Tips to deal with this new updates aggro

[HerbSalad]

Hi, I'm a newbie to PoE. I read a guide pertaining to the old style of "tank and spank" with the older version of the game (where monsters and baddies generally stuck on your tank) and specced my rogue to be mainly dps and not much survivability.

 

After the update, I've seen a couple posts here and there basically mirroring my thoughts: the game is different, its annoying to deal with combat now, and a lot of newbs like me are just avoiding playing the game. I'd like to make a thread where we can give tips on how to respec or re-arm our parties to deal with these pesky enemies that constantly raid the backline. So far I've given my rogue and mage heavier armor, as well as equipped a nice two handed sword on my tank for more dps and better disengagement attacks.

 

what i've done is just sort of hybridize all my characters to be more tanky if they are dps and be more dps if they are tanky. any specific tips and builds would be appreciated here. Thanks.

[Cantousent]

Moved to character builds. Left a redirect at General. Good luck, HerbSalad and happy adventuring!

[happybuddha]

Currently, the AI is targeting squishier characters more intelligently at the start of combat. Without using narrow doors/pathways to force enemies to target your tanks, I've found the best way of controlling who gets attacked is sending your melee "tanks" to start the fight well ahead of your other characters, then move those characters in after combat is already engaged.

Once all the enemies have a target, I've found they rarely change it up. This will mean of course possibly changing your formation when walking around so you dont get surprised in a nasty way. 

 

In a way I like this change better, it actually gives people a reason to occasionally use the escape mechanics their class has built in. It is annoying if you were used to pre 2.0 though.

[DarkFledgling]

I'm playing through the new WM content on PotD difficulty using a a full new character and a full party of hirelings. I wanted to do a second play through of the original game anyway (my first was on Hard, very different). The biggest change for me has been the NUMBER of mobs. See, even if my tanks COULD hold onto every monster they engaged, there would still be 3 more dood's trying to flood my backline. Here's my combat tips for dealing with it. 

 

1) use choke points. Never fight in a big open area, you get swarmed and ownd. Use natural chokepoints to funnel enemies up against your tanks (I have a Monk and Barbarian, both oriented for control/debuffing)

2) use whispers of treason. You know theres a cipher in your party, and you can cast whispers right at the start of the fight. My strat is to charm the biggest stupidist looking guy, but try to pick an enemy who is between you and more enemies. He'll turn around and you'll have three ogre's punching each other for 10-15 secs.

3) use ALL YOUR BUFFS. If you do not start every fight by casting 2-3 buffs and 1-2 debuffs you will die. Anything that effects deflection, accuracy, resolve, perception, or recovery speed. Monsters in PotD have bigger stats then you, and if you don't use your spells to balance it out in the first few seconds of combat, some dude with rifle will crit and oneshot your DPS.

4) Paralyze and Knockdown. MOAR CC, even paralyzing some baddie for 5 seconds can be huge. It gives you enough time to heal back some endurance, or reposition your casters farther away. Switch up the type of CC also, it'll take me 3 fetid carcass casts to keep dat Ogre CC'd for 15 secs, or one repulser seal which will know down 3 ogres for just as long, each mob is more vulnerable to a different type of control.

5) Don't be afraid to disengage and run. Talents like Fast Runner, or abilities that give bonus deflection when disengaging can be GREAT for your casters (arcane Veil/Fleet foot for Wizards). When that enemy takes the disengage attack from your tank, pause the game and run your casters away! That baddie is coming for them! Figure out which guy he's running towards and use someone else to intercept of CC him so you can escape.

 

As far as going back to tweak previous parties? I can't speak to that (since i made a whole new party) but I'd just make sure you didnt leave Perception as a dump stat on anyone, as the accuracy is pretty beneficial. I gave my casters some hide armor (wanted that freeze DR) to protect from the WM mobs always throwing balls of cold at me, and made sure to have very careful positioning before each fight starts.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts. Happy Adventuring!

[hk79v1]

I'm playing through the new WM content on PotD difficulty using a a full new character and a full party of hirelings. I wanted to do a second play through of the original game anyway (my first was on Hard, very different). The biggest change for me has been the NUMBER of mobs. See, even if my tanks COULD hold onto every monster they engaged, there would still be 3 more dood's trying to flood my backline. Here's my combat tips for dealing with it. 

 

1) use choke points. Never fight in a big open area, you get swarmed and ownd. Use natural chokepoints to funnel enemies up against your tanks (I have a Monk and Barbarian, both oriented for control/debuffing)

2) use whispers of treason. You know theres a cipher in your party, and you can cast whispers right at the start of the fight. My strat is to charm the biggest stupidist looking guy, but try to pick an enemy who is between you and more enemies. He'll turn around and you'll have three ogre's punching each other for 10-15 secs.

3) use ALL YOUR BUFFS. If you do not start every fight by casting 2-3 buffs and 1-2 debuffs you will die. Anything that effects deflection, accuracy, resolve, perception, or recovery speed. Monsters in PotD have bigger stats then you, and if you don't use your spells to balance it out in the first few seconds of combat, some dude with rifle will crit and oneshot your DPS.

4) Paralyze and Knockdown. MOAR CC, even paralyzing some baddie for 5 seconds can be huge. It gives you enough time to heal back some endurance, or reposition your casters farther away. Switch up the type of CC also, it'll take me 3 fetid carcass casts to keep dat Ogre CC'd for 15 secs, or one repulser seal which will know down 3 ogres for just as long, each mob is more vulnerable to a different type of control.

5) Don't be afraid to disengage and run. Talents like Fast Runner, or abilities that give bonus deflection when disengaging can be GREAT for your casters (arcane Veil/Fleet foot for Wizards). When that enemy takes the disengage attack from your tank, pause the game and run your casters away! That baddie is coming for them! Figure out which guy he's running towards and use someone else to intercept of CC him so you can escape.

 

As far as going back to tweak previous parties? I can't speak to that (since i made a whole new party) but I'd just make sure you didnt leave Perception as a dump stat on anyone, as the accuracy is pretty beneficial. I gave my casters some hide armor (wanted that freeze DR) to protect from the WM mobs always throwing balls of cold at me, and made sure to have very careful positioning before each fight starts.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts. Happy Adventuring!

All sound advice but we shouldn't have to use EVERY buff we have in every combat scenario just to get past it.

[DarkFledgling]

All sound advice but we shouldn't have to use EVERY buff we have in every combat scenario just to get past it.

Your right, I exaggerate when i said ALL your buffs. a few select ones will serve you very well. I open up my fights by casting Armor of Faith and Circle of healing from my priest and Fetid Carcass from my wizard. Combined with some nice per encounter debuffs/casts like Barbarian Yell, and Whispers of Treason from my Cipher, it significantly changes the pace of the battle. Thats basically 1 to 2 spells per character in the first few seconds of combat, which I don't think is too much.

 

Sure on Hard difficulty everyone could just cast offensive spells right off the bat, as it would kill the squishier monsters easily. But if you play on Path of the Damned like I am, monsters have too much HP to just nuke on sight everytime. The new AI combined with playing on PotD has created an incredibly engaging and challenging experience for me. I know not everyone will agree, but when I'm getting my ass handed to me and reloading, nothing is better then finally executing your positioning and spells perfectly and dominating the battle. Some people just like to be challenged.

[Torm51]

 

I'm playing through the new WM content on PotD difficulty using a a full new character and a full party of hirelings. I wanted to do a second play through of the original game anyway (my first was on Hard, very different). The biggest change for me has been the NUMBER of mobs. See, even if my tanks COULD hold onto every monster they engaged, there would still be 3 more dood's trying to flood my backline. Here's my combat tips for dealing with it. 

 

1) use choke points. Never fight in a big open area, you get swarmed and ownd. Use natural chokepoints to funnel enemies up against your tanks (I have a Monk and Barbarian, both oriented for control/debuffing)

2) use whispers of treason. You know theres a cipher in your party, and you can cast whispers right at the start of the fight. My strat is to charm the biggest stupidist looking guy, but try to pick an enemy who is between you and more enemies. He'll turn around and you'll have three ogre's punching each other for 10-15 secs.

3) use ALL YOUR BUFFS. If you do not start every fight by casting 2-3 buffs and 1-2 debuffs you will die. Anything that effects deflection, accuracy, resolve, perception, or recovery speed. Monsters in PotD have bigger stats then you, and if you don't use your spells to balance it out in the first few seconds of combat, some dude with rifle will crit and oneshot your DPS.

4) Paralyze and Knockdown. MOAR CC, even paralyzing some baddie for 5 seconds can be huge. It gives you enough time to heal back some endurance, or reposition your casters farther away. Switch up the type of CC also, it'll take me 3 fetid carcass casts to keep dat Ogre CC'd for 15 secs, or one repulser seal which will know down 3 ogres for just as long, each mob is more vulnerable to a different type of control.

5) Don't be afraid to disengage and run. Talents like Fast Runner, or abilities that give bonus deflection when disengaging can be GREAT for your casters (arcane Veil/Fleet foot for Wizards). When that enemy takes the disengage attack from your tank, pause the game and run your casters away! That baddie is coming for them! Figure out which guy he's running towards and use someone else to intercept of CC him so you can escape.

 

As far as going back to tweak previous parties? I can't speak to that (since i made a whole new party) but I'd just make sure you didnt leave Perception as a dump stat on anyone, as the accuracy is pretty beneficial. I gave my casters some hide armor (wanted that freeze DR) to protect from the WM mobs always throwing balls of cold at me, and made sure to have very careful positioning before each fight starts.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts. Happy Adventuring!

 

All sound advice but we shouldn't have to use EVERY buff we have in every combat scenario just to get past it.

 

I'm playing through the new WM content on PotD difficulty using a a full new character and a full party of hirelings. I wanted to do a second play through of the original game anyway (my first was on Hard, very different). The biggest change for me has been the NUMBER of mobs. See, even if my tanks COULD hold onto every monster they engaged, there would still be 3 more dood's trying to flood my backline. Here's my combat tips for dealing with it. 

 

1) use choke points. Never fight in a big open area, you get swarmed and ownd. Use natural chokepoints to funnel enemies up against your tanks (I have a Monk and Barbarian, both oriented for control/debuffing)

2) use whispers of treason. You know theres a cipher in your party, and you can cast whispers right at the start of the fight. My strat is to charm the biggest stupidist looking guy, but try to pick an enemy who is between you and more enemies. He'll turn around and you'll have three ogre's punching each other for 10-15 secs.

3) use ALL YOUR BUFFS. If you do not start every fight by casting 2-3 buffs and 1-2 debuffs you will die. Anything that effects deflection, accuracy, resolve, perception, or recovery speed. Monsters in PotD have bigger stats then you, and if you don't use your spells to balance it out in the first few seconds of combat, some dude with rifle will crit and oneshot your DPS.

4) Paralyze and Knockdown. MOAR CC, even paralyzing some baddie for 5 seconds can be huge. It gives you enough time to heal back some endurance, or reposition your casters farther away. Switch up the type of CC also, it'll take me 3 fetid carcass casts to keep dat Ogre CC'd for 15 secs, or one repulser seal which will know down 3 ogres for just as long, each mob is more vulnerable to a different type of control.

5) Don't be afraid to disengage and run. Talents like Fast Runner, or abilities that give bonus deflection when disengaging can be GREAT for your casters (arcane Veil/Fleet foot for Wizards). When that enemy takes the disengage attack from your tank, pause the game and run your casters away! That baddie is coming for them! Figure out which guy he's running towards and use someone else to intercept of CC him so you can escape.

 

As far as going back to tweak previous parties? I can't speak to that (since i made a whole new party) but I'd just make sure you didnt leave Perception as a dump stat on anyone, as the accuracy is pretty beneficial. I gave my casters some hide armor (wanted that freeze DR) to protect from the WM mobs always throwing balls of cold at me, and made sure to have very careful positioning before each fight starts.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts. Happy Adventuring!

 

All sound advice but we shouldn't have to use EVERY buff we have in every combat scenario just to get past it.

It's PoTD it's hard, the AI is better and with the deflection nerf your tanks will take more hits so you will probably have to rest more. Adapt and overcome.

[Katarack21]

Tanking is pointless. There is no tanking. Tanking does not function. The engagement mechanic no longer really does ****. They consistently break engagement virtually every time--it's like it isn't there.

You need to use CC to control enemy position. That's pretty much it. There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

[Torm51]

Tanking is pointless. There is no tanking. Tanking does not function. The engagement mechanic no longer really does ****. They consistently break engagement virtually every time--it's like it isn't there.

 

You need to use CC to control enemy position. That's pretty much it. There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

The only one caveat to that is that Plate wearers in melee who do not have some Defense stats get crushed too.  A tank is useful,  you just have to use him differently.  Inside corridors you can use him to block doors and tank traditionally.  In open areas you have to goad the AI into attacking him by lowering his deflection.  When I am out in the open I charge my tank with a single handed weapon and no shield in his hand.  The AI sees much lower deflection and dog piles him.  Obviously he takes more damage.  Once its too much I switch my shield.  I also have a full time off tank to pick up disengagements. 

 

PS: MOBILITY  MOBILITY  MOBILITY

 

My new favorite Aura for a Paladin is Zealous Charge.  Mobility in open areas is crucial now for the reasons you stated.  My Paladin also has a high Int so Zealous Charge hits even my back line (Yes I lost some Con  because of the high Int but you cant have everything)  I lose engagement and kite my backline thanks to ZC reengaging with my frontline.  Also 2handed fighters like I specced Eder destroy with disengagement attacks so I welcome it.

[Katarack21]

 

Tanking is pointless. There is no tanking. Tanking does not function. The engagement mechanic no longer really does ****. They consistently break engagement virtually every time--it's like it isn't there.

 

You need to use CC to control enemy position. That's pretty much it. There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

The only one caveat to that is that Plate wearers in melee who do not have some Defense stats get crushed too.  A tank is useful,  you just have to use him differently.  Inside corridors you can use him to block doors and tank traditionally.  In open areas you have to goad the AI into attacking him by lowering his deflection.  When I am out in the open I charge my tank with a single handed weapon and no shield in his hand.  The AI sees much lower deflection and dog piles him.  Obviously he takes more damage.  Once its too much I switch my shield.  I also have a full time off tank to pick up disengagements. 

 

PS: MOBILITY  MOBILITY  MOBILITY

 

My new favorite Aura for a Paladin is Zealous Charge.  Mobility in open areas is crucial now for the reasons you stated.  My Paladin also has a high Int so Zealous Charge hits even my back line (Yes I lost some Con  because of the high Int but you cant have everything)  I lose engagement and kite my backline thanks to ZC reengaging with my frontline.  Also 2handed fighters like I specced Eder destroy with disengagement attacks so I welcome it.

 

I put Boots of Speed (+3 Movement speed) on both of my offtanks (yup, I'm running two off tanks--one pure offtank, one offtank/support casting) and have all three of the tanks equipped with two-handers in one weapon slot and weapon/shield combos in the other for exactly that reason. I also put a Girdle of the Breaking Wave on both off-tanks so they have one knockdown per encounter each. Between them and Eder, they can generally hold a line for a least a little while.

 

I open every battle with Amplified Wave from my cipher and a Wall of Force (for the hobbling effect) from Aloth, then alternate damage spells and CC spells between them, while my three tanks (with their two-handers swinging) draw the enemies. By the time they get back up there's usually at least one paralyzed and two with various states of confusion. The ones who aren't get knocked down again. At this point I switch them over to shield if I haven't already.

 

It tends to draw the fights out, but it works.

[Torm51]

 

 

Tanking is pointless. There is no tanking. Tanking does not function. The engagement mechanic no longer really does ****. They consistently break engagement virtually every time--it's like it isn't there.

 

You need to use CC to control enemy position. That's pretty much it. There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

The only one caveat to that is that Plate wearers in melee who do not have some Defense stats get crushed too.  A tank is useful,  you just have to use him differently.  Inside corridors you can use him to block doors and tank traditionally.  In open areas you have to goad the AI into attacking him by lowering his deflection.  When I am out in the open I charge my tank with a single handed weapon and no shield in his hand.  The AI sees much lower deflection and dog piles him.  Obviously he takes more damage.  Once its too much I switch my shield.  I also have a full time off tank to pick up disengagements. 

 

PS: MOBILITY  MOBILITY  MOBILITY

 

My new favorite Aura for a Paladin is Zealous Charge.  Mobility in open areas is crucial now for the reasons you stated.  My Paladin also has a high Int so Zealous Charge hits even my back line (Yes I lost some Con  because of the high Int but you cant have everything)  I lose engagement and kite my backline thanks to ZC reengaging with my frontline.  Also 2handed fighters like I specced Eder destroy with disengagement attacks so I welcome it.

 

I put Boots of Speed (+3 Movement speed) on both of my offtanks (yup, I'm running two off tanks--one pure offtank, one offtank/support casting) and have all three of the tanks equipped with two-handers in one weapon slot and weapon/shield combos in the other for exactly that reason. I also put a Girdle of the Breaking Wave on both off-tanks so they have one knockdown per encounter each. Between them and Eder, they can generally hold a line for a least a little while.

 

I open every battle with Amplified Wave from my cipher and a Wall of Force (for the hobbling effect) from Aloth, then alternate damage spells and CC spells between them, while my three tanks (with their two-handers swinging) draw the enemies. By the time they get back up there's usually at least one paralyzed and two with various states of confusion. The ones who aren't get knocked down again. At this point I switch them over to shield if I haven't already.

 

It tends to draw the fights out, but it works.

 

legit strategy for sure.   I know at first it was hurting but you are doing good now.  Awesome!

[abaris]

Well, one things for sure. My usual tactics don't work anymore - and I quite like it.

 

I started a new game with 2.0 and the expansion on normal. My usual hard run isn't an option as long as I don't have learned the ropes of the new mechhanics and the companion AI.

Edited August 29, 2015 by abaris

[Torm51]

Same.  Started a fresh run.

[sims796]

Oh, and start using potions and the like. I've found myself using consumables far more often. God, I love that Paralysis scroll.

[Katarack21]

I went right to Cragholdt Bluffs because the Steward told me if I didn't take care of it immediately it might be a problem for Caed Nua. At level 11 I got my face stomped, doing each fight three or four times. It was easily the most frustrating thing I've experience in gaming in a while.

After getting into the fort--but not completing the quests--I found out it was the high-level area and I got my ass over to the White March. I've completed all of that now (except the Alpine Dragon, which bugged out hard on me) and I'm back to see if Cragholdt is any easier at level lvl 13 with a bunch of upgraded equipment and my new tactical set up.

[Sensuki]

There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

 

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

[AndreaColombo]

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

 

Amen, brother.

 

Though playing without through the IE Mod actually made combat interesting for me.

 

Are you going to give it another try now that we've got better A.I.?

 

Really, PoE is a good game man After all the time and effort you put into the beta, it would be a shame to just let go of it.

[pi2repsion]

 

There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

 

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

 

I am replaying on PoTD for 2.0, and find that I really like the current engagement/AI mechanic: It is now an effective limit on the battlespace a character can control via attacks of opportunity rather than magical glue.

 

Don't get me wrong - there are still some glue aspects to it, but whether due to changes to the engagement mechanic or to enemy AI, it doesn't dominate to the degree it did in 1.0. Some enemies respect it, some do not, and those that don't get punished via disengagement attacks.

 

With the changes, proper tactical use of several melee characters on the front line and taking advantage of terrain and magical control and environmental effects to restrict enemy movement is needed if I want to protect a fragile rear line of archer or magic-users, and having the rear able to protect itself in an emergency has become imperative for the times when controlling the battlespace fails, especially for characters with low-DR armour, making the tradeoff of running around with next to no armour on the rear line for minimal recovery penalty much more interesting: It makes the character a much more interesting target.

 

(Especially fun for wizards that may now want to slot rather more defensive spells in their grimories than they did previously.)

 

I can only applaud this slight move towards behaviour common in the RPGs I grew up with and loved (D&D 1st-3rd edition) over the modern "tactics are hard for players, so we glue enemies to the tank by aggro mechanics or taunting so the players can concentrate on dealing damage".

Edited August 30, 2015 by pi2repsion

[Katarack21]

 

There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

 

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

 

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but right now it doesn't do anything anyway so it's entirely moot.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

 

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

 

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but right now it doesn't do anything anyway so it's entirely moot.

 

He's right tho.

Before the patch engagement was moot because everybody swarmed your tank no matter his engagement slots.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

There is no longer any point to engagement at all.

 

It was a bad mechanic to begin with and I told everyone so.

 

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but right now it doesn't do anything anyway so it's entirely moot.

 

He's right tho.

Before the patch engagement was moot because everybody swarmed your tank no matter his engagement slots.

 

Not in my experience, unless you were forcing a chokepoint our something. Before the patch they engaged up to the limit, moved on when they didn't, etc. You may like a sticky combat mechanic, you may not like a sticky combat mechanic, the point is tanks could tank. Having a tank...tank...was a viable strategy before; now it's pointless to even try. CC and mobility are what you have to use, because engagement is effectively negated as a combat mechanic when every enemy on the map simply ignores it.

[abaris]

It's a totally different game, as far as mechanics are concerned. I just had an encounter with two forrest lurkers and what was once a cakewalk on hard, was now the doom of my party on normal. At least on that level.

 

Also, I noticed, there are much more class abilities to choose from when levelling.

[khadoran]

I came back to continue my second playthrough( i use 2 player made characters, rest are companions ) after i bought white march.

I have not really notice a difference but then i run 2 shield guys. Picked up the monk in white march over my bard and its been doing great. Maybe some of you expect 1 tank to hold 5-6 enemies solo? Confuse is kinda great spell too.

 

The new dragon 1 shot my guy allmost though. Think i will try him later. Doesn't have anything to do with the tanks really.

Edited August 31, 2015 by khadoran

[Wolken3156]

It hasn't really affected my playstyle that much. The only thing now is I'm more aware that my rear line is more vulnerable to enemies rushing at them. I prefer heavy crowd control tactics though, which of course would be the best way to deal with it, but frankly, its a pretty healthy playstyle. Actually using the tools the game gives you is way better than having mooks surround your tank while you auto-attack them with ranged weapons, rinsing and repeating over and over.

 

Most classes though have actual counters to such things nowadays anyway.

 

Wizard? Pop Arcane Veil, bam, now your a tank!

Druid? Shapeshifting is viable now. Transform and make them regret coming to you.

Priest? They have trap spells for a reason.

Cipher? Mental Binding and retreat. Or since they're behind your front line, use Ectopsychic Echo.

Rogue? Use Escape or Coordinated Positioning.

Ranger? Uhh... Binding Roots?

 

Alternatively, just run a full crew of melee. Its actually perfectly viable.

 

My only real complaint with the new AI though is that it makes defensively built characters no longer viable. There's zero reason to bring along a Fighter decked out with all kinds of defensive gear and abilities, since they contribute nothing. Enemies won't attack them as often (Without careful positioning) and they have no offensive presence. In fact, if anything, the game is now encouraging a very offense heavy mindset.

[Ymarsakar]

1.0 or beta builds had engagement, but not very smart AI for the mobs. So the standard tactic was to send in one heavy deflection tank and everyone else was in naked shooting dps. After some updates, somewhere around 1.05, they added in better AI, although spirits always could flash step to your backlines when they felt like it.

 

I used the primary tank philosophy, but I chose to get a lot closer so needed an off tank to catch enemies in PotD that would go around the front, by trying to circle around each other and get to the tank, when they were blocked.

 

The dangerous situations were generally when my tank blocked a chokepoint, but there were 10 enemies on the other side. If even one slipped past, it would cause havoc on the back. When enemies slipped past, the engagement mechanic allowed the off tank to stop the enemy from moving to the dps.

 

2.0 or white march seemed to have added player scripted AI, but only tweaked the 1.06 AI a little bit. Or perhaps made the AI they used in Caed Nua more applicable to the rest of PoE.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ymarsakar