Best Order for a Paladin Tank?

[jsaving]

Hello everyone, I have no experience with a paladin as my main tank and thought I'd give it a try as an alternative to the fighter I've used in my other run-throughs.  However, I'm having a hard time discerning which paladin order(s) would be best for the tank role.  Any thoughts on this?  And on the other side of the coin, are there paladin order(s) that would be especially poor choices for a tank?    

[Nobear]

Hello everyone, I have no experience with a paladin as my main tank and thought I'd give it a try as an alternative to the fighter I've used in my other run-throughs.  However, I'm having a hard time discerning which paladin order(s) would be best for the tank role.  Any thoughts on this?  And on the other side of the coin, are there paladin order(s) that would be especially poor choices for a tank?    

 

Hi there,

 

I'd say either Darkozzi or Shieldbearer. Darkozzi has a talent for Flames of Devotion to grant yourself a weak form of Flame Shield for 15 sec, but the really popular talent modifies Liberating Exhortation to grant +10 accuracy to an ally for 20 sec, and this can be applied twice to the same ally to stack! It's especially popular to give a cipher super high accuracy to keep things CCd. In patch 2.0 the accuracy of your allies might be high enough vs most enemies, but perhaps for the really tough ones like Adra Dragon it could still make a meaningful difference.

 

Shieldbearer has a talent for Flames of Devotion to grant nearby allies +10 Deflection for 10 sec. The only caveat is it doesn't apply to yourself, but it can help other tanks/offtanks/melee you have, and even ranged if things get messy. I was questioning my choice to make my paladin a Moon Godlike Shieldbearer, but in 2.0 tanks will be a bit squishier across the board, so I can see both abilities becoming useful in more fights than they currently are, especially on PoTD.

[Raven Darkholme]

I personally like Goldpact because you can not only get Gift from the machine, but sacrifice Eder (or another companion) to the blood pool and gain 2 Might +2 Deflection.

Also in the songbird quest, there is a cruel dialogue, which if you don't want even 1 point in, might be too much already for a pala that despises cruelty.

[Torm51]

I agree with my fellow Paladin vets of Raven and no bear.  The best from a game play style are the Darcozzi Paladini and the Shieldbearers of St. Elcga.  Darcozzi is number one because of the liberating exhortation accuracy buff that stacks.  Against big bad guys it could make an immense difference.  Shieldbearers also have Deflection bonuses to allies.  Also if you don't like Flames of Devotion for tanks (me) and take Lay on Hands they have the Shielding Touch talent that gives your allies (before 2.0 you could also buff yourself with it not sure now.. on 2.0 as the tool tip specifically says allies....but it did before as well don't know) +8 deflection (on 1.6 it was + 10) while LoH is healing them.

 

Also like Raven said if you want better stats and do not want to take the Untroubled Faith talent (talents are scarce so I don't recommend it)  You could go either Goldpact Knights or Bleak Walkers as they do not have any penalties for being Cruel thus not incurring penalties to your defense (Faith and Conviction).  Lastly, Kind Wayfarers are probably the least desirable for a Paladin tank because one order talent is heal on kill (which as a tank you wont do much of)..the other requires you to take Flames of Devotion as tank but that's OK since you can use it as a on demand heal.  The issue with Sword and the Shepherd (the FoD heal) is that it scales terribly.  At high levels its just a rain drop in your Endurance pool...granted at low levels its really good.

 

Last thing I will say..other then the first mentioned order talents (and even the Shieldbearer ones are just average) most of the order talents are meh and not really worth tanking..no matter what Order you pick you can tank well with the correct stat distribution (even without one really lol even on PoTD) and talent choices.  I say choose the order whose favored actions you like to respond with...Personally I hate Passionate so Darcozzi and Wayfarers are usually out for me...and Darcozzi are the best lol.

 

My favorite are the Shieldbearers coming in first and Goldpact Knights in second (unique for a Paladin as you are a Merc!) for the RP.

[jsaving]

If I understand you guys correctly, Shieldbearer tanks are probably the best choice from a purely defensive point of view while a Darcozzi tank would sacrifice a modest amount of defense in exchange for somewhat better personal and party DPS, with Goldpact Knights a potentially entertaining alternative.  How do these differences hold up over the course of the game?  Would a Shieldbearer be noticeably less squishy than a Darcozzi toward the end of the game, and would the extra DPS from a Darcozzi tank (both directly from the flame shield and indirectly from the accuracy buff) be enough to compensate for that? 

[Raven Darkholme]

At the end of the game they are all the same.

[Torm51]

A Darcozzi would not be noticeably squishier given the same stats and gear they would 99.9% identical.  One of the Shieldbearer talents give deflection to ALLIES.  The other the Lay on Hands one that buffs you with deflection pre 2.0 you could use on yourself now I am not sure.  Given how important accuracy is and the fact that you can stack 2 Liberating Exhortations on and net a +20 accuracy to an ally or yourself its pretty game changing.  Darcozzi is the best.  with the rest being more or less the same but a Shieldbearer being slightly better at number 2 and I really mean slightly...If 2.0 changed the fact that Shielding Touch does not buff the paladin with deflection (the tool tip specifically says ALLIES) then there is literally no personal defense difference in any Paladin when it comes to order  talents.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Torm51

[Torm51]

At the end of the game they are all the same.

Except Darcozzi in my humble opinion.  A +20 accuracy buff to your mage or Cipher who is CCing the Master can mean the difference between starting your Trial of Iron run all over again.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

At the end of the game they are all the same.

Except Darcozzi in my humble opinion.  A +20 accuracy buff to your mage or Cipher who is CCing the Master can mean the difference between starting your Trial of Iron run all over again.

 

True, but his tankiness is the same.,

[Torm51]

Yep unless Shielding Touch works on yourself still after 2.0...then a Shield bearer for a minimum of 5 seconds will have 8 more deflection (If you take the talent)...could matter..could not...like I said Marginally better.

[Torm51]

Well maybe a Bleak Walker with The Black Path as he can Frighten enemies on kill. Thing is to build a great Paladin tank you will not be killing much of anything.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Torm51

[gkathellar]

Honestly, it doesn't matter much. All of the Order talents are skippable for a tankadin. Darcozzi and Shieldbearer are both options, but unless you're specifically interested in what they have to offer, neither is essential. 90% of a paladin's tanking power comes from the class itself.

[Torm51]

Honestly, it doesn't matter much. All of the Order talents are skippable for a tankadin. Darcozzi and Shieldbearer are both options, but unless you're specifically interested in what they have to offer, neither is essential. 90% of a paladin's tanking power comes from the class itself.

Ya we were just splitting hairs.  That is the bottom line.

[Gs11]

Weapon matters for  tankish palladin at all? I assume we work with 1-handed+shield, so stiletto  for 1 engagement or hatchet for deflection?

 

What's Your suggestions?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Gs11

[KDubya]

I like to go with big two handers for my Paladins, especially if I have a Paladin main as well as Pellagrina. I can start each fight with a reinforcing exhortation that each Paladin casts on the other for a big +25 deflection. That plus Faith and Conviction gives me good enough deflection combined with Zealous Endurance and heavy armor to shrug off what hits I do get.

 

Big two handers put out a nice burst with FoD. They also discourage disengagement since a free high accuracy hit with a two hander is going to hurt.

 

If I was going with a weapon and shield set up I'd look at Sabres - for the big damage - ,Flails - for the graze>hit -, War Hammers - for the crush/pierce - , or spears for the +accuracy.

 

Maces would be up there as well if not for the total garbage that is grouped with maces. If Maces were in a group with any halfway decent firearm, crossbow or bow they'd be a contender but implements look retarded on anyone but a Wizard. Why the Dev's felt the need to include three different implements and to bundle two in the same group as Maces I'll never know.

[Gs11]

Weapon matters for  tankish palladin at all? I assume we work with 1-handed+shield, so stiletto  for 1 engagement or hatchet for deflection?

 

What's Your suggestions?

 

I like to go with big two handers for my Paladins, especially if I have a Paladin main as well as Pellagrina. I can start each fight with a reinforcing exhortation that each Paladin casts on the other for a big +25 deflection. That plus Faith and Conviction gives me good enough deflection combined with Zealous Endurance and heavy armor to shrug off what hits I do get.

 

Big two handers put out a nice burst with FoD. They also discourage disengagement since a free high accuracy hit with a two hander is going to hurt.

 

If I was going with a weapon and shield set up I'd look at Sabres - for the big damage - ,Flails - for the graze>hit -, War Hammers - for the crush/pierce - , or spears for the +accuracy.

 

Maces would be up there as well if not for the total garbage that is grouped with maces. If Maces were in a group with any halfway decent firearm, crossbow or bow they'd be a contender but implements look retarded on anyone but a Wizard. Why the Dev's felt the need to include three different implements and to bundle two in the same group as Maces I'll never know.

I didn't precise my question about weapon for palladins before, I had in mind POTD difficulty.

 

How about  survivability for Palladin as main TANK, WITHOUT SHIELD and   no other  strictly tank in party squad  on POTD?

 

Beside palladins, I supposed  that every main(not off tank ofc) tank should have shield otherwise is hard perform on POTD?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Gs11

[KDubya]

 

Weapon matters for  tankish palladin at all? I assume we work with 1-handed+shield, so stiletto  for 1 engagement or hatchet for deflection?

 

What's Your suggestions?

 

I like to go with big two handers for my Paladins, especially if I have a Paladin main as well as Pellagrina. I can start each fight with a reinforcing exhortation that each Paladin casts on the other for a big +25 deflection. That plus Faith and Conviction gives me good enough deflection combined with Zealous Endurance and heavy armor to shrug off what hits I do get.

 

Big two handers put out a nice burst with FoD. They also discourage disengagement since a free high accuracy hit with a two hander is going to hurt.

 

If I was going with a weapon and shield set up I'd look at Sabres - for the big damage - ,Flails - for the graze>hit -, War Hammers - for the crush/pierce - , or spears for the +accuracy.

 

Maces would be up there as well if not for the total garbage that is grouped with maces. If Maces were in a group with any halfway decent firearm, crossbow or bow they'd be a contender but implements look retarded on anyone but a Wizard. Why the Dev's felt the need to include three different implements and to bundle two in the same group as Maces I'll never know.

I didn't precise my question about weapon for palladins before, I had in mind POTD difficulty.

 

How about  survivability for Palladin as main TANK, WITHOUT SHIELD and   no other  strictly tank in party squad  on POTD?

 

Beside palladins, I supposed  that every main(not off tank ofc) tank should have shield otherwise is hard perform on POTD?

 

 

I only play PotD after my first game on Hard back a few months ago. I also pretty much stick to the story companions instead of hired mercs.

 

My suggestions are based on PotD experience and from that experience I like big two handers on my frontline Paladins. Paladins have great defensive abilities so I augment their offensive use with talents and equipment. Likewise I like to make my Rogues 'tanky' and give them a reach weapon or a shield to help them survive in combat. In general I like a 'tanky' team.

 

What is your team for PotD? One guy out front with or without a shield will not hold the enemy. I like to have three or four frontline combatants up front. They might be Paladins, Rogues, Monks, or Chanters.

 

With my Juggernaut Monk (fists and plate) I had Zahua (TideFall and plate), Devil (Sabre and shield), Kana (axe and shield), Pellagrina (Strikes Hard and Pally shield) and Sagani (stormcaller). They went to White March at level nine, chose the upgraded difficulty option and cleared everything. No casters no priests, no problems.

 

My Kind Wayfarer (TideFall and plate) team has Zahua (fists and plate), Pellagrinna (Estocs and plate), Kana (Pikes and plate), Sagani (Hold the wall) and Grieving Mother (Quarterstaff and hunting bow). No one has a shield, but I do start off with the two paladins hitting the other with reinforcing exhortation for a +25 deflection buff.

 

In both games I have high DR and run the Paladin Zealous Endurance  for hit >graze conversion. I still get hit since my deflection is around 60 on the monks and around 100 on the Paladin team but with 20+ DR grazes do around minimum damage and that is easy enough to take for a long time. I also have high defenses to avoid CC or at least push it into the graze level.

[Oralaina]

Um.  A paladin (unless of the evil variety) would NEVER advocate sacrificing anyone to the blood pool.  Eww.

 

I favor St Elecga - fits my inherent need to play LG and matches the dispositions I usually wind up using - Rational and Benevolent.... um, can't remember what the other one is., not in game sorry!

[Ymarsakar]

The paladin is near unkillable if you have full plate, solid 80 plus deflection, and enough lay on hands to heal through spike/focus damage. Of course, you will run out of lay on hands and healing sooner or later.

 

People have two weapon slots, so they can always go for big sword, shield + warhammer on the paladin soldier build. It just doesn't leave room for a ranged weapon to focus fire dps at range.

 

The reason why the paladin's order doesn't matter all that much is because the special powers are talents. So it's not like a standard paladin like Pallegina is weaker because they lack an order abilities. It just makes her build different. Also, the flavors of various paladin order abilities favor some kind of playstyle over other playstyles. It's more role playish and modifies a playstyle just a tad. For example, the extra deflection on lay of hands is really good when helping medium or light armor party members not die, but you can take reinforcing exhortation for 25 deflection... it's not exactly equivalent, but it's still the equivalent of one talent.

 

As for the blood pool, I think that was a reference to some other game like PST. But it's not very well done compared to say... experimenting on live captives in your stronghold ala intro of BG2 or sacrificing prisoners to the blood pool for kicks and giggles. If one speaks of equal exchange, that isn't even close. How much would you have to get in game plot and loot equipment wise, to justify permanently killing off a companion npc? Maybe for a superb weapon. Maybe if a skaen priest gets a few per encounter special abilities...

Edited October 8, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Nobear]

With my Juggernaut Monk (fists and plate) I had Zahua (TideFall and plate), Devil (Sabre and shield), Kana (axe and shield), Pellagrina (Strikes Hard and Pally shield) and Sagani (stormcaller). They went to White March at level nine, chose the upgraded difficulty option and cleared everything. No casters no priests, no problems.

 

Wow, so what were bottlenecks like with (essentially) six melee? Or did you always try to kite enemies out of bottlenecks or something?

[Torm51]

Um.  A paladin (unless of the evil variety) would NEVER advocate sacrificing anyone to the blood pool.  Eww.

 

I favor St Elecga - fits my inherent need to play LG and matches the dispositions I usually wind up using - Rational and Benevolent.... um, can't remember what the other one is., not in game sorry!

St. Elcga's favored are Honest and Diplomatic..

[Oralaina]

 

Um.  A paladin (unless of the evil variety) would NEVER advocate sacrificing anyone to the blood pool.  Eww.

 

I favor St Elecga - fits my inherent need to play LG and matches the dispositions I usually wind up using - Rational and Benevolent.... um, can't remember what the other one is., not in game sorry!

St. Elcga's favored are Honest and Diplomatic..

 

 

Oh, right.  Came back to fix that after I looked again this morning.  You beat me to it.  I tend to use all four of those, sort of interchangeably.  Some quests seem to fit better with some dispositions than they do with others.

[Teioh_White]

Really none of the Pld Order talents are something I'd wish to spend one of our mere 7 talent points on. Not that they do useless things, but I'd rather have a perma +10 to one of my Pld's saves to make sure they laugh off CC, then be able to give one of my allies a temp buff to deflection or acc. So I'd just go with what whatever makes you feel the most spiffy when playing, as you will have to be picking certain dialogue choices.

 

For me, that's was Gold Pact. I would pick the Stoic, Rational, and Diplomatic choices if trying 'RP' anyways, and it goes along with that. It also lets me be Cruel, so I can sacrifice Durance annoying self for 10% more Health for my tank.

[Torm51]

Really none of the Pld Order talents are something I'd wish to spend one of our mere 7 talent points on. Not that they do useless things, but I'd rather have a perma +10 to one of my Pld's saves to make sure they laugh off CC, then be able to give one of my allies a temp buff to deflection or acc. So I'd just go with what whatever makes you feel the most spiffy when playing, as you will have to be picking certain dialogue choices.

 

For me, that's was Gold Pact. I would pick the Stoic, Rational, and Diplomatic choices if trying 'RP' anyways, and it goes along with that. It also lets me be Cruel, so I can sacrifice Durance annoying self for 10% more Health for my tank.

Except Darcozzi Inspiring Liberation

+10 accuracy and if you want +20 cause they stack Is always awesome especially on PoTD.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Torm51

[KDubya]

 

With my Juggernaut Monk (fists and plate) I had Zahua (TideFall and plate), Devil (Sabre and shield), Kana (axe and shield), Pellagrina (Strikes Hard and Pally shield) and Sagani (stormcaller). They went to White March at level nine, chose the upgraded difficulty option and cleared everything. No casters no priests, no problems.

 

Wow, so what were bottlenecks like with (essentially) six melee? Or did you always try to kite enemies out of bottlenecks or something?

 

 

 

At a doorway I'd try to stealth rush into the room. Kana, and Devil both had ranged weapons on switch so could do ranged if needed. Also both Monks had Flagellant's Path so after 3 wounds they could zip across the battlefield. Even when only one of the Monks could engage in the doorway it was perfect for Torment's Reach. The cone would hit a lot, and as fast and as hard hitting as it is it'd kill the crowd pretty quickly.

 

Sagani was the only real soft target and she was always way in the back. With Stormcaller once that lightning storm procs its game over for the bad guys.