Offensive Fghter

[evilcat]

So there is a big nerf to Defender Fighter coming, but it is not topic about it.

Lets asume that devs want to push Fighters to be more than meatshields, and be usefull in combat.

However, there is little builds of DPS fighters, and i hardly see reason to build one, since for bruiser there is Barbarian and Mon, for DPS Rogue, for utylity Paladin/Chanter. And if we want it all there is always Druid/Cipher/Wizard.

Being tought is nice, but dosnt help much if you dont do much.

So far the best things to say about Fighters is that hey offer "blunt and passive gameplay" (quote), and they always "can pick neutral talents and learn Lore skill" (also quote).

 

 

So the question is: what need to happen to DPS Fighter be a viable party member?

What new items, abilities, talents should aprear?

Which existing talents, abilities need to be changed?

 

Of course there is a big challenge how to even balance with 4 time per encounter slicken bunch of enemies prone. But the hope is that fighters could combine some tactical debuffs, and normal attack dmg in one ability, and have it avaiable 2 times per encounter.

 

Existing talents/abilities:

Disciplined Barrage - Is just soo weak. Accuracy is not big problem for FIghters, and if is, there is more than enought ways to buff accuracy or debuff enemies deflection, all this in longer duracion and as aoe.  Could be +20 Acc, +30% attack speed, 20 sec, 1/encounter.  It is barrage after all.

 

New talents, abilities:

Shatter - Powerful Strike which tears enemy armor into pieces. Reduce DT for -10 for 30 sec. 2/encounter. Also deals normal dmg.

Pommel Strike - You forgot to stick them with pointy end, but they are stunned now so its ok. Normal attack.Stuns for 10 sec, 2/encounter.

Under the plate - Fighter is master of armors and knows every weakness. Gain passive 3 DT reduction with all attacks.

Higher Ground - What falls down shall never raise again. Against prone targets fighter gets +50% dmg bonus. Passive. For synergy with knock out, and also some weapons, and other classes. Synergy builds are fun.

Shake it Off - Could be used always as long as fighter is alive. Instantly ends all negative status. Like stuns, paralyze, blidness. 2/encounter.

 

Neutral Talents (all classes)

Weapon Precision: WeaponType - You learn how to use your favorite weapon type in most deadly way.  Gan +0,25 critical multiplier in your favorite weapon type. That could be better as neutral talent since we can't exacly say that critcals fit better fighters than barbarians, or rogues, or rangers.

 

End there could be much more. Much more is needed. So this topic is often for other suggestions.

 

Some may look like overpowered from level 1 perspective, but in comparison to end game caster it is just what needs to be done to bring some fun, and at least click something.

 

EDIT:

Disciplined Barrage is more widely viewed as lucklaster.

There is more need for offensive Fighter class abilities than talents, since as talents you can always pick neutrals, and for abilities you do not have choice.

Edited August 18, 2015 by evilcat

[gkathellar]

Offensive fighters work fine. Honestly, they work better than a lot of other classes on the front line, if only because Constant Recovery makes them so low-maintenance. They're boring, but they can stand there and dish out damage without problems.

 

To be clear, I despise the Defender nerf. But everyone who behaves as though fighters have lost their only niche - or even their best one - doesn't know what they're talking about. Even a suboptimal attribute setup like Eder's can perform well with the abundance of damage-boosters that fighters have, and Constant Recovery means ridiculous defenses are often wasted on a fighter.

 

Here's your basic fire-and-forget fighter build: Take a two-handed weapon or double sabers. Take relevant weapon talents, weapon style, savage attack. Take percentage boosters wherever possible, including the defensive ones where it makes sense (except for Disciplined Barrage, since Knockdown is still better for an offtank). That'll put you through PotD easily.

[Kilburn]

If the defender nerf goes through as is, offensive fighter will be the most viable fighter build.

[Raven Darkholme]

If weapon grandmastery would actually give 4 more accuracy offensive dual wield fighters would be very viable.

[KDubya]

Confident Aim is better than you think it is.

 

If accuracy = deflection then you will get 35% graze. Confident Aim changes 20% of those grazes to hits. This is 0.2 x 0.35 = .07 or 7%. A hit does full damage while a graze does 50% so 7% more hits = +3.5% damage.

 

20% increased minimum damage gets you +10% average damage

 

Together the two effects get you +13.5% damage which is not a bad ability and it works with any type of weapon. Not sure if it works with scrolls via lore, if so the graze to hit would benefit CC type effects like paralyze.

 

Currently the problem with Confident Aim is that it is available at level 3 when Defender is also available. Defender + Wary Defender is a very nice defensive boost that is really good even for a fighter set up to do damage. If Defender is changed in 2.0 such that it is no longer an auto pick, then Confident Aim will see a lot more utility.

 

If you go with something like this:

 

The Nutcracker

 

Boreal Dwarf Fighter White that Wends (+1 Per)

Might - 20 - more damage and more passive regen

Dex - 10 - higher would be nice but run out of points

Con - 10 - new malus makes dumping more painful

Per - 18 - more accuracy, good interrupts as well

Int - 3 - no duration based abilities and something has to be dumped

Res - 17 - offsets the will save malus of dumping intellect plus gets you deflection, concentration and dialogue

 

1 Knockdown - twice per encounter for 3.3 sec due to low intellect, or go with disciplined barrage for +10 accuracy for 9.8 seconds

2 Weapon Focus - +6 accuracy with weapon group of choice

3 Confident Aim - equivalent to +13.5% damage boost

4 Vulnerable Attack - +5 DR penetration modal for tough foes

5 Weapon Spec - +15% damage for weapon group of choice

6 Savage Attack - +20% melee damage modal

7 Armored Grace - +16% action speed due to reduced armor penalty

8 Weapon mastery - +10% damage with weapon group of choice

9 Critical Defense - converts some crits to hits and some hits to graze, you will get hit so this will make it hurt less, helps with spell effects as well

10 Two handed weapon style - +15% damage with two handed weapons Can swap with sword and shield style for a more defensive focus while still keeping high damage.

11 Unbroken - per encounter self rez

12 Whatever - interrupting blow to maximize interrupts, envenomed strike to make use of the high might and accuracy, passive deflection boost, another weapon slot.

 

All together you get +30% might, +15 spec, +20 savage, +10 mastery, +15 two handed for +90% damage boost for two handed weapons, +55% for ranged weapons  in your weapon group and +75% damage when going with weapon and shield for increased deflection.

 

You'll have very high accuracy and do single target damage better than anyone except for a rogue with status effects combined with heavy armor that affects you 16% less than anyone else, a crit>hit and hit >crit passive defense and a per encounter self rez if all else fails.

 

You are a nutcracker, a heavily armored golem of death

Edited August 17, 2015 by KDubya

[AndreaColombo]

My DPS Fighter build:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80748-buildpreview-lady-of-pain/

 

It's my favorite character to play (but relies on the presence of a support priest for maximum efficacy.)

[Elric Galad]

No, sorry, I don't believe in DPS fighter as they currently are. Sure they can work and extremely specific build like lady of pain could exist, but "normal fighter" is just not enough.

 

They have +25% damage from mastery, about +10% from armoured grace (wich affects only recovery) and +10-15% from confident aim.

All this is cool but never come close from barbarian or rogue level of damage.

 

Worse, this does not come close from monk who also has defenses equal to the (nerfed) fighter.

 

An armoured cipher casting tactical meld before fights will also out DPS fighter while providing support and/or further self buff.

 

It is not that fighters are bad, it is that other classes are better AND more interesting.

 

The few advantages the fighter has are not enough to justify their presence in a party after defender nerf.

Being low maintenance is now enough when powergaming (powergaming being the point of class balance)

 

 

If they were buffed, it would be possible.IMO the problem is that they don t really have a "style". They should be "tactical warriors" or "reliable against strong ennemies", not just plain DPS. At least "invincible tanks holding the line" was a style.

 

Currently fighters are more or less strong pets.

And as pets are getting buffed, I'd rather take a bear.

[Doppelschwert]

 (powergaming being the point of class balance)

 

Slow down and speak for yourself there. The lead designer of the game thinks this about the point of class balance:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70501-best-talents/page-2

 

 

If a tactic is clearly an unintended exploit or a Talent is such an obvious choice that taking anything else is pointless, of course I'm going to tune it down.  If we balance the game ignoring "no duh" options, then anyone who takes that path will find the game to be significantly less challenging.  If we balance the game assuming everyone is taking relatively overpowered options, it narrows the range of viable character concepts considerably.

 

This means that if a class has an option which is strictly better than other options (for the same class), it will be tuned down. Comparing defender to cautious attack, that was the case and it got nerfed. Got it nerfed too much? Probably, but some nerf was required to meet the self imposed design goal of the devs.

 

 

Perfect balance has never been a goal in PoE, but if something really sticks out like a sore thumb (insanely good, really bad) I will try to address it.  When F:NV first launched, all sniper rifles still had the x5 crit chance multiplier on them that they had in F3.  Practically speaking, it meant that you may as well use a sniper rifle in virtually all circumstances because even in an open firefight you could score crits with extremely high frequency.  The only real issue was .308 availability, which wasn't much of a problem at all.  I removed the x5 crit chance multiplier in the first patch and people complained about it, but the sniper rifles were still incredibly good as sniper rifles (i.e., at long range, especially from stealth).  Importantly, it didn't stop people from using sniper rifles at all because they were still very powerful, but in open firefights or at close range, they were more likely to switch to other weapons that worked better in those circumstances.

 

That means that balancing of this game is not concerned with powergaming primarily, which some people seem to have trouble understanding on these boards. On one hand, some people argue this is a single player game so nerfing shouldn't be considered as no balance is needed, but on the other hand, people want the fighter to be buffed because apparently balance is a thing in single player games anyway.

 

The point is, there will always be a least interesting and/or weakest option to play with. But because this is a single player game, this is ok. This is not an MMORPG where you are punished for picking the wrong class 80 levels and 6 months ago and now you can't change it anymore. You will always be able to make it through PoE with your characters when you know what you are doing. I could create a party of only fighters and play through PotD if I wanted to, defender nerf or not. That's not to say that the nerfing or buffing can't get on levels where its entirely ridicioulous, but I doubt that level is reached with the fighter at this point as several people pointed out that fighters are excellent off tanks still.

 

The fighter is clearly intended for people that like low maintaince. Given that, you can't make his potential as big as any maintaince heavy character, because why would you want to play the active character then when it is so much more work. A fighter is reliable and surely better than a badly played caster, so the tradeoff is low maintaince for blandness. That may be hard for powergamers to understand but there are people that will readily sacrifice power for a more relaxed way to play. I'm not arguing for or agains the fighter being balanced at the moment, but this seems to be a concept that is hard to understand somehow.

 

The design goal of PoE is that you can come up with any character concept and succesfully play it through the game, which you can and still will be able to do after 2.0. If you feel fighters don't reach your powergaming level, then, well, don't play a fighter. There are still a lot of other people which will pick the fighter nonetheless.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Doppelschwert

[evilcat]

Trading "low cost" for effectivness is also balancing. You just claim that low cost is an advantage.

Saying that there are classes for beginners and for experienced is very twisted logic, since that would mean that any of these group have only access to 6 classes. Can i also get the info which other class is also "low maintainence"? Probably not.

Also for difficulty purpose there are difficulty levels, and there could be more difficulty specs. 

So if someone playes "bad" wizard can just tune down difficulty. Ufortunetly you cant switch difficulty up to get this high maintainence Fighter.

 

As long as there is no devs comments "Yes we think of fighters as tutorial class" You can;t say what is intended.

 

Playing active character is prize itself. Some people just like clicking. Or play activly. It gives illusion of skills, like when you check enemy DT and use right spell, or place right defense  CC on top of bunch of enemies, or summon behind enemy lines for antipatic field, or kite behind the corner. Feels good.

 

Active and responsive is a important source of fun in video games.

 

Everyone is "powergaming". If want big warrior with even bigger sword for body block and dps will try Barbarian and Fighter, then pick what suits better that style.

 

Presented builds have in common that they are more generic talents than class talents, abilities. Every class can pick: Weapon Focus, Vulnerable Attack, Savage Attack, Two Weapon Style, extra weapon slot. As well as everyone can pick good weapon, and use scrolls, or get 20 M.

 

Also why there couldnt be option to pick something else in place of critical defense or unbroken? Why Accuracy Barrage is not on list of good offensive fighter abilities? Why Weapon Mastery is worse than Two Handed Style? If someone has Priest in party and some CC monkey Critical Defense and Unbroken could be skip. I would happy skip that for that Shatter Armor talent or useful Barrage.

Edited August 18, 2015 by evilcat

[Lord_Mord]

I noticed, that everyone uses Eder as a tank. I dont know why. I boosted his accuracy and gave him two enchanted sabers. I use knockdown very often and this other thing that pushes enemies away. Usually that is more than enough to guarantee a quick but fun fight.

[evilcat]

I noticed, that everyone uses Eder as a tank. I dont know why. I boosted his accuracy and gave him two enchanted sabers. I use knockdown very often and this other thing that pushes enemies away. Usually that is more than enough to guarantee a quick but fun fight.

Not everyone. I switched for Pellegia. Since Eder had too much survivability for my taste, and i want to switch for that outside effects of Paladin.

Also if you dont play a defender yourself when you first meet him, good front line is what you need (with Aloth and some dps PC) so tank is most logical option.

There was no companion respec so far.

And for Eder that high Might and lack of resolve is pushing to more dps character.

That is side note, unrelated with general fighter utility.

Edited August 18, 2015 by evilcat

[Quantics]

My DPS Fighter build:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80748-buildpreview-lady-of-pain/

 

It's my favorite character to play (but relies on the presence of a support priest for maximum efficacy.)

Looks good actually ! I'll probably use it for my next play through.

[Killyox]

Offensive fighters work really well tbh.

 

Have Lore 6-8, Might*, Dex, Int**. Two Weapons Style, Passive 20% grazes to hits min dmg +20%, Armored Grace, +2 weapons that have graze-to-hit. Then specialize in weapons you wish to use. take Savage Attack modal +bloodbath (is that the english name?). 

 

With that you have very strong single target and high deflection is not a problem due to graze-to-hit conversion. For AoE, Buffs, Attacks and so on you have scrolls.

 

 

*warriors can actually deal very good dmg without might at all due to their skills having flat modifiers but it's still useful for scroll usage.

**scrolls AoE size, buff/debuff duration

 

In Path of the Damned graze-to-hit matters:P

Edited August 18, 2015 by Killyox

[Elric Galad]

I was probably a bit excessive when I said powergaming is the point of balance.

 

Balance is not so critical in a solo game and is conceptually different when applied to a party rather than 1 single character.

 

I don't expect balance in PoE to make all character equal.

 

I expect each class to have a combination of key roles in party, that no other class can combine stricly better.

 

Basicslly, I hate having a class mechanically inferior to others for all the roles it can fullfill.

 

I really feel that fighter could be strictly worse than monk at tank+single target DPS role...

 

By the way, I love confident aim because it is good against ennemies with high defenses. I don't think other class have something like this (except maybe rangers stacking accuracy).