Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[limaxophobiacq]

+2 engagement limit, -5 deflection

 

+5 to defenses other than deflection with Wary Defender.

 

Sure before it was an absoule no-brainer (and maybe slightly to strong compared to paladin & chanter tanking abilties) to get it + Wary Defender and have them on all the time, but this nerf is just way over the top and I can't see anyone using it now.

 

This is -20 deflection on a fighter with defender and the upgrade compared to pre-2.0.

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[gkathellar]

I found Defender entirely skippable already on an offtank fighter. But yeah, this seals the deal. Defender + Wary Defender was the entire way that fighters could keep up with paladins using Cautious Attack on defenses.

 

clearly this means they should nerf Faith & Conviction, amirite

[rkade8583]

Yeah, I didn't notice that until it was too late. I certainly hope they rebalance it a little before release as it doesn't even seem worth taking on my main if he's just going to get hit more.

[Gary1986]

Hopefully they will change it back

Edited August 8, 2015 by Gary1986

[limaxophobiacq]

Giving a deflection penalty on a defensive ability is just baffling. I think it could see a bit of a nerf from 1.06, in part because with Wary Defender it made Vigorous Defense kind of useless since they didn't stack (another solution would obviously be letting them stack), but this is way to much, and even if it wasn't as harsh fighters would need other abilities improved to compensate because the thing is without the old Defender & Wary Defender, Fighters really dont have much going for them as tanks over Paladins or Chanters, while those two have AoE buffs and active abilities fighters lack.

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[evilcat]

I would rather see something like:

Defender: +2 engaded , -20% AS (can't stack with other stances, but can with short term effects like vigorius defense)

Wary Defender:  +5 to all defenses when Defender.

That would make more sense. Worse than now, but still good.

 

With stats from OP people will figure out some way with Hold the Line and Cautions Attacks. Mix it with Priest with high resolve and serve and as punch bag + provice some nice buffs.

Generally nerfing fighters will not make Paladins or Chanters better, just will encourage caster tanking, caster dps, caster everything.

Futher more mixing Engaded bonus and deflection malus is not good design. Maybe for Mons it will be ok (they like being hit), but not fighers.

 

From one side i understand the resoning of the change. That with just 1 ability + 1 talent we have similar effect to literally 6 neutral talents (in fact still better). But some of this talents are rather bad ;-)

 

From the other side i do not see what exacly planned change will improve and how it will make my gameplay better.

Fighters are no1 in tanking? I used Pellegria just since it was funnier (on hard). Others are using chanters since its more effective, and there is even more options i suppose.

Fighters are better than Paladins and Chanters?

Chanters are weak since they have no class talents to improve chanting or encourage some gameplay, and their chants /invocations are unimpressive, and they can invocate after 12 sec at best which is a bit late. And stacking 2 low level chants is like 1 spell from caster.

Paladins are weak since NPC Paladins do not benefit from conviction (seriously something could be done about it, at least for Pellegina). Other than that Paladins are not extra weak. Every issue of Paladins could be solved with changing numbers of current class abilities/talents. Adding more abilities/talent.

Possibly there could be more weapons with +1 engagements, so you could have decent 3 without defender.

 

Game is already in the state when i ended with 4 casters and 2 martials since martials does not bring much. Pushing it more is not good, since there are only 4 casters classes and repeating classes is a bit boring.

Edited August 8, 2015 by evilcat

[View619]

The devs could just keep current Defender and make the upgrade give +5 to all defenses. I can understand the reasoning behind switching Deflection to Accuracy on the base talent, but they seem to be reaching with the upgrade. I believe the previous upgrade was + 10 deflection?

[View619]

The devs could just keep current Defender and make the upgrade give +5 to all defenses. I can understand the reasoning behind switching Deflection to Accuracy on the base talent, but they seem to be reaching with the upgrade. Just allow it to negate the deflection cost of the base skill, instead of pushing fighter deflection totals even higher.

[Gary1986]

Giving a deflection penalty on a defensive ability is just baffling. I think it could see a bit of a nerf from 1.06, in part because with Wary Defender it made Vigorous Defense kind of useless since they didn't stack (another solution would obviously be letting them stack), but this is way to much, and even if it wasn't as harsh fighters would need other abilities improved to compensate because the thing is without the old Defender & Wary Defender, Fighters really dont have much going for them as tanks over Paladins or Chanters, while those two have AoE buffs and active abilities fighters lack.

 

Does Vigorous Defence not stack with Defender+Wary Defender? Does Vigorous Defence stack with Cautious Attack?

[Njall]

Or they could keep it as it was, considering that the expansion  is giving out constant recovery as a multi-class talent and that's going to make the other classes significantly more survivable, and that fighters have little going for them aside from survability. 

[rkade8583]

It kills me that fighters can't tank as well as paladins seeing as fighters were seemingly made to be THE tanks (unless I'm mistaken.)

[evilcat]

It kills me that fighters can't tank as well as paladins seeing as fighters were seemingly made to be THE tanks (unless I'm mistaken.)

It dosnt matter what Fighters are supposed to be. And its better if single class could be specialized in many ways.

Someone complained about fighter tank >paladin tank, so they nerfed fighters. Each nerf to fighter/paladin is one step more to glorious priest/druid tanks.

 

And in theory Fighters could be Offtank dps (dps which not break when hit). There is several talents/abilities allowing to rapidly regain health, or come back from dead, or wear heavy armor and still hit faster.

[gkathellar]

 

It kills me that fighters can't tank as well as paladins seeing as fighters were seemingly made to be THE tanks (unless I'm mistaken.)

It dosnt matter what Fighters are supposed to be. And its better if single class could be specialized in many ways.

Someone complained about fighter tank >paladin tank, so they nerfed fighters. Each nerf to fighter/paladin is one step more to glorious priest/druid tanks.

 

And in theory Fighters could be Offtank dps (dps which not break when hit). There is several talents/abilities allowing to rapidly regain health, or come back from dead, or wear heavy armor and still hit faster.

 

They already perform best in this regard. They have a bunch of damage boosters and they regenerate. If you're not using them to hit hard, you might as well just use a paladin instead.

[Fardragon]

I think this is all part of a general attempt to make Constitution matter by nerfing Deflection across the board.

[Njall]

I think this is all part of a general attempt to make Constitution matter by nerfing Deflection across the board.

 

They are also nerfing deflection across the board, for example cautious attack is now +8 def instead of +10, and the ring of deflection is now +9 deflection instead of +10. Those are slight, sensible nerfs.

This is a -20 deflection nerf to the fighter's main tanking stance (and a -5 to all their other defenses ) on top of the other nerfs.  

[Valorian]

Hello, shields calling.   They're the highest source of deflection. Fine/exceptional/superb could, for example, reduce the accuracy penalty instead of further increasing deflection to ridiculous levels.

 

Moreover it's too easy to amass DR early on, which also contributes to the impenetrability of dedicated tanks.

 

 

If their goal is to bring (defense oriented) classes into line when it comes to tanking power, it's odd that they didn't strike paladins with the nerf-stick as well.

[Tomice]

It almost seems that they want to keep us from creating pure tanks anymore.

Which might be a good thing, I never felt so inclined to create characters without any offensive ability in BG oder Dragon Age Origins.

[Njall]

It almost seems that they want to keep us from creating pure tanks anymore.

Which might be a good thing, I never felt so inclined to create characters without any offensive ability in BG oder Dragon Age Origins.

 

Then they should nerf shields instead, they're the biggest source of deflection and the biggest loss of DPS.

[evilcat]

It almost seems that they want to keep us from creating pure tanks anymore.

Which might be a good thing, I never felt so inclined to create characters without any offensive ability in BG oder Dragon Age Origins.

The problem is that devs are wasting resources on something which is not a problem.

Fighter's Defender was a problem? Have i miss a memo?

Not sure what was purpose of the change, but the result will be: Fighters will be skipped from part outside RP reasons. There will be more place for monk or Barbarian.

Maybe that is the idea, they are planning new Monk and Barbarian companions, and want Eder to pass into shadow to let new stars shine. ;-)

And the final result will be setting on full caster party just as easiest way to play.

 

More interesting aproach would be releasing set of abilities/talents for fighter improving crits (chance/multiplier) for weapon group. So if someone want dps fighter here comes more tools for that. Even better ability for crit chance and talent for crit multi (as upgrade to said ability for said weapon group).

Edited August 9, 2015 by evilcat

[Nakia]

 

It almost seems that they want to keep us from creating pure tanks anymore.

Which might be a good thing, I never felt so inclined to create characters without any offensive ability in BG oder Dragon Age Origins.

The problem is that devs are wasting resources on something which is not a problem.

Fighter's Defender was a problem? Have i miss a memo?

Not sure what was purpose of the change, but the result will be: Fighters will be skipped from part outside RP reasons. There will be more place for monk or Barbarian.

Maybe that is the idea, they are planning new Monk and Barbarian companions, and want Eder to pass into shadow to let new stars shine. ;-)

And the final result will be setting on full caster party just as easiest way to play.

 

If that is their aim that is sad.   I know there is no way the devs can make everyone happy but this rebalancing could well make a lot of people unhappy.  I am not interested in playing a full caster party.   I like being able to choose who and what I want to play.  Are they, the devs, trying to star the new monk character from the expansion?  He will never replace Eder in my heart.  

[evilcat]

There is also option that defender nerf is red herring. Every major patch or expansion will have some bugs or imprefections, so it is easy to add some unnnecessery change for players to beach about, forgiving all other imprefections. Then the nerf could be tuned down, and everyone will feel better. That brings crowd control to new level. ;-)

[Ark Evensong]

With the improved enemy AI, perhaps they believe the +2 engagement limit to be a lot more useful/powerful now?
That would deserve a nerf for the side-benefits. Still sounds a little far ...

[Njall]

With the improved enemy AI, perhaps they believe the +2 engagement limit to be a lot more useful/powerful now?

That would deserve a nerf for the side-benefits. Still sounds a little far ...

 

Well, aside from the fact that hold the line seems to be unchanged, with defender up you're still going to be hit more often ( due to the increased engagement limit ) and/or hit harder ( because of your lower deflection ).

Battlefield control is only useful when you have the durability to back it up, stopping three enemies and getting instagibbed in the process is, usually, not a good idea.

Also, frankly, engagement is just a weaker form of CC; even if the new AI made engagement stronger ( and I don't really see how... against a full tank,a smart opponent is just going to eat a weak melee attack in order to disengage and get to the softies, which makes engagement weaker, if anything ) there are far worse offenders in the CC department than the weak battlefield control a fighter can sport with defender.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Njall

[Judicator]

Is there any reason to even use a fighter now? Paladin seems like a superior tank with this latest nerf.

[MunoValente]

Fighters still can tank some and still have more attacking power than a paladin.

 

I'm fine with the various deflection nerfs.  Tank and spank was a really broken tactic and that was largely because the tank side of things was too easy with high deflection.  When you could just sit in front of a dragon endlessly and almost never get hit, it's pretty clearly out of hand.  Combat should now be more lethal for both sides, which I think is good, it picks up the pace in minor battles, but also makes them a little more dangerous and hopefully makes bigger battles more interesting without tanking being so simple and effective.