Josh Sawyer confirms BG2-style weapon effects being added for White March including instant death effects

[gkathellar]

 

The fact that, for example, the Gauntlets of Accuracy can only be had through random loot is frustrating for me. If my build makes use of them, I'd rather cheat than to play without them.

Ive been interested to see how this was received by players. I greatly dislike random loot so I was wondering what people do to combat this. Do you save before every container and then open them, reloading and camping until the timer reaches the item you want?

I use the spreadsheet from this board to time my acquisitions so I can get what I want.

 

Random loot sucks.

[jsaving]

 

The fact that, for example, the Gauntlets of Accuracy can only be had through random loot is frustrating for me. If my build makes use of them, I'd rather cheat than to play without them.

Ive been interested to see how this was received by players. I greatly dislike random loot so I was wondering what people do to combat this. Do you save before every container and then open them, reloading and camping until the timer reaches the item you want?

 

Unique items should always be nonrandom -- either the highest priced item in a shop or else taken from the body of a powerful foe (I mean, if the item really is that good, doesn't it make sense that well-informed enemies would have previously found and equipped them?).  It makes no sense to throw 5% of players a special item that no one else is able to acquire no matter how skillfully they play the game. 

 

For everything else, random item generation is fine. 

[Madscientist]

When I play RPGs or adventures, story, atmoshere and interesting combat is more importand to me than difficult combat. Thats why I don´t play on POTD. It makes things more difficult, but the system stays the same. The only exception was IWD, but there you get twice EXP if you kill enemies or finish quests on the highest difficulty. But I never finished IWD because it is all combat and little story. Every time I started it, it got boring after some time.

 

POE is very good in story, characters and immersion. (though PST is still a bit better, I think). But combat is often boring because 90% of battles can be won with tank and spank. This is not a problem of the combat system, it is about encounter design. We need ambushes, enemies that attack from different sides or adds that appear during combat. I never saw an enemy chanter summon 2 ogres in front of my backrow mage. The fact that this makes combat more difficult does not disturb me. I have no problem with selecting a lower difficulty when a fight gets too hard.

 

D:OS has my favourite combat system because of 2 reasons

- My reaction speed is pathetic so I prefer turn based combat. I pause a lot in POE

-world interactivety: shoot a fire arrow at the oil barrel to blow them up. Make them wet and stunn them with lightning. teleport the enemy into a burning inferno.

I also like the fact that you can move or take almost every object in the game world. (you can find the key to a door under the carpet, no text needed to explain)

And you have huge maps with little loading screens (you can enter buildings without loading screen).

 

I like both games. I think the main difference is the fact that D:OS does not take itself serious while POE does.

My favourite joke is when we meet a man from our world in a prison cell. The man is shocked that he has been imprisoned by elementals and he wants to call his lawyer.

The player characters think he is insane because he is not used that everybody uses magic.

 

 . . . still waiting for the new torment

[Madscientist]

I never use the console in POE and I accept random loot as random.

There was exactly one time I used a console in a game. That was in BGT when the item stacking bug made the greater wolfwere immortal.

 

In the character build section I talked about making a fire barbarien tank who uses retaliate gear. I have never seen hiros mantle ( or the man who sells it). But I will not do anything about it except creating the requirements that the event may happen.

[Guest 4ward]

 

I see most people miss a certain thing about this.

 

It's optional. Don't use it if you think it will make game too easy or w/e.

Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings, not of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.

 

Excusing imbalances on the grounds that, "you don't have to use it if you don't want to," fundamentally misunderstands why imbalances are problematic: they make characters' abilities difficult to predict for both players and developers. Swinginess is no different. It takes the kind of predictability you want in a game, and punches it in the face.

 

 

for me it's more like 'Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings AND of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.'

 

On subsequent playthroughs in BG2, i could choose to adjust the difficulty in the game options and/or change my strategy and tactics, both things i do because i'm more familiar with the game. On my first playthrough i could kite more often or rest more often, but that's going to change on my subsequent playthroughs and i might decide that e.g. kiting in a particular battle or resting before isn't necessary. So i can do both things – changing the game settings / restricting myself – out of the same reason that i know the game better and also because then battles play out differently which adds to the replay value.

[Doppelschwert]

I don't see the problem with instakill weapons when they work as described - the chance is not particular high, they only work against some kind of enemy type and even then they only work if the enemies level is below yours. If you're overleveled it just speeds up killing the enemies, if you're at the level you are supposed to be for an area, then it still won't make the game a cakewalk since you can only thin out the smaller enemies anyway.

Of course, this rises and falls with the way experience is distributed over the course of the game, but the described implementation doesn't strike me as overly out of the bounds of PoE.

 

Btw, randomized unique loot should go die in a fire concerning PoE.

[Gfted1]

I don't see the problem with instakill weapons when they work as described - the chance is not particular high...

If it starts at 15%, I wonder what it tops out at?

[Doppelschwert]

Where did you read it would increase?

This is probably a unique weapon trait which won't grow, at least that's my understanding. 15% is about instakilling an enemy every 6 hits, which seems reasonable to me - in the time you need to make 6 hits, the enemy should probably be dead anyway, especially if it is lower level than you. If it turns out to be too powerful or someone uses it to cheeze through the game consistently, they still can change it in a later patch. Compare it to a critical hit which should instakill low level enemies as well.

[Gfted1]

Ah, I misunderstood this part: "when you bind it, it gets an additional power." to mean the percentage would increase. Now rereading it I see it will be a completely different power.

[limaxophobiacq]

Some significantly more powerfull on-hit effects probably need to be added to the game to give martial characters some way to compete with the stuff casters can throw per-encounter at higher levels.

 

I'm not actually a huge fan of  x% chance weapon effects being in the game.

 

I'd prefer pure on-hit effects that trigger on every attack and more powerfull on-crit (which is based on accuracy being higher than defences and so not really more random than a regular attack) effects only.

[gkathellar]

Some significantly more powerfull on-hit effects probably need to be added to the game to give martial characters some way to compete with the stuff casters can throw per-encounter at higher levels.

 

I'm not actually a huge fan of x% chance weapon effects being in the game.

 

I'd prefer pure on-hit effects that trigger on every attack and more powerfull on-crit (which is based on accuracy being higher than defences and so not really more random than a regular attack) effects only.

I agree, with the caveat that these types of things need to be class abilities, instead of/in addition to weapon powers. But then, everyone who takes inspiration from tabletop gaming knows that; Tome of Battle came out 9 years ago.

 

*looks sternly at Obsidian*

 

 

 

 

I see most people miss a certain thing about this.

 

It's optional. Don't use it if you think it will make game too easy or w/e.

Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings, not of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.

 

Excusing imbalances on the grounds that, "you don't have to use it if you don't want to," fundamentally misunderstands why imbalances are problematic: they make characters' abilities difficult to predict for both players and developers. Swinginess is no different. It takes the kind of predictability you want in a game, and punches it in the face.

for me it's more like 'Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings AND of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.'

On subsequent playthroughs in BG2, i could choose to adjust the difficulty in the game options and/or change my strategy and tactics, both things i do because i'm more familiar with the game. On my first playthrough i could kite more often or rest more often, but that's going to change on my subsequent playthroughs and i might decide that e.g. kiting in a particular battle or resting before isn't necessary. So i can do both things – changing the game settings / restricting myself – out of the same reason that i know the game better and also because then battles play out differently which adds to the replay value.

That's nice and all, but the game shouldn't be built around the expectation of it, nor should faults be dismissed on the count that some people play this way. Edited August 19, 2015 by gkathellar

[Madscientist]

After some thinking you convinced me that random items are bad for a game like POE.

This means it will have a lower replay value for me than other games.

I dislike building chars around a specific piece of equipment.

 

Some time ago I played BGT again but I stopped playing after some time because I was bored.

The game is very good. But I knew everything that will come. Something like:

In the next room I will meet a mage and two golems. A conversation will start but we will fight no matter what I say. The mage will drop a staff+3 and some scrolls and there is a hammer in that chest.

 

I have already finished POE. When I play now the biggest fun is to find and report bugs.

This has an element of surprise.

I am really a scientist and finding out something that nobody has ever known is my version of fun.

It feels good to help a good game become even better.

 

Nietsche said something like: Your heart will find no rest where it needs only to find and not to search.

[evilcat]

About loot random or not:

Why not both. )

There is some named loot which people care about, and it is nice knowing that always can go for that boss and it will drop epic warhammer.

It is good to know that there is warhammer with +1 engagement which could suit chanter tank.

Exeptional Staff is not epic loot, it is generic, something i could craft, so having the staff or similar armor is all fine, and doesnt matter.

And honestly i do not focus enought on loot to remember where drops generic stuff.

However, it would be very annoying if named loot was totally random. Since that would undermine building. I could have this idea of dual axe wielding dwarf fighter, but then... no good axes whole game! And loot from fallen enemies just fits better than weapons from Amazon.  

Edited August 19, 2015 by evilcat

[Infinitron]

I'd prefer pure on-hit effects that trigger on every attack and more powerfull on-crit (which is based on accuracy being higher than defences and so not really more random than a regular attack) effects only.

 

Another option is Serpent in the Staglands-style "once every N hits".

Edited August 19, 2015 by Infinitron

[Gary1986]

 

The fact that, for example, the Gauntlets of Accuracy can only be had through random loot is frustrating for me. If my build makes use of them, I'd rather cheat than to play without them.

Ive been interested to see how this was received by players. I greatly dislike random loot so I was wondering what people do to combat this. Do you save before every container and then open them, reloading and camping until the timer reaches the item you want?

 

 

 

Hate random loot. I use a spreadsheet some dude created on this forum that tells you what item you can get on what day.

[Ink Blot]

 

 

Hate random loot. I use a spreadsheet some dude created on this forum that tells you what item you can get on what day.

 

Good Gods, man, just console the item into your inventory (unless you're into achievements). It's way easier and far less time consuming.

[limaxophobiacq]

But thats CHEATING!

 

I too use the spreadsheet. Not for everything but there's usually 2-3 items I really want.

[limaxophobiacq]

 

Some significantly more powerfull on-hit effects probably need to be added to the game to give martial characters some way to compete with the stuff casters can throw per-encounter at higher levels.

 

I'm not actually a huge fan of x% chance weapon effects being in the game.

 

I'd prefer pure on-hit effects that trigger on every attack and more powerfull on-crit (which is based on accuracy being higher than defences and so not really more random than a regular attack) effects only.

I agree, with the caveat that these types of things need to be class abilities, instead of/in addition to weapon powers. But then, everyone who takes inspiration from tabletop gaming knows that; Tome of Battle came out 9 years ago.

 

 

That would probably be more sound, game-mechanically speaking, but aesthetically, and in homage to IE games, I prefer them to be weapon effects rather than, well.

Edited August 20, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Madscientist]

One more thing about soulbound equipment:

In single player RPGs I know exactly one good example for such a thing: Dakkons sword in PST.

There is a very good reason why only he can use it.

 

You can do whatever you want in a fantasy game, but you should give a good explanation for it (except "its magic" or "its fantasy").

Else we may have an alien invasion in a future expansion of POE.

 

Does anybody have an idea how this soulbound equipment works in the game world? At least there are souls in this world.

This is one more reason why I don´t like class specific equipment.

Whay can´t a barbarien wear a belt that boost a paladin aura? He will not benefit from wearing it, but maybe he likes it because it looks cool. And he wants to show the the other barbariens of his tribe that he has killed a powerful paladin.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Random loot is appropriate in a D:OS for the same reason it's appropriate in a Diablo or a Torchlight

 

Oh, this kind of random. What has the gaming industry been working on, while I was away? They had 15 years and all they did was creating conventions for copy/paste.

 

 

There is some named loot which people care about, and it is nice knowing that always can go for that boss and it will drop epic warhammer.

It is good to know that there is warhammer with +1 engagement which could suit chanter tank.

Exeptional Staff is not epic loot, it is generic, something i could craft, so having the staff or similar armor is all fine, and doesnt matter.

And honestly i do not focus enought on loot to remember where drops generic stuff.

However, it would be very annoying if named loot was totally random. Since that would undermine building. I could have this idea of dual axe wielding dwarf fighter, but then... no good axes whole game! And loot from fallen enemies just fits better than weapons from Amazon.

 

Why not both? Named loot could be a just little bit random. Kangaxx for example could randomly appear in one of four or five given tombs (They all look the same anyway) throughout the game. The Sword of Spider Killing, or whatever its name was could be found in this or that spider cave and so on. Everything would be less predictable, but there is still some control.

[Killyox]

 

I see most people miss a certain thing about this.

 

It's optional. Don't use it if you think it will make game too easy or w/e.

Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings, not of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.

 

Excusing imbalances on the grounds that, "you don't have to use it if you don't want to," fundamentally misunderstands why imbalances are problematic: they make characters' abilities difficult to predict for both players and developers. Swinginess is no different. It takes the kind of predictability you want in a game, and punches it in the face.

 

Except people are not equal. What one considers difficult another may consider too easy. How do you please then ?

 

Also self restricting is a good thing for many. Look at Dark Souls player base and Bloodborne. There have been naked-speed runs already :>

[gkathellar]

 

I'd prefer pure on-hit effects that trigger on every attack and more powerfull on-crit (which is based on accuracy being higher than defences and so not really more random than a regular attack) effects only.

 

Another option is Serpent in the Staglands-style "once every N hits".

 

Huh, that's a very cool system. How does it work out in practice?

 

 

 

I see most people miss a certain thing about this.

 

It's optional. Don't use it if you think it will make game too easy or w/e.

Difficulty should be a function of difficulty settings, not of self-restrictions that only players with extensive metagame knowledge know they should impose on themselves.

 

Excusing imbalances on the grounds that, "you don't have to use it if you don't want to," fundamentally misunderstands why imbalances are problematic: they make characters' abilities difficult to predict for both players and developers. Swinginess is no different. It takes the kind of predictability you want in a game, and punches it in the face.

Except people are not equal. What one considers difficult another may consider too easy. How do you please then ?

 

Also self restricting is a good thing for many. Look at Dark Souls player base and Bloodborne. There have been naked-speed runs already :>

 

Extreme hardcore players are going to create every-greater challenges for themselves regardless of the effort you put into accommodating them - and accommodating them is mostly a function of Steam achievements.

 

For the greater majority of players, however, it's important that only the things labeled "difficulty" increase or decrease difficulty. It's one thing to have an unbalanced game - it's another, worse thing to have an unbalanced game that pretends to be balanced, and presents choices of intrinsically greater or lesser value as if they are comparable to one another.

[ShadowStorm]

I don´t like this.

 

About soulbound weapons:

The first time I encountered soulbound weapons was in world of warcraft. A new troll entered the game world, beats some enemies and suddenly one of them drops a green axe. he looks at it, the stats look good and he wats to equip it. A message pops up: "This item will be bound to your soul if you equip it". The young troll was shocked, sold it to the next shop and continued with junk equipment.

Later I understood what it means. It should prevent that very good players kill the hardest boss at that time and sell the gear to everyone who can afford it. WoW is extremely gear dependent. Players should earn their equipment themselves. Also players should have less motivation to buy game money with real money.

All of these points are useless in POE because it is a single player game.

 

About class specific weapons:

in BG2 they where completely overpowered.

Holy Avenger (paladin only greatsword+5, 50% spell resistance, dispell magic on hit)

Staff of the Magi (mage only staff+5, lots of spells that recharge on rest, dispell magic on hit, you become permanently invisible unless you do a hostile action. Selecting the staff makes you invisible again infinite times)

You had to beat powerful enemies to get them and it was not required to finish the game. but Once you had them you will never equip anything else (except a ranged weapon with infinite ammo and other special abilities). If you do not know the game and you start to play a paladin who spends his points to fight with axes, you feel that the game punished you for your choice, even though you could not know this before.

There is one more very importand thing: POE was designed with the concept that every char can use every equipment. A Mage in plate armor and a greatsword? You can do it. So you play as warrior mage but suddenly the game gives you the staff of the Magi. How do you feel?

 

About slaying items:

The mace of disruption was extremely powerful. It was the only thing that allowed me to kill Kangax. Equip this weapon on somebody, cast pretection from undead on him, and he can kill an entire army alone.

The wave killed every fire elemental on hit.

In ToB you can find a great sword that has a 10% chance of killing any enemy (except bosses) on hit.

Those weapons are complete game breaking.

 

summary:

- I think it is Ok if you have weapons that are more effective against a certain type of enemy or that cause a status effect on hit. But slaying weapons are too powerful.

- POE wasbuild around the concept that everybody can equip everything. Thats why I think that soulbound weapons and class specific weapons are bad. I don´t like the class specific items that already exist in this game too.

BG2 was a complete powertrip fantasty popamole... from an AD&D perspective. Holy Avenger in a game? With Staff of the Magi?? These were iconic weapons from the sourcebooks, completely overpowered yes and completely disruptive as any DM would quickly find out if he gave his players one. 

 

BG2 and the silly ToB were just about breaking the game and throwing in EPIC LOOT. A lot of people seem to love that (according to internets) but I certainly don't. Baldur's Gate ended at the conclusion of BG1 for me. 

[Madscientist]

@shadowStorm: I completely agree with you.

In BG1 you start with normal (non magic) equipment and when you can finally find or afford your first longsword+1 or a normal full plate armor you feel much stronger.

But most enemies can still kill you with 2 hits

 

BG2 throws tons of epic stuff at you, even in the starting dungeon (looking at you chaos sword+2, but also some others)

 

I never finished IWD ( or started IWD2 although I own it) because this dungeon crawling with little story became boring very fast.

I finished ToB once. Every time I tried to finish it later became boring and I stopped it. ToB is worse than IWD. ToB is just one epic dungeon after the other. But it is very easy because the game trows epic loot at you like there is no tomorrow. If you get flooded with epic stuff then epic = boring

[KDubya]

 

I don´t like this.

 

About soulbound weapons:

The first time I encountered soulbound weapons was in world of warcraft. A new troll entered the game world, beats some enemies and suddenly one of them drops a green axe. he looks at it, the stats look good and he wats to equip it. A message pops up: "This item will be bound to your soul if you equip it". The young troll was shocked, sold it to the next shop and continued with junk equipment.

Later I understood what it means. It should prevent that very good players kill the hardest boss at that time and sell the gear to everyone who can afford it. WoW is extremely gear dependent. Players should earn their equipment themselves. Also players should have less motivation to buy game money with real money.

All of these points are useless in POE because it is a single player game.

 

About class specific weapons:

in BG2 they where completely overpowered.

Holy Avenger (paladin only greatsword+5, 50% spell resistance, dispell magic on hit)

Staff of the Magi (mage only staff+5, lots of spells that recharge on rest, dispell magic on hit, you become permanently invisible unless you do a hostile action. Selecting the staff makes you invisible again infinite times)

You had to beat powerful enemies to get them and it was not required to finish the game. but Once you had them you will never equip anything else (except a ranged weapon with infinite ammo and other special abilities). If you do not know the game and you start to play a paladin who spends his points to fight with axes, you feel that the game punished you for your choice, even though you could not know this before.

There is one more very importand thing: POE was designed with the concept that every char can use every equipment. A Mage in plate armor and a greatsword? You can do it. So you play as warrior mage but suddenly the game gives you the staff of the Magi. How do you feel?

 

About slaying items:

The mace of disruption was extremely powerful. It was the only thing that allowed me to kill Kangax. Equip this weapon on somebody, cast pretection from undead on him, and he can kill an entire army alone.

The wave killed every fire elemental on hit.

In ToB you can find a great sword that has a 10% chance of killing any enemy (except bosses) on hit.

Those weapons are complete game breaking.

 

summary:

- I think it is Ok if you have weapons that are more effective against a certain type of enemy or that cause a status effect on hit. But slaying weapons are too powerful.

- POE wasbuild around the concept that everybody can equip everything. Thats why I think that soulbound weapons and class specific weapons are bad. I don´t like the class specific items that already exist in this game too.

BG2 was a complete powertrip fantasty popamole... from an AD&D perspective. Holy Avenger in a game? With Staff of the Magi?? These were iconic weapons from the sourcebooks, completely overpowered yes and completely disruptive as any DM would quickly find out if he gave his players one. 

 

BG2 and the silly ToB were just about breaking the game and throwing in EPIC LOOT. A lot of people seem to love that (according to internets) but I certainly don't. Baldur's Gate ended at the conclusion of BG1 for me. 

 

 

 

@shadowStorm: I completely agree with you.

In BG1 you start with normal (non magic) equipment and when you can finally find or afford your first longsword+1 or a normal full plate armor you feel much stronger.

But most enemies can still kill you with 2 hits

 

BG2 throws tons of epic stuff at you, even in the starting dungeon (looking at you chaos sword+2, but also some others)

 

I never finished IWD ( or started IWD2 although I own it) because this dungeon crawling with little story became boring very fast.

I finished ToB once. Every time I tried to finish it later became boring and I stopped it. ToB is worse than IWD. ToB is just one epic dungeon after the other. But it is very easy because the game trows epic loot at you like there is no tomorrow. If you get flooded with epic stuff then epic = boring

 

 

You guys need to re-do BG1 and BG2 with some mods like BG Tutu, SCS I and II, and a few others. They allow you to choose how to rebalance various overpowered items and abilities to tone down your own power while making the enemy competent and a challenge. You will find a new definition for annoyed and humiliated if you set it for full pre-buffing, TOB abilities for enemies and go into the planar sphere to face Tolgerius (sp?) the Cowled Wizard. You will learn to fear high level mages and liches. Unlike in the vanilla game you'll need a lot more than a few breach spells to get through the multi-layered defenses of a mage.