Alright Craigholdt outright cheats.

[hk79v1]

NPC class enemies have stats far higher than possible, along with having nearly twice as many talents and abilities than possible, not to mention DOUBLED UP ABILITIES. If that's not enough, many of the enemies are level 15 when the level cap is only 14. Just...WHY Obsidian? It's not enough we're usually outnumbered 2 to 1 in the fights here but the enemies have more available talents and higher stats than possible AND doubled up passives that stack? I'm looking at YOU Mercenary Brawlers!

Edited September 3, 2015 by hk79v1

[Mechalibur]

Because it makes it challenging. Clearing the place out at level 12 was one of the toughest challenges I've faced in the game, and it was probably the most fun I've had playing PoE.

[Killyox]

There is a lot of cheesing. Like Ulmar and Shining hand monks/priests/paladins. at lvl 7 they outright devastated me and I had to split them a couple of times. With barbarian of mine whenever he hit and aoed monks each monk would proc his aoe dmg and obliterate my eder within seconds ;p They also had lvl 14 talents like ice and fire copies and so on. Meh.

 

Killed them all but it felt somewhat like cheating.

 

I won't even go to cragholdt before 12

[globalCooldown]

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

I don't really play on as high difficulties as many people on the forums, but at level 12 I made it all the way to the final boss (whom I've affectionately nicknamed "Wizard Senpai," given Aloth's reaction when you receive the quest). I would often have multiple party members dropping each encounter, and in the mercenary camp outside, those guys have no complaints about walking into your fight and aggroing on you! It's a fun little dungeon, but not for the faint of heart!

[Katarack21]

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

You seem to be misunderstanding. If what he is saying is true, then they don't SEEM to outright cheat--they ARE outright cheats. He's claiming they literally have more abilities, stat points, etc. than is actually possible to build.

 

If that's true, then it's not a case of "making a challenging enemy". It's a case of breaking the ruleset to generate overpowered enemies as a cheap and lazy way of creating challenge.

 

On the other hand, this isn't exactly unheard of in IE games. BG's enemy wizards and their five contingencies, NWN 2's beserker boss with Deathless Frenzy (which player barbarians don't get), etc.

[Oralaina]

Eh, NPCs have always been able to "cheat" - from back in the D&D/AD&D tabletop era when I started roleplaying to now in MMOs.  NPCs/bosses are not bound (and have never been bound) by the rules by which the PCs are required to play.

[globalCooldown]

 

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

You seem to be misunderstanding. If what he is saying is true, then they don't SEEM to outright cheat--they ARE outright cheats. He's claiming they literally have more abilities, stat points, etc. than is actually possible to build.

 

If that's true, then it's not a case of "making a challenging enemy". It's a case of breaking the ruleset to generate overpowered enemies as a cheap and lazy way of creating challenge.

 

On the other hand, this isn't exactly unheard of in IE games. BG's enemy wizards and their five contingencies, NWN 2's beserker boss with Deathless Frenzy (which player barbarians don't get), etc.

 

 

 

Eh, NPCs have always been able to "cheat" - from back in the D&D/AD&D tabletop era when I started roleplaying to now in MMOs.  NPCs/bosses are not bound (and have never been bound) by the rules by which the PCs are required to play.

Huh. Yeah, I can see what you guys are saying.

There ARE ways to avoid outright cheating--the easiest being, rename the buffs they're using so "no, no! they totally aren't the same ability! look, the name is different, and they stack with things that the other ability doesn't!"

The other thing to note is, I don't think NPCs have the same six-stat array that player characters do. So stats being higher than usual may just be a result of "uh gee what's a good endurance value for this guy? maybe this? yeah this."

[Oralaina]

 

 

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

You seem to be misunderstanding. If what he is saying is true, then they don't SEEM to outright cheat--they ARE outright cheats. He's claiming they literally have more abilities, stat points, etc. than is actually possible to build.

 

If that's true, then it's not a case of "making a challenging enemy". It's a case of breaking the ruleset to generate overpowered enemies as a cheap and lazy way of creating challenge.

 

On the other hand, this isn't exactly unheard of in IE games. BG's enemy wizards and their five contingencies, NWN 2's beserker boss with Deathless Frenzy (which player barbarians don't get), etc.

 

 

 

Eh, NPCs have always been able to "cheat" - from back in the D&D/AD&D tabletop era when I started roleplaying to now in MMOs.  NPCs/bosses are not bound (and have never been bound) by the rules by which the PCs are required to play.

Huh. Yeah, I can see what you guys are saying.

There ARE ways to avoid outright cheating--the easiest being, rename the buffs they're using so "no, no! they totally aren't the same ability! look, the name is different, and they stack with things that the other ability doesn't!"

The other thing to note is, I don't think NPCs have the same six-stat array that player characters do. So stats being higher than usual may just be a result of "uh gee what's a good endurance value for this guy? maybe this? yeah this."

 

 

Yah, there's a lot of dev tweaking in the boss stuff.  The point is to make an encounter where the party is totally at a disadvantage - unless the party is run by someone who thinks out of the box.  The devs really can't micromanage those out-of-the-box sorts of scenarios.

 

That being the case, what they do with boss encounters is make them so OP that people get mashed, and then don't stop to think before they say "wow.... WAY OP boss.... what were they thinking???"

Edited September 5, 2015 by Oralaina

[rheingold]

Just waiting for the obligatory "craigholdt" fights are to easy posts. Sometimes the devs just can't win.

[cycloverid]

It was pretty easy actually

[MunoValente]

Finally got around to fighting mercenary brawlers after hearing them talked up so much and I was really underwhelmed, of course I don't use glass cannon backliners and my frontliners are built to hit hard, so maybe that had something to do with it.  I didn't find it too easy or anything like that, but a long way from broken strong.

[hk79v1]

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

I don't really play on as high difficulties as many people on the forums, but at level 12 I made it all the way to the final boss (whom I've affectionately nicknamed "Wizard Senpai," given Aloth's reaction when you receive the quest). I would often have multiple party members dropping each encounter, and in the mercenary camp outside, those guys have no complaints about walking into your fight and aggroing on you! It's a fun little dungeon, but not for the faint of heart!

They don't seem to outright cheat, they DO. Take the Mercenary Brawlers for instant, they have nearly twice as many talents as should be possible for that class and stats way higher than possible. And I swear, the ability to use Monk abilities without having to incur wounds at all.

 

Finally got around to fighting mercenary brawlers after hearing them talked up so much and I was really underwhelmed, of course I don't use glass cannon backliners and my frontliners are built to hit hard, so maybe that had something to do with it.  I didn't find it too easy or anything like that, but a long way from broken strong.

Considering I roll with one main frontliner, two mid-liners and a back row of artillery for the most part, they tore through both ranks making a speed of light b-line to my Aloth and company. Of course, they've changed the way the game behaves since I last played it so if I went in there with more pure "frontliners" I probably wouldn't have had that much trouble with them. But they do outright cheat in their stats, abilities and talents.

 

Eh, NPCs have always been able to "cheat" - from back in the D&D/AD&D tabletop era when I started roleplaying to now in MMOs.  NPCs/bosses are not bound (and have never been bound) by the rules by which the PCs are required to play.

BOSSES and MONSTERS I can understand but not NPCs that are the damn same as the random mercenaries we can build! How are they MAGICALLY stronger and faster and tougher than any other possible Dwarf/Elf/Human? Without having magic items equipped to boot!

 

 

Ditto what basically everyone else is saying, and probably will continue to say. Craigholdt is endgame material. They may be powerful enemies that seem to outright cheat, but you have the advantage of equipment and tactics.

You seem to be misunderstanding. If what he is saying is true, then they don't SEEM to outright cheat--they ARE outright cheats. He's claiming they literally have more abilities, stat points, etc. than is actually possible to build.

 

If that's true, then it's not a case of "making a challenging enemy". It's a case of breaking the ruleset to generate overpowered enemies as a cheap and lazy way of creating challenge.

 

On the other hand, this isn't exactly unheard of in IE games. BG's enemy wizards and their five contingencies, NWN 2's beserker boss with Deathless Frenzy (which player barbarians don't get), etc.

 

Thank you, that's what I am saying exactly. I used the console commands to check all the mercenaries and enemies out. Oh and the Ancient Death Knights? An infinite usage 'Finger of Death' that does several hundred Raw damage in a few seconds against Fortitude with an accuracy of 75 and the games penchant for rolling sub-50 on OUR saving throws...

 

Also just because IE did it doesn't mean Obsidian should continue the trend of "enemies that break the in-game rules".

[lonelornfr]

NPC class enemies have stats far higher than possible, along with having nearly twice as many talents and abilities than possible, not to mention DOUBLED UP ABILITIES. If that's not enough, many of the enemies are level 15 when the level cap is only 14. Just...WHY Obsidian? It's not enough we're usually outnumbered 2 to 1 in the fights here but the enemies have more available talents and higher stats than possible AND doubled up passives that stack? I'm looking at YOU Mercenary Brawlers!

 

 

And yet they're all dead now. Winners dont use drugs.

[Sin2x]

Man, is this Gleaming Society fight unbalanced. There is no curve at all -- I've just been taking out Ogres in Russelwood with no problems and then 10 minutes later I get obliterated by these guys no matter what tactics I try. Seems like a bad design to me.

 

I'm pretty sure people will rush to defend Obsidian and tell me how my party is bad, my items are worthless and my stats are not minmaxed enough and that I need to wait a couple of levels before I return to that fight. Well, guess what -- I don't want to minmax and I don't see any reason to wait -- nothing in the story warrants that. And that's Normal difficulty for you. Bah. 

 

</end_rant>

 

P.S. started the expansion at level 8 while the recommended range is 5-8. Reading that people in the thread have been tackling the fight at level 12 feels utterly insane -- there is simply no way to get that much experience when you reach the Longwatch falls unless you stop your adventure in White March and return to Dyrwood -- which -- again - is bad design in my opinion.

 

P.P.S Managed to kill them by luring out to the narrow area. I'm still unconvinced that such a minor fight needs to be that difficult.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Sin2x

[Kaylon]

I don't understand either why they have to cheat their stats instead of making them 10lvls higher... The toughest bosses/enemies have stats like a legit lv25-30... 

[Sin2x]

I don't understand either why they have to cheat their stats instead of making them 10lvls higher... The toughest bosses/enemies have stats like a legit lv25-30... 

I'd consider it OK if only bosses we involved -- they are bosses after all and you know that you need to prepare. But some random mercenary band that does'n even have dialogue before the fight? Preposterous. 

 

I remember that in Icewind Dale II -- which I consider the be the best combat-oriented RPG -- there was only one more or less difficult fight on Normal, and then it was optional -- the fight for Paladin's sword. I wish PoE could be the same, unless you play on Hard.

[Braven]

I agree that it is kind of evil to place a high level encounter in a much lower level area in a spot where you are likely to accidently run into them.  Why not tuck them in a cave, at least?  I guess it does add a bit of realism and an unexpected surprise.  Naturally, you wouldn't have a world "carved up" into level-specific regions if this were a real, fantasy world.

 

I think the worst is if you are playing an Iron Man game and don't have total knowledge of the game.  You could just walk into your death for no reason against enemies that have no place in the plot.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Braven

[Ineth]

Man, is this Gleaming Society fight unbalanced. There is no curve at all -- I've just been taking out Ogres in Russelwood with no problems and then 10 minutes later I get obliterated by these guys no matter what tactics I try. Seems like a bad design to me.

 

Bounties are explicitly designed as optional combat challenges that are more difficult than the surrounding content.

 

If you don't want that kind of challenge, don't accept bounty quests.

[Sin2x]

 

Man, is this Gleaming Society fight unbalanced. There is no curve at all -- I've just been taking out Ogres in Russelwood with no problems and then 10 minutes later I get obliterated by these guys no matter what tactics I try. Seems like a bad design to me.

 

Bounties are explicitly designed as optional combat challenges that are more difficult than the surrounding content.

 

If you don't want that kind of challenge, don't accept bounty quests.

 

And just how would I know that before you told me? There is no indication of that in-game AFAIR. Am I missing something?

[Ineth]

And just how would I know that before you told me?

 

The Caed Nua bounties slowly introduce you to the concept.

 

The first bounties you get in Caed Nua are not too difficult, and spawn in areas you will have already cleared (so that they won't interfere with exploration). Then they get progressively more difficult, and start to appear in areas you may not have explored yet.

 

Then by the time you get to the White March and get offered the Stalwart bounties, you should already know what to expect...

[MountainTiger]

 

And just how would I know that before you told me?

 

The Caed Nua bounties slowly introduce you to the concept.

 

The first bounties you get in Caed Nua are not too difficult, and spawn in areas you will have already cleared (so that they won't interfere with exploration). Then they get progressively more difficult, and start to appear in areas you may not have explored yet.

 

Then by the time you get to the White March and get offered the Stalwart bounties, you should already know what to expect...

 

 

I think the description of the building at Caed Nua where you get the base game bounties includes a description of them as high-challenge combat encounters. The Stalwart bounties aren't flagged as well, and it's pretty easy to get to Stalwart and accept a bounty there without having tried any of the Caed Nua bounties.

[Sin2x]

 

And just how would I know that before you told me?

 

The Caed Nua bounties slowly introduce you to the concept.

 

The first bounties you get in Caed Nua are not too difficult, and spawn in areas you will have already cleared (so that they won't interfere with exploration). Then they get progressively more difficult, and start to appear in areas you may not have explored yet.

 

Then by the time you get to the White March and get offered the Stalwart bounties, you should already know what to expect...

 

The thing is, by the time I got the building that offers bounties in Caed Nuam I was already level 8 and a little tired of Dyrwood and decided to go straight to WM so I had no knowledge of the difficulty of bounty hunting.

[Ineth]

Fair enough. First-time players who go to the White March early, may not have been considered sufficiently by the game designers.