The current refugee wave in Europe

[BruceVC]

I didn't watch the video, 'cause who got time fo' that, but this guy sounds like the Henry Hill of terrorists.  

 Hurlshot  I would advise you don't watch it ...it may upset you when you see how some people will  flagrantly embellish stories and "facts " about the USA 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Watching a couple of Valsulem's videos ensured that I rarely watch anything posted by forum folk.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Of course he does. It reinforces what he already "knew".

 

That guy may have had some insight into the inner workings of al-Qaeda, and it's kind of interesting what he has to say about its fall. Although even then, everything he says has to be taken with a truckload of salt. According to him, he was kind of the central figure of al-Qaeda and the only one who had any deeper knowledge about religion, and they don't kill him for being a defector because he's such a legend in their ranks. No comment necessary.

 

It is also quite clear that while he might have been quite high-ranking when al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan, he has no insider knowledge about ISIS whatsoever. His insistence on ISIS being an American creation is based on vague allegations, lies, and hearsay. The presenter tries to get some information out of him but fails. His accusation that ISIS is American rests on two things - they didn't kill any Americans (obvious bull****), and they didn't attack Israel (had a look at a map recently? also, they're not stupid). Funnily enough, he gives a very good reason why ISIS doesn't, for instance, carry out lots of terror attacks against Israel, America, or others, from their religious own mind-set.

 

Regarding al-Qaeda, you have to filter his responses heavily, but there's probably some genuine facts in there. As for ISIS, he's been clearly out of the loop for way too long.

 

His insistence of ISIS being an American creation is based on knowing that USA created the Al-Qaeda he fought in, that is to say, the most direct experience you can have. He also implicates Jordan, Saudis, Israel, Turkey and nothing in all that sounds implausible.

 

After all ISIS depends on oil exports to sustain itself, and those exports go through Turkey, which is  NATO member which can't happen without US knowledge and compliance.

[Varana]

Let's assume that the US created al-Qaeda (it's a bit more complicated than that, but for the sake of the argument) - how is that in any way relevant to the appearance of ISIS?

The Americans supported the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan (the people who would form al-Qaeda being amongst them) against the Soviets. When the Soviets left, their puppet state fell, and the Soviet Union collapsed anyway, the Americans lost interest. After that, al-Qaeda turned to fighting the Americans themselves. Obviously, at that point at the latest, they weren't supported by the US any more. That's in the early Nineties.

More than two decades later, after - let's say - lots of stuff happening, ISIS is formed in Iraq as a split from the Iraqi branch of al-Qaeda, and several former members of Saddam Hussein's party and military. How that is in any way similar to what happened in Afghanistan in the Eighties, is beyond me.

Unless it's "the Americans supported group X, so they must have founded group Y, too", which is obvious nonsense.

 

As for Turkey, I think you vastly overestimate US control over other nations. Yes, Turkey is a NATO member - which didn't prevent them from almost going to war with fellow NATO member Greece several times (and vice versa). Turkey is a NATO member, but it could prevent the US-led coalition from using Turkish air bases for the fight against ISIS. Turkey is a NATO member, but it has no qualms about bombing the Kurds, basically the only effective ground forces in the fight against ISIS, and is getting away with it. Sure, the Americans know that ISIS smuggles oil through Turkey - even we know that, it's in the papers. That doesn't imply compliance in any way, much less causation.

 

Edit: Similarly with the Saudis. Sure, they're an American ally. That doesn't prevent them from playing their own game in the region. And as the Saudis have the oil, they can do a lot of things that run against American policy and interests. Saudi Arabia has been sponsoring radical Islamic groups quite prominently (and if not the government, then individuals) and is actively promoting a radical and very troubling Islamic sect - but that doesn't mean that they did it because the US told them so.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Varana

[Meshugger]

You guys got these conspiracy theories backwards, ISIS is a creation of Mossad, not the CIA.

 

CIA are just monitoring the situation, duh.

[Oerwinde]

You guys got these conspiracy theories backwards, ISIS is a creation of Mossad, not the CIA.

 

CIA are just monitoring the situation, duh.

They're a joint operation between Hollywood and the video game industry in order to have an alternative to Nazis as the goto real world villains.

[Darkpriest]

well, it seems that in Poland there was a historical change last weekend. A significant factor in the campaign was the matter of refugees and the way the EU wants to deal with the crisis.

 

In Poland first time in history one party has a sole majority in parliament, senate and they also have a president coming from the same party, so nearly an absolute power. Those guys are EU sceptic and anit-refugee, more like Polish "Orban".

 

I wonder how other EU countries have their internal political power shifting.

[Darkpriest]

So where is the "Western" reaction to this?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-pm-says-ankara-struck-kurdish-militia-syria-083817340.html

 

Oh wait, they sit with their mouth shut, because they prefer to make deals with people like him and Sauds, and are very selective in their views about human rights etc. EU does not want to anger Turks, because otherwise they will just let through all the migrants from ME to Europe, or even push them there, and US wants to have "ally" there same like with Sauds, who are notorious for breaking human rights.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-tells-uk-wont-lectured-human-rights-001723867.html

[Malcador]

ISIS is kind of working well for the US, hasn't really hurt the US directly, caused Iran to spend energy and money, now Russia is doing the same (and they can watch the Russian forces at work).

[BruceVC]

ISIS is kind of working well for the US, hasn't really hurt the US directly, caused Iran to spend energy and money, now Russia is doing the same (and they can watch the Russian forces at work).

Yeah you right but there were too many variables in the various events for it to be orchestrated or manipulated 

[BruceVC]

So where is the "Western" reaction to this?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/turkish-pm-says-ankara-struck-kurdish-militia-syria-083817340.html

 

Oh wait, they sit with their mouth shut, because they prefer to make deals with people like him and Sauds, and are very selective in their views about human rights etc. EU does not want to anger Turks, because otherwise they will just let through all the migrants from ME to Europe, or even push them there, and US wants to have "ally" there same like with Sauds, who are notorious for breaking human rights.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-tells-uk-wont-lectured-human-rights-001723867.html

No my friend sometimes we have to ignore certain behavior as the country is an ally. You have to ask " who is the greater threat to the region  " 

 

And its not the Saudis and there conservative and anachronistic laws...its ISIS  

[HoonDing]

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

[BruceVC]

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

 

No thats a little unfair..ISIS is much more brutal and barbaric

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

 

No thats a little unfair..ISIS is much more brutal and barbaric

Not sure about it. There is still pblic flogging, stoning and execution. Saudi forces are.not really super pro human in their intervention in Yemen. They even bombarded a neutral hospital housing yemeni rebels couple of days ago. Sauds are exactly what ISIS would become once they would secure a new country and stop warring.

[majestic]

 

 

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

 

No thats a little unfair..ISIS is much more brutal and barbaric

Not sure about it. There is still pblic flogging, stoning and execution. Saudi forces are.not really super pro human in their intervention in Yemen. They even bombarded a neutral hospital housing yemeni rebels couple of days ago. Sauds are exactly what ISIS would become once they would secure a new country and stop warring.

 

 

But Darkpriest surely you haven't thought this threw Saudis are our allies and there all right! It's not like there doing this every Friday. /snort

 

 

edit:

 

To post something useful, well, of course Erdogan is going to use the situation for his own gain. He sitting on nigh to 2 million Syrians which is a pretty damned impressive ace up the sleeve. If push comes to shove lofty ideals alway go out of the window. It's like Quark said back in DS9:

 

 

 

Let me tell you something about hu-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working... but take away their creature comforts deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same, friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.

Edited October 30, 2015 by majestic

[Zoraptor]

Erdogan's main aim at the moment is to get the pro Kurd party below the 10% (!) threshold for getting into parliament as that is the only way his AKP can get a majority. That 10% being designed specifically so that Armenians/ Kurds/ Greeks would never get representation especially after the expulsions/ genocides in the 20th century. That strategy isn't working, fortunately, and most polls put them into the low teens support wise.

 

The refugees are excellent leverage against Europe but leverage against Europe requires Erdogan to be in the Executive Presidency of his dreams, so everything is secondary to getting a majority for the AKP. If that doesn't happen the knives will be out, and that is what he's really worried about.

 

Having said that, a million plus refugees in your country is most definitely a legitimate concern, and if Europe wants them to stay in Turkey they certainly have a part to play in that as well as Turkey.

[Fighter]

 

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

 

No thats a little unfair..ISIS is much more brutal and barbaric

 

 

Saudi Arabia is soon to decapitate and then crucify someone for taking part in a protest when they were 17.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3253285/If-die-ve-happy-life-Astonishing-bravery-boy-faces-beheaded-crucified-Saudi-Arabia-taking-protest-17.html

[BruceVC]

 

 

Saudis and ISIS are peas in the same pod.

 

No thats a little unfair..ISIS is much more brutal and barbaric

 

 

Saudi Arabia is soon to decapitate and then crucify someone for taking part in a protest when they were 17.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3253285/If-die-ve-happy-life-Astonishing-bravery-boy-faces-beheaded-crucified-Saudi-Arabia-taking-protest-17.html

 

Yes but guys they are an ally of the West. Also remember that in Saudi Arabia there are two primary fractions, the clerical judiciary are the anachronistic and ostensibly brutal group that enforce there version of Sharia law. And then you have large groups of moderates who are opposed to this type of violent enforcing of Islamic law but they are also not going to confront the clerics ...so we shouldn't judge the whole country

 

Yes some of the things they enforce are appalling but our perspectives as Westerners will never agree on certain things in the ME and thats a good thing  

[Darkpriest]

So in other words you say we should have double morality... do not bat an eyelash against those who sell us oil and give space for military bases, but hinder economics and fight the ones that do not like us, because we were not very good to them in the past, like Iran?

 

What is the difference between Sauds, Assad and Iran? NONE, aside of the branch of muslim belief and who allows military presence... We either condemn ALL such behaviors and alienate all of them, or we stop playing judges and consider ourselves better than such primitives.

 

Do you think that countries like Syria and Iran do not have moderates? they do, but when the moderates in those countries want some support they gt weapon and insurgents, but if someone does the same in Saudi Arabia, they get beheaded and no one in power does anything about it.

[BruceVC]

So in other words you say we should have double morality... do not bat an eyelash against those who sell us oil and give space for military bases, but hinder economics and fight the ones that do not like us, because we were not very good to them in the past, like Iran?

 

What is the difference between Sauds, Assad and Iran? NONE, aside of the branch of muslim belief and who allows military presence... We either condemn ALL such behaviors and alienate all of them, or we stop playing judges and consider ourselves better than such primitives.

 

Do you think that countries like Syria and Iran do not have moderates? they do, but when the moderates in those countries want some support they gt weapon and insurgents, but if someone does the same in Saudi Arabia, they get beheaded and no one in power does anything about it.

I can understand how you think I'm inconsistent and how it appears my view is hypocritical

 

But its not, it makes perfect sense. I just need to explain in more detail because you have raised valid issues. I am going to try to simplify my points and be direct but if anything doesn't make sense ask and I'll clarify

 

So the first thing is you have to understand the overall strategy and view of what the West wants from the ME and what it is prepared to do to achieve this 

 

The alliance with Saudi and the USA is old and was initially about oil. But as you know the USA is now the worlds biggest producer of oil and that is also the reason why there is this  price war going and why the oil price is so low....the Saudis are determined to put the American shale producers out of business.

 

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/u-s-overtakes-saudi-arabia-russia-worlds-biggest-oil-producer/

 

Anyway I digress, the Saudis became a much better ally of the USA after 911 when they became targets of Al-Qaeda, this obviously suited the West as the Saudi have effective information gathering techniques and they used them to help prevent attacks against the USA and they also became very committed to stopping Al-Qaeda ( yes they didn't do this because they like the USA, this was about there own security but the result was the same...)

 

http://www.saudiembassy.net/files/PDF/Reports/Counterterrorism.pdf

 

I don't expect you to read the whole thing, just skim through it. The point being the Saudi were very active in helping the West and containing  Al-Qaeda in the years after 9/11...this must be recognized irrespective of there reasons 

 

 

Al-Qaeda is now gone....redundant. So the importance of this USA\Saudi alliance may seem irrelevant but it wasn't always so. 

 

Also  whether you like there laws the Saudis are the leader of  the Sunni\Gulf states in the ME and they have historically always shown less resentment to the West and have embraced many Western values and economic institutions. For example the UAE is the financial hub of the region and welcomes Westerners. So an important consideration is if  you alienate Saudi Arabia you will automatically alienate states like Qatar and UAE....this is not something to do lightly due to economic consequences 

 

So now in summary, the USA use to rely on Saudi Arabia for oil, Saudi Arabia became a real ally of the West in the ME during the war agaisnt Al-Qaeda (2004-2011 ? )  and the Saudis are the leaders of  a block of countries that the West at least understands as these countries understand things like economic growth and the importance of Western investment 

 

And you expect Obama to lecture the Saudi's about there laws that I have explained are enforced not by the Saudi royal family but by the clerics...and for what ? Because some guy gets beheaded and they don't respect women. Do you really care...they can behead another thousand people, I won't miss a second sleep..I worked in Saudi for 2 months and we all know they have barbaric laws but its not a Western issue and as I mentioned its definitely not worth jeopardizing the political relationship 

 

Now Iran....but I need a break ..let me know if you want my answer on Iran

[Fighter]

Yes but guys they are an ally of the West. Also remember that in Saudi Arabia there are two primary fractions, the clerical judiciary are the anachronistic and ostensibly brutal group that enforce there version of Sharia law. And then you have large groups of moderates who are opposed to this type of violent enforcing of Islamic law but they are also not going to confront the clerics ...so we shouldn't judge the whole country

 

 

I am not sure if you're serious or trolling right now. What being an "ally to the west"  is supposed to mean they are good now?

 

Saudi Arabia is ruled by a brutal and backwards dictatorship. It's ruled by a king who (the previous one) imprisons his own daughters and marries 15 year old girls.

 

"Two Saudi Princesses who claim to have been imprisoned by their father for 13 years have told how they are 'cut off, isolated and alone' after their mother called on President Obama to help set them free.

Princesses Sahar, 42, and Jawaher, 38, whose mother is divorced from King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, say they are effectively being held under house arrest in the royal compound in Jeddah.

They claim they are not allowed to travel or even leave their home and that the internet is their only window onto the world."

 

"Ms Alfayez was only 15 years old when she married King Abdullah, who was then in his 40s, but he divorced her just over a decade later."

 

 

King who is the west's ally. Which doesn't suggest he is any good. On the contrary it suggests western politicians are hypocrites who only care about "western values" when it suits them. Saudi Arabia is no better than any other brutal middle eastern regime.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Fighter

[BruceVC]

 

Yes but guys they are an ally of the West. Also remember that in Saudi Arabia there are two primary fractions, the clerical judiciary are the anachronistic and ostensibly brutal group that enforce there version of Sharia law. And then you have large groups of moderates who are opposed to this type of violent enforcing of Islamic law but they are also not going to confront the clerics ...so we shouldn't judge the whole country

 

 

I am not sure if you're serious or trolling right now. What being an "ally to the west"  is supposed to mean they are good now?

 

Saudi Arabia is ruled by a brutal and backwards dictatorship. It's ruled by a king who (the previous one) imprisons his own daughters and marries 15 year old girls.

 

"Two Saudi Princesses who claim to have been imprisoned by their father for 13 years have told how they are 'cut off, isolated and alone' after their mother called on President Obama to help set them free.

Princesses Sahar, 42, and Jawaher, 38, whose mother is divorced from King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, say they are effectively being held under house arrest in the royal compound in Jeddah.

They claim they are not allowed to travel or even leave their home and that the internet is their only window onto the world."

 

"Ms Alfayez was only 15 years old when she married King Abdullah, who was then in his 40s, but he divorced her just over a decade later."

 

 

King who is the west's ally. Which doesn't suggest he is any good. On the contrary it suggests western politicians are hypocrites who only care about "western values" when it suits them. Saudi Arabia is no better than any other brutal middle eastern regime.

 

No my friend, I wish you guys would stop saying the West are hypocrites for having a non-critical relationship with Saudi Arabia 

 

This is purely strategic for the reasons I mentioned. Yes sometimes getting involved in another countries implementation of religious laws is not a good idea 

 

Also I think many of you have the wrong idea of Saudi Arabia...I was there for two  separate 1 month projects, I didn't enjoy it at all. It was the worst place I ever had to work in....worse than any African country which I enjoy and understand

 

But the Saudi local people do love the royal family, when I was there someone related to the king died and the whole country went into shutdown in mourning. Also the king does do things for the local people

 

 http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41733661/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/saudi-king-offers-billions-gifts-citizens/#.VjRsnrcrIb0

 

http://www.metro.us/news/saudi-king-gives-away-32-billion/zsJobx---ydnJAFDdF3D7/

 

Also most people who live there don't mind the conservative laws as they are Muslim  and believe in the Saudi interpretation

 

And this includes the uneducated foreign laborers who the Saudi's use for all manual labor like construction and taxi drivers ..and they really get treated badly yet they dont seem to mind

 

So you mustn't think Saudi is some sort of " police fear state " like North Korea....its bad if you compare it to Western countries but its not unlivable 

[Fighter]

But the Saudi local people do love the royal family, when I was there someone related to the king died and the whole country went into shutdown in mourning. Also the king does do things for the local people

 

 http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41733661/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/saudi-king-offers-billions-gifts-citizens/#.VjRsnrcrIb0

 

http://www.metro.us/news/saudi-king-gives-away-32-billion/zsJobx---ydnJAFDdF3D7/

 

Also most people who live there don't mind the conservative laws as they are Muslim  and believe in the Saudi interpretation

 

And this includes the uneducated foreign laborers who the Saudi's use for all manual labor like construction and taxi drivers ..and they really get treated badly yet they dont seem to mind

 

So you mustn't think Saudi is some sort of " police fear state " like North Korea....its bad if you compare it to Western countries but its not unlivable 

 

 

Oh my god...

 

 

See they also "love the dear leader".

Edited October 31, 2015 by Fighter

[BruceVC]

 

But the Saudi local people do love the royal family, when I was there someone related to the king died and the whole country went into shutdown in mourning. Also the king does do things for the local people

 

 http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41733661/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/saudi-king-offers-billions-gifts-citizens/#.VjRsnrcrIb0

 

http://www.metro.us/news/saudi-king-gives-away-32-billion/zsJobx---ydnJAFDdF3D7/

 

Also most people who live there don't mind the conservative laws as they are Muslim  and believe in the Saudi interpretation

 

And this includes the uneducated foreign laborers who the Saudi's use for all manual labor like construction and taxi drivers ..and they really get treated badly yet they dont seem to mind

 

So you mustn't think Saudi is some sort of " police fear state " like North Korea....its bad if you compare it to Western countries but its not unlivable 

 

 

Oh my god...

 

 

See they also "love the dear leader".

 

No, I was there when they were mourning

 

It was real, they do have "love and respect "  for the royal family

 

Its weird how so many of you guys seem to dislike Saudi Arabia and it seems to be because of these odd examples of how there religious law gets implemented in an extreme way? I don't get why you care?

[Meshugger]

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

 

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?