The current refugee wave in Europe

[Rosbjerg]

Typical Europeans thinking they know best what to do for Africa..

 

I know what's best for me and I assume it's all right for most other people too, ain't got nothing to do with nationality son. The right to choose for yourself and master your own fate. I'll just like to help them do that, if that help is essentially backing off, then fine.

[BruceVC]

What Bruce, you can guess about how EU problems can be dealt with but we can't do the same with African issues?

 

 

Raithe that is very cheeky......very cheeky...but well played, you got me there 

[BruceVC]

 

Typical Europeans thinking they know best what to do for Africa..

 

I know what's best for me and I assume it's all right for most other people too, ain't got nothing to do with nationality son. The right to choose for yourself and master your own fate. I'll just like to help them do that, if that help is essentially backing off, then fine.

 

Yes that is true and honest but it doesn't really help Africa ...but dont feel guilty. Your country does loads for Africa and always has. Everyone knows how the Scandinavian countries have been committed to reasonable regime change. Its probably best you don't really become too concerned with how to help Africa because then I'm  sure you will end up feeling a little guilty and depressed    

[Rosbjerg]

No I feel optimistic and hopeful, Africa is most importantly; doing better. Nigeria had a great election, birthrates are dropping, Boko Haram is widely exaggerated as a threat and is mostly operating in a small part of the country and can be combated with better education. Which is it...

 

On a personal level, a good friend of mine is funding a hospital in Tanzania with his business and supporting/managing a bike shop that makes ambulance bikes for areas with low infrastructure. All being run by Kenyans and Tanzanians, taking the business in the direction they want as the marked is evolving. The mobile marked is really interesting in Africa, circumventing the cubersome banking system and developing at an incredible rate, making micro loans possible from the local middle class to the poorer working their way up. Great for a developing entrepreneurial system. Which is historically how almost all countries have gone from developing to industrial to digital.

 

Stop believing the bull**** out of context halftruths the news are feeding you, for some reason they believe that misery sells - I stopped watching TV 10 years ago and it was one of the best decision I've ever taken. Misery out of context is depressing, but when you realize that this is the most peaceful, most healthy, most equal and generally best possible time to be alive - how can you be depressed? Go do the research yourself, for instance (although always remember source criticism) FN, WHO, the IMF etc and see the data for yourself. Things are going in an optimistic direction

 

Of course we can do even better, but isn't that really a good thing?

[BruceVC]

No I feel optimistic and hopeful, Africa is most importantly; doing better. Nigeria had a great election, birthrates are dropping, Boko Haram is widely exaggerated as a threat and is mostly operating in a small part of the country and can be combated with better education. Which is it...

 

On a personal level, a good friend of mine is funding a hospital in Tanzania with his business and supporting/managing a bike shop that makes ambulance bikes for areas with low infrastructure. All being run by Kenyans and Tanzanians, taking the business in the direction they want as the marked is evolving. The mobile marked is really interesting in Africa, circumventing the cubersome banking system and developing at an incredible rate, making micro loans possible from the local middle class to the poorer working their way up. Great for a developing entrepreneurial system. Which is historically how almost all countries have gone from developing to industrial to digital.

 

Stop believing the bull**** out of context halftruths the news are feeding you, for some reason they believe that misery sells - I stopped watching TV 10 years ago and it was one of the best decision I've ever taken. Misery out of context is depressing, but when you realize that this is the most peaceful, most healthy, most equal and generally best possible time to be alive - how can you be depressed? Go do the research yourself, for instance (although always remember source criticism) FN, WHO, the IMF etc and see the data for yourself. Things are going in an optimistic direction

 

Of course we can do even better, but isn't that really a good thing?

Oh I'm not depressed at all about Africa, I am very committed to helping the continent achieve its full potential. And yes there are pockets of brilliance on the continent...its the AU that is the failure as it lacks the political will to impact meaningful change 

 

I meant you may find it depressing as there is such a difference between your quality of life and how the average African lives and dies. So when you try to help you may find the task insurmountable...and depressing

 

Huge respect for your friend by the way, Kenya and Tanzania are considered success stories that need exactly that type of investment

[HoonDing]

"And yes there are pockets of brilliance on the continent"

 

too bad China is grabbing them all

[Rosbjerg]

I meant you may find it depressing as there is such a difference between your quality of life and how the average African lives and dies. So when you try to help you may find the task insurmountable...and depressing

 

I'm actually much more depressed at how the political situations is here, than how it is anywhere else in the world. A lot of the people here should know better, yet still act like they have a medieval education. From liberals to socialists, it always saddens me when education fails to dispel ignorance and narrowmindness. 

[BruceVC]

"And yes there are pockets of brilliance on the continent"

 

too bad China is grabbing them all

The Chinese IMO haven't helped the African continent ..its not there fault its just how they are and how there economy works 

 

They don't care about human rights or good governance so they buy commodities and build infrastructure in countries ruled by dictators. Now the Western model of assistance generally expects political reforms and often this works 

[Malcador]

I know what's best for me and I assume it's all right for most other people too, ain't got nothing to do with nationality son. The right to choose for yourself and master your own fate. I'll just like to help them do that, if that help is essentially backing off, then fine.

Yep, typical, as I said.

 

As for the migrants, apparently there's a column of them marching to Sweden. Heck of a trip.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

I meant you may find it depressing as there is such a difference between your quality of life and how the average African lives and dies. So when you try to help you may find the task insurmountable...and depressing

 

I'm actually much more depressed at how the political situations is here, than how it is anywhere else in the world. A lot of the people here should know better, yet still act like they have a medieval education. From liberals to socialists, it always saddens me when education fails to dispel ignorance and narrowmindness. 

 

Well if you ever wanted to see how a Democracy works in its early days without all the  bravado, extremism and unreasonableness  then yes Africa would fascinate you 

 

So in your country and other Western countries some people have become too clever or fixated on a new political system that seems more harmful. 

 

In South Africa you must remember the concept of a Democracy is new for 80 % of the country. But when I say new you must realize that due to the insidious nature of Apartheid most people have no idea what a Democracy means 

 

So there is loads of naive support and disappointment around our political system...its amazing to be part of it and help people to rationalize there place and identity  in the new South Africa 

 

So yes you would fit it fine

[BruceVC]

 

I know what's best for me and I assume it's all right for most other people too, ain't got nothing to do with nationality son. The right to choose for yourself and master your own fate. I'll just like to help them do that, if that help is essentially backing off, then fine.

Yep, typical, as I said.

 

As for the migrants, apparently there's a column of them marching to Sweden. Heck of a trip.

 

Malc Canada needs to take some responsibility for the Syrian refugees ..I know you feel we ignore you guys and consider you our backwater simple cousins but now is the time to step up   . All Western countries  are taking some Syrians....I guess the best way to prepare yourself is really to ask yourself " how can I make a Syrian family's life better " 

 

Obviously I can make suggestions but I would prefer you thought of your own ways of welcoming them 

[Malcador]

Nah, can't call anything in NA a backwater, that's reserved for places with more non-whites But seriously, Canada decided to try to be tough and bombed Libya and Syria, so yep, we have to take some. Harper's under some pressure to take them in, though some of it is emotional pleas to just take as many as we can because they are humans, are suffering, etc. etc., and his pushback is that we need to ensure we don't take in terrorists or wannabe jihadis. Sounds alright, but that's more a plea to his base a chunk of which undoubtedly see them as invading ragheads, heh.

 

Hopefully they ship them someplace other than Toronto, this place is too crowded as is

Edited September 10, 2015 by Malcador

[Drowsy Emperor]

I really agree with whoever said that there's a serious lack of nuance in the political debate about this, at least here in Sweden, and it's very frustrating.

 

One the one hand, you have the Swedish Democrats which are, in my opinion nutjobs, angry men with an axe to grind, who are all about good ol' swedish values (lulz) and who can't seem to shake their previous attachments to nazism. They're not fond of immigration at all. They're gathering a lot of support because...

 

... the rest of the big parties tend to be of the "WELCOME EVERYONE!!! WE'RE HUMANITARIAN UNLIKE THOSE SWEDISH DEMOCRATS!" side of things. And there's... very little middle-ground to be found.

 

I think I'm one of the soft-hearted teddybears I know of but even I see that just dumping a lot of people into another culture without good plans for integration is not a good idea. I'm all for immigration, I think of it as a valuable resource in the end. But for god's sake, the society must treat it as such. There must be a good plan for turning it into something productive, both for the immigrant obviously and also for the society which we live in.

 

But in Sweden right now, there's just the war between the two extremes. Either immigrants are BAD, or they're AWESOME LET'S GET EVERYONE!

 

It sucks.

 

What's wrong with immigrants are bad attitude? Clearly, there is no loss from not allowing them to come to Sweden. Whatever else you might argue for the "pro" side, the "contra" side has no negative effects. If Sweden is a democracy, and a lot of people don't want to share their living space with muslims from the Middle East, what about it makes them nutjobs exactly?

 

From what I read the multi-culti mantra isn't doing so well in Malmo, maybe more Swedish cities should become like it?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

tbh this talk about "incompatible cultures" is exaggerated

 

after all we've tolerated the British for centuries now

 

Exactly, just like the English have tolerated the French, and the Germans...   I wouldn't say that the cultures are incompatible, just that they are quite different in their perspectives and attitudes on certain things. As such, they need to develop ways to mesh together and find a balance.

 

Unfortunately, the EU doesn't try that. It's a duct-taped monstrosity that evolved over time as a series of bureaucratic organisations between governments and now tries to apply a top-down "do what we say" approach full of red-tape.

 

 -- Then again, you do know why God made England so small? Otherwise we would have conquered the whole planet, not just run 3/4's of it for awhile.

 

 

Lol, these were all states defined by their Christian faith, shared a common history and live in close proximity. Even with endless wars and conflicts, they are alike in many respects. Only a fool would think that the cultural distance between a Frenchman and a German is the same as between a Frenchman and a Pakistani.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Swedish ambulance union demands military gear for Muslim no-go zones.

The Swedish police recently released a map of 55 no-go zones, where law enforcement in effect have ceded control to predominantly immigrant gangs.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/swedish-ambulance-union-demands-military-gear-for-muslim-no-go-zones/

 

Is this for real?

 

 

I read that blog too, I presume its real. Quite insane to read about it happening though. It shows what happens when islamic immigrant population crosses a certain threshold. A similar thing is happening in Norway.

 

Here is more:

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/11/08/update-swedish-police-release-extensive-report-detailing-control-of-55-no-go-zones-by-muslim-criminal-gangs/

Edited September 10, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Moose]

Let me wish the Syrians good luck when they finally get re-homed in England. It'll be better life than living in the blitz torn ruins back home, obviously, but I doubt they'll find any long term happiness. Even with benefits it won't be a comfortable life. We're talking generations of catchup. The lowest worst paid jobs, with no hope of moving up the social ladder.

[BruceVC]

 

I really agree with whoever said that there's a serious lack of nuance in the political debate about this, at least here in Sweden, and it's very frustrating.

 

One the one hand, you have the Swedish Democrats which are, in my opinion nutjobs, angry men with an axe to grind, who are all about good ol' swedish values (lulz) and who can't seem to shake their previous attachments to nazism. They're not fond of immigration at all. They're gathering a lot of support because...

 

... the rest of the big parties tend to be of the "WELCOME EVERYONE!!! WE'RE HUMANITARIAN UNLIKE THOSE SWEDISH DEMOCRATS!" side of things. And there's... very little middle-ground to be found.

 

I think I'm one of the soft-hearted teddybears I know of but even I see that just dumping a lot of people into another culture without good plans for integration is not a good idea. I'm all for immigration, I think of it as a valuable resource in the end. But for god's sake, the society must treat it as such. There must be a good plan for turning it into something productive, both for the immigrant obviously and also for the society which we live in.

 

But in Sweden right now, there's just the war between the two extremes. Either immigrants are BAD, or they're AWESOME LET'S GET EVERYONE!

 

It sucks.

 

What's wrong with immigrants are bad attitude? Clearly, there is no loss from not allowing them to come to Sweden. Whatever else you might argue for the "pro" side, the "contra" side has no negative effects. If Sweden is a democracy, and a lot of people don't want to share their living space with muslims from the Middle East, what about it makes them nutjobs exactly?

 

From what I read the multi-culti mantra isn't doing so well in Malmo, maybe more Swedish cities should become like it?

 

 

Drowsy you realize you will have to start practicing to say things like " I love foreigners "  ...." I open my home to immigrants " as once Serbia joins the EU that is what will be expected 

 

 

I'm joking of course, I agree that certain integration takes time and cant be forced on people. But thats fine, it shouldn't be forced

 

I did laugh several times over the last few days during the numerous CNN live interviews where they always seemed to be filming scenes of hotspots and tension as the immigrants made there trek to get to Germany but you can see how woefully unprepared countries like Hungary and Serbia are to deal with this type of event. But they have been told " be nice on the International TV Channels "  so you see these scenes of smiling Hungarian officials pretending to really care about the plight of the Syrians 

 

And frankly I can't blame Serbia or Hungary, these countries are not use to this type of thing and its not like the ME countries have ever done anything for them 

 

 

I'm 

Edited September 10, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

Let me wish the Syrians good luck when they finally get re-homed in England. It'll be better life than living in the blitz torn ruins back home, obviously, but I doubt they'll find any long term happiness. Even with benefits it won't be a comfortable life. We're talking generations of catchup. The lowest worst paid jobs, with no hope of moving up the social ladder.

You will be surprised how many people are happy to live and work in the UK and just be safe and know there institutions work

 

They aren't that concerned with rising up the corporate ladder, they will create there own "Little Syria " communities but will be loyal to the UK and won't care about some of these extremist ideals you see in the UK from some members of the Muslim community 

[BruceVC]

Nah, can't call anything in NA a backwater, that's reserved for places with more non-whites But seriously, Canada decided to try to be tough and bombed Libya and Syria, so yep, we have to take some. Harper's under some pressure to take them in, though some of it is emotional pleas to just take as many as we can because they are humans, are suffering, etc. etc., and his pushback is that we need to ensure we don't take in terrorists or wannabe jihadis. Sounds alright, but that's more a plea to his base a chunk of which undoubtedly see them as invading ragheads, heh.

 

Hopefully they ship them someplace other than Toronto, this place is too crowded as is

Yeah I dont buy the whole " they are human beings who are suffering and we must accept them " because I see this as patronizing and just a weak attempt to convince the citizens of Western countries to " do there part " .But none of these Syrians will be extremists, as far as I know they come from the ISIS controlled areas so they just be normal moderate Muslims 

 

First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism 

 

Funny enough the West has been pressured  and major guilt has been put on all countries to assist. So this highlights the fact the West really has a conscious and does things it doesn't need to but it feels will be for the greater good 

Edited September 10, 2015 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

 

Nah, can't call anything in NA a backwater, that's reserved for places with more non-whites But seriously, Canada decided to try to be tough and bombed Libya and Syria, so yep, we have to take some. Harper's under some pressure to take them in, though some of it is emotional pleas to just take as many as we can because they are humans, are suffering, etc. etc., and his pushback is that we need to ensure we don't take in terrorists or wannabe jihadis. Sounds alright, but that's more a plea to his base a chunk of which undoubtedly see them as invading ragheads, heh.

 

Hopefully they ship them someplace other than Toronto, this place is too crowded as is

 

First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism 

 

It is actually Muslim majority countries that currently do most for the Syria crises and West actually does quite little.  As currently Muslim majority countries give most aid for Syrian, they do most of the air strikes against ISIL, they take most of the refugees and they take most of the economical hits that said crises cause. 

 

But currently everybody look after their own interest instead actually trying to find real solutions to the crises and probably hoping that crises fill burn themselves out without need of much of actual effort, but currently it seems that those hopes will not come true anytime soon and especially so that those crises don't create new crises closer to home.

[Raithe]

For the snarky political cartoon...

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nah, can't call anything in NA a backwater, that's reserved for places with more non-whites But seriously, Canada decided to try to be tough and bombed Libya and Syria, so yep, we have to take some. Harper's under some pressure to take them in, though some of it is emotional pleas to just take as many as we can because they are humans, are suffering, etc. etc., and his pushback is that we need to ensure we don't take in terrorists or wannabe jihadis. Sounds alright, but that's more a plea to his base a chunk of which undoubtedly see them as invading ragheads, heh.

 

Hopefully they ship them someplace other than Toronto, this place is too crowded as is

 

First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism 

 

It is actually Muslim majority countries that currently do most for the Syria crises and West actually does quite little.  As currently Muslim majority countries give most aid for Syrian, they do most of the air strikes against ISIL, they take most of the refugees and they take most of the economical hits that said crises cause. 

 

But currently everybody look after their own interest instead actually trying to find real solutions to the crises and probably hoping that crises fill burn themselves out without need of much of actual effort, but currently it seems that those hopes will not come true anytime soon and especially so that those crises don't create new crises closer to home.

 

I don't like disagreeing with you because we often agree on almost all SJ issues, you are a very reasonable liberal whose opinion is actually shaped on his real life experiences so I can always understand where you coming from. 

 

But I need to correct a few things about your view on this matter as I want you on my side and when I'm finished I'm sure you will agree 

 

So statistically of course some ME countries that border Syria have taken in Syrians, Turkey has 2.1 million Syrians. But here is the problem, all Syrian refugees are not integrated but kept in Refugee Camps....they are safe, have meager supplies and have some services but they can't work in the outside world or travel freely. They just stay in the camps, its not a very nice life

 

This would be considered inhumane in Western countries and not be allowed. I didn't want to mention this before because it is shameful that the Syrians are literally seen as outsiders and NO effort in these ME countries is made to integrate them. When the West integrates refugees it properly integrates them. They get housing, benefits and citizenship. So please don't think for a  second when we talk about " accepting Syrian refugees" this means the same effort and intergration for the West and ME

 

Now the aid point, people say " the Saudi give aid to Syria" ( and this applies to all countries ) but lets break this down. The Saudis do give aid to the free Syrian army fighting in Syria, they are the main ones shipping weapons and they are very involved in the war as one of the main backers of forces   opposed to Assad. I dont have an issue with this, its good that the Saudis are getting more hands on in the ME and not expecting the West to do it. But these refugees are coming out from ISIS territories. If anything the Saudis should feel responsible for this. Why cant they take in tens of thousands of Syrians, I have worked in Saudi Arabia for 3 months and trust me that country has loads of space and empty desert where they could build refugee camps 

 

Yes I agree that there is a cost to maintaining these "camps " but guess what ...do you know how much aid these ME  countries have been given by the international community? The EU has given 3.9 Billion Euro alone ...don't think for a second these ME countries don't accept aid. So I'm not sure where this economic issue is ?

 

So in summary the ME has done very little meaningful effort for the Syrians ....and there are countries that even refuse to house any Syrians. We need to get to a point where the ME must take responsibility for its own social issues ...the West can't carry the load because it creates a constant cycle of lack of responsibility

 

And Im tired of it because despite all this compromise the West is still resented and blamed 

Edited September 10, 2015 by BruceVC

[Raithe]

For the update on a classic...

 

 

 

NATIONAL LEVELS OF ALERT - THREATS TO EUROPE
From JOHN CLEESE

 

The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in Syria and have therefore raised ...their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved." Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out.

 

Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.

 

The Scots have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's get the Bastards." They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

 

The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender." The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France 's white flag factory, effectively paralysing the country's military capability.

 

Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides."

 

The Germans have increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose."

 

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels .

The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

 

Australia , meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries" to "She'll be right, Mate." Two more escalation levels remain: "Crikey! I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!" and "The barbie is cancelled." So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.

 

Regards,
John Cleese,
British writer, actor and tall person

 

And as a final thought - Greece is collapsing, the Iranians are getting aggressive, and Rome is in disarray. Welcome back to 430 BC.

 

 

 

[obyknven]

 

[Meshugger]

 

Here's a counterpoint:

 

A fair point, but also too dramatic with the spilling over of course, especially seeing as birth rates are dropping across the world.

http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2014/2014-world-population-data-sheet/data-sheet.aspx

And as you can see, basically we just need to help Africa now with literacy and development now.

 

 

No need for hyperbole, no need for exaggerations, lets take this discussion at face value - there is no "crisis", but we certainly benefit a lot more by helping nations help themselves. Especially because he's right in the fact that its basically the better offs that leave, which is a huge problem for the country they flee from.

 

 

Don't mind the gumballs falling all over the place, you only make it a dramatic effect if you wish so. About African refugees, what i don't get is despite less child birth, a significant rise in standard of living, the amount of refugees increase every year. Maybe Ghadaffi was right after all, he was the wall protecting Europe :-/

 

Back to the refugees in europe, there's been a huge influx of somalis and iraqis at the border between Finland and Sweden in Lapland of all places. Authorities are of course completely confused and do not know what to do with them. So much for those Syrians.

 

Here's a perspective of an ex-pat Syrian:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFnvFbThDE