what we seem to disagree on is that not making all classes auto-attack annihilation grandmasters would produce imbalance. Or is it the slight change of base defenses the thing that would bring doom upon balance?

Class systems are great because you have to work within the strengths and weaknesses of each class. I enjoy that not everyone can cast fireballs and that not everyone can easily flatten things with a war hammer. Imagine a system where not only is there a huge gap between different classes in accuracy (BAB) and all defenses, but also in attack speed (attacks per round). *gasp*

Maybe I'm just a wizogyinst who wants to oppress casters... who knows.

[Fenixp]

What's not correct? That PoE isn't a PvP game or that everything is viable?

Oh so you intended those as two completely unrelated statements. Well in that case you're right, the game isn't PvP and everything is viable. I get a feeling that what you actually meant that since the game isn't PvP, everything is viable as player doesn't have to compete against other players. What do I know tho :-P

 

Anyway, I think the original goal of Obsidian was to give classes distinct underlying mechanics, yet give player as much freedom as possible in how they use these classes. Even minor difference like accuracy bonuses would inherently lead to different playstyles. Then again, we already do get different endurance and defense increases IIRC...

 

Maybe I'm just a wizogyinst who wants to oppress casters... who knows.

https://youtu.be/fxGqcCeV3qk?t=2m38s

Edited January 11, 2016 by Fenixp

[PrimeJunta]

Fun is the key. Some players enjoy the challenge of finishing the game with a gimped build, but most don't. A game should let you gimp a build intentionally if you want to, but trap choices that do it unintentionally are for the most part bad, as is forcing a class into a straitjacket.

 

(The latter BTW is why I dislike D&D3 prestige classes. To get there, you have to make the exact class, stat and feat choices prescribed by whoever wrote it up. It's the character-building equivalent of a colouring book. Where's the fun and creativity with that?)

[Valorian]

Fenixp: There's a strong relation, but having no PvP in a game doesn't automatically mean "everything is viable". Having no PvP certainly helps a lot in this regard because you're fighting against AI, hence why I mentioned it.

 

 

Fun is the key. Some players enjoy the challenge of finishing the game with a gimped build, but most don't. A game should let you gimp a build intentionally if you want to, but trap choices that do it unintentionally are for the most part bad, as is forcing a class into a straitjacket.

 

 

Fun isn't the key in a discussion about why something is good or bad for the game. Being able to argument why and what makes something fun is important.

 

Example.

PrimeJunta: I play the game with my back turned towards the monitor.

Me: Why?

PrimeJunta: Because it's fun!

...

 

But:

PrimeJunta: I play the game with my back turned towards the monitor.

Me: Why?

PrimeJunta: My mother is operating the mouse and keyboard, I'm giving her detailed instructions while reading a colossal guide about all possible choices and outcomes, best builds and items. It's so much fun!

Me: Okay PJ, sure!

 

 

I'm also aware that some people really dislike games with classes and would prefer a classless frankenstein, but I believe even they would be reasonable enough to dismiss a statement proclaiming that a distinct (martial) accuracy and defenses starting point would be like a straitjacket.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Fun is the key. Some players enjoy the challenge of finishing the game with a gimped build, but most don't. A game should let you gimp a build intentionally if you want to, but trap choices that do it unintentionally are for the most part bad, as is forcing a class into a straitjacket.

 

(The latter BTW is why I dislike D&D3 prestige classes. To get there, you have to make the exact class, stat and feat choices prescribed by whoever wrote it up. It's the character-building equivalent of a colouring book. Where's the fun and creativity with that?)

That's not wholly true. Most prestige classes had tons of paths to get there. Only classes that required specific abilities like evasion or specific spellcasting types narrowed your choices. But I get your point and agree with it in regards to PoE.

[plenilune]

Will 2.0.3 saves be compatible with 3.0?

[PrimeJunta]

Will 2.0.3 saves be compatible with 3.0?

 

They'll have to be. The mob will burn down Obsidian HQ if they aren't and everyone has to start from scratch rather than segueing from WM1 into WM2.

 

(Also, they always have, ever since release anyway.)

[redneckdevil]

Do we know what's actually gonna be changed with the new patch yet?

[PrimeJunta]

Do we know what's actually gonna be changed with the new patch yet?

We know quite a lot. Much of it is discussed in this very thread.

[AndreaColombo]

I asked Obs if the gameplay trailer for TWM pt. II would be coming soon, and they replied they may have something better tomorrow on Obsidian Plays ( 7.00 P.M. PDT on their Twitch channel.) It will be 3.00 A.M. for me so I'll settle for the replay, but if you're in the U.S. make sure you don't miss out