Experiences with "Mental Fortress"

[AnjyBelle]

When there is something I really hate, then it is a mob, who casts confusion or charm spells.

 

Because of this, I always take "mental fortress" at level 6.

 

But does it really help?

 

It seems to be a lottery which ignores all stats and that talent.  Sometimes my characters resist, most of the time they don't.

 

I don't min/max and thus, ALL my (custom) partymembers have at least 10 INT and I play on "normal" difficulty.

 

Nevertheless, the mobs charm or confuse them at will. Even the high INT characters like chanter or cipher

can't resist most of the time.

 

I'd like to know about the experiences of other players. Perhaps I misunderstood something?

 

PS.: Please note, that this is not about tactics, like pulling mobs away and the like. It's only about the capability to resist.

Edited September 10, 2015 by AnjyBelle

[pi2repsion]

Read the log to see exactly what happens. Best guess is that you are expecting too much from the talent, excepting it to protect you from being charmed/dominated/whatnot, when its magnitude, while a respectable +10, does nothing of the sort - what it does is shift the interval for miss/graze/hit/crit by 10%.

 

So let's say that somebody tries to charm one of your characters. This works like every other attack effect in the game - it has a certain accuracy A against your defense D of the targeted defense. (Typically will for charm and domination).

 

A 1d100 is rolled, d, and the outcome of the attack is d+A-D. The outcome is then checked to see whether it is a miss, graze, hit, or crit.

 

up to 15 result in a miss.

16-50 result in a graze, that charms for 50% duration

51-100 result in a hit, that charms for 100% duration

101 or above result in a crit, that charms for 150% duration.

 

So let's look at some simple cases and ignore possible conversion talents or skills (e.g. those that convert hits to crits, grazes to misses, or whatever).

 

If your defense is equal to the accuracy, then A-D = 0, and you will be charmed in accordance with the table above, i.e. 15% chance to miss, 35% chance to graze, 50% chance to hit, 0% chance to crit. In other words, 85% charm attacks will result in you being charmed for at least 50% duration.

 

If you add +10 defense to this case, then the resulting A-D = -10, and the situation is different. Now all die rolls from 1-25 (25%) result in a miss, 26-60 (35%) in a graze, and 61-100 (40%) in a hit, 0% in a crit. You are still being charmed most of the time (75%), but less frequently than before and less frequently for the full duration. While this is definitely better, it certainly won't feel overwhelmingly better, as most of the time, the charm will succeed.

 

But what if you already had a high defense value, due to stacking protective equipment, stats, or casting buffing spells? Then the situation is different indeed.

 

As an example, if you have 50 better defense than enemy accuracy, all rolls from 1-65 (65%) will result in misses, 66-100 (35%) in grazes, and 0% in hit and crits. In this case, getting an extra +10 will cut the grazes from 35% to 25%, reducing the odds of enemy success by almost a third.

 

Now, you are unlikely to get defenses 50 better than the accuracy of the attack unless you buff your own defenses and/or debuff the attacker, but... well, that's what the spells are there for.

 

You are unlikely ever to have high enough defenses to be immune, but that's really not the point. It is all about making it less likely to be affected and ensuring that when you are affected, it is likely to be only a graze (with only 50% duration). (Of course, once you reach level 11 and get Prayer Against Treachery it becomes fairly trivial to defend yourself, as that one also cuts down on the time of the effects).

 

Note that if somebody does get charmed/dominated, you can charm/dominate them right back, having them under your control while both your and their control spells tick down, until your control spell runs out.

 

 

So is Mental Fortress worth it? In most cases, I would say not. But that's because I prefer seizing the initiative and crowd controlling those who have these abilities. But if you are building somebody with super duper will saves that are critical for surviving charm/domination attacks (typically a paladin or priest), or if you have a character that - for whatever reason - doesn't have anything more generally useful to pick, it might well be worth it.

Edited September 10, 2015 by pi2repsion

[AnjyBelle]

Thx for the insights 

 

As I wrote above, I am not one to min/max and / or the intention to build "immune to everything"-heroes.

 

Perhaps I'm still a bit too much influenced by AD&D-rules, where high wisdom plus iron will made a character

really VERY resistant against that kind of spells.

 

BTW, I learnt to simply ignore it and started to storm the places with these mushrooms, vampyrs and whatnot.

Works well.

[abaris]

I once tried it, since Aloth always got speed charmed by Fampires. It didn't work - at all. So, I don't even bother anymore with that ability. The chances of offensively preventing them from getting their spells or abilities off, are way better than the passive buffs.

Edited September 10, 2015 by abaris

[MunoValente]

There is a 4th level chant in the expansion that adds +20 will and +20 against mental attacks.  Need to be level 13 to get it, but once I got it, I made sure I took a chanter to every area that had mind control enemies.

 

As for mental fortress, I'd probably take Bull's Will first, if you haven't already, as it has broader use.

Edited September 10, 2015 by MunoValente

[Tigranes]

As explained above, it's a +10 to your save within a d100 roll. Which is like a +2 to will save in AD&D: it helps, but it doesn't mean you're suddenly shrugging off most of the will attacks. If you want it to make a big impact, you'd want to build your character in that way. That might involve higher INT/RES to raise the base will, or combining it with Bull's Will to give a highly respectable +20. None of that is really crazy minmaxing. It does mean that taking 1 ability won't give you a huge difference on its own - and yes, this is much more the case in POE than AD&D, because of the way the graze system works. So sometimes the benefit is you're paralysed for 6 seconds instead of 12.

[Torm51]

 

The only class that really stacks VERY high against Charm/Dominte is Paladin.  Most builds on a Paladin have a high Will defense because of their stats (most take either Int or Res and on defensive support builds both), Faith and Conviction and most Paladins take Righteous Soul which will add more will defense by end game most enemies either will not bother or if you force them to just fight you and bait the mind control attack it will either miss or graze you at most.

 

 

Monks also do well against mind control.

 

With other classes it is best to offensively avoid it by CCing and eliminating the target.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Torm51

[Ymarsakar]

When there is something I really hate, then it is a mob, who casts confusion or charm spells.

 

Because of this, I always take "mental fortress" at level 6.

 

But does it really help?

 

It seems to be a lottery which ignores all stats and that talent.  Sometimes my characters resist, most of the time they don't.

 

I don't min/max and thus, ALL my (custom) partymembers have at least 10 INT and I play on "normal" difficulty.

 

Nevertheless, the mobs charm or confuse them at will. Even the high INT characters like chanter or cipher

can't resist most of the time.

 

I'd like to know about the experiences of other players. Perhaps I misunderstood something?

 

PS.: Please note, that this is not about tactics, like pulling mobs away and the like. It's only about the capability to resist.

 

Take a look at the combat rolls. In an even situation of 50 accuracy vs 50 defense, 15% is miss, 35% is graze, and 50% are the hits, as far as I remember. With every one accuracy over the defense, is 1 point of extra crit chance. So the +10 defense is good for avoiding the charm having a critical duration. And it improves the graze chance within a certain range.

 

So in longer fights it shows its use because the front liners are usually the ones enemies see first so they charm them first unless there's some kind of special Ai routine running. That means the more defenses they have, the more the enemy has to cast charm on them to keep them locked up. And charm in and of itself, does little damage because your ally turned enemy has so low an accuracy. It's mostly dangerous if they get one of your chanters or dps members, then it can hurt. Against those mind controlling mushrooms, a tank with high defense against these attacks will snap out of it faster because the durations aren't as long on average. That means the mushrooms won't be able to chain cast charm on your entire party in a row.

 

I mostly deal with the charm issue on mobile mobs by controlling who they see first and using cc on them. It's only a problem for parties that are level 6 and below, since they don't have much good cc. On mushrooms, I precisely control the range at which I engage, which prevents every mushroom from attacking, since they're stuck in the ground they can't get to me.

[AndreaColombo]

There's a Priest spell that gives you +50 defense against those attacks and shortens the effect's duration. I think it's called "Prayer against treachery"; stack a "Crowns for the faithful" on top of it and enemies will have a hard time charming/dominating you

[Tennisgolfboll]

Mental fortress has been bugged for a looooooong time.

[Torm51]

Mental fortress has been bugged for a looooooong time.

You are getting to be a troll man.  There are quite a few bugs in the game yes.  Especially after 2.01 but I know for a FACT that mental fortress and the other defense talents are not bugged as I continually check the combat log when I have those talents in order to ensure that they are working properly. 

 

If you actually do think its bugged head over to the tech support forums and POST a drop box file with a saved games of yours.  You never do.

 

Like everyone has said mental fortress does not make you immune to mind controls it just shifts the dice 10% in your favor.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Torm51

[Tennisgolfboll]

If anyone is trolling its clearly you. You dont know what you are talking about mental fortress often does not work.

[Torm51]

If anyone is trolling its clearly you. You dont know what you are talking about mental fortress often does not work.

Well please enlighten us. What is it that you see that makes you say it doesn't work. I must be missing something.

[pi2repsion]

Less trolling accusations Torm51 and Tennisgolfboll, please. Why spoil the friendly mood?

 

 

If anyone is trolling its clearly you. You dont know what you are talking about mental fortress often does not work.

A quick search of the technical support forum reveals that there were two bug reports about Mental Fortress not always working properly back in April and nothing more recent.

 

If you know that it often does not work now, it can only be because you have tested it recently, unlike those of us, like me, who have been explaining to the OP how it is supposed to work and thought it did work.

 

Thus I implore you to do us all a favour and file a proper bug report with attached data that will convince the developers that it is bugged.

Edited September 11, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Torm51]

If the second one sounded trolly I am sorry.  Tennis my bad.  Didn't mean too. I actually meant if there was an issue please show us.  If you have the proof we need it on the tech support forums. 

Edited September 11, 2015 by Torm51

[Ymarsakar]

There's a Priest spell that gives you +50 defense against those attacks and shortens the effect's duration. I think it's called "Prayer against treachery"; stack a "Crowns for the faithful" on top of it and enemies will have a hard time charming/dominating you

 

What, at that high a level you aren't using overwhelming wave, mind fog, and aoe spells to kill those people from afar? That's much more satisfying than having Durance or a priest cast that spell.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Boeroer]

I used that talent together with the hand and key armour (enchantment "loyal") and some other buffs and +will items (can't remember exactly) plus the +will talent on my priest because of this stupid mushrooms and fampyrs and I had the impression that it worked well. Lots of stacking though.

[Lampros]

I used that talent together with the hand and key armour (enchantment "loyal") and some other buffs and +will items (can't remember exactly) plus the +will talent on my priest because of this stupid mushrooms and fampyrs and I had the impression that it worked well. Lots of stacking though.

 

I must've vendored this. I am going to look in various shops.

[Lampros]

Update: I just got Raiement of Wael's eyes from the first shop in WM. I may upgrade and use this. I hope I find more gear like this...

 

Edit: I guess gear with Loyal or Defiance. According to Wiki, only 4 such items - but 1 is very late-game (WM 2) and the other is Ranger only. I might test Ranger next playthrough. Goddamn, I wish I could mod out the pet.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

"Hand and Key" is a breastplate that you can find quite early in the Endless Paths.

[Lampros]

"Hand and Key" is a breastplate that you can find quite early in the Endless Paths.

 

Yup. I just went back and got it. Somehow I missed it when I ran the 2nd level. Googling is definitely my friend.

 

Do you think it's worth using a Superb or even Legendary enchant on it? How does it hold up at end-game? At Exceptional I feel I still don't have enough armor DR. Of course, perhaps this question may become a moot point, since I am getting Sacred Flame very very soon.

[Boeroer]

I never used it for long because I either have a priest or use scrolls of prayers once I have access to them.

[Lampros]

I never used it for long because I either have a priest or use scrolls of prayers once I have access to them.

 

Ah, ok. But you are talking about Mr. "Less Micromanagement is Better" here!

[Boeroer]

Yes, I only wanted to say that (and explain why) I'm not an expert with that item.