Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

cirdanx · July 8, 2015

Those are possible consequences, but none of those are realistically going to be worse than the consequences of Versailles, World War 2 and the like. The only ones which are likely are bits of 2 and yeah, the Europe wide recession but that has happened before and is/ was also inevitable due to the stupid rules/ fundamentals of the eurozone and rules which near nobody follows. A lot of the stuff which is going on now is not so much about Greece itself, but on shifting the blame to Greece and away from irresponsible lending, rubbish rules that were not followed with the collusion and active participation of nearly every EZ country and the stupidity/ pandering at the heart of the EZ's establishment. It will be interesting to see how history treats this in ten, twenty, fifty years and whether they blame the Greeks or the EZ/ its rules for whatever happens.

It´s interesting isn´t it. Worth a study in human behaviour. As long as we don´t directly feel it and politicans tell us "we" are all doing good, people close their eyes. If something goes wrong -> blame someone else. It´s not Greece that is the problem, it´s the EU and it´s currency itself. And you are right, noone plays by the rules, but as long as Bruessel and the banks get their money it´s ok. I wonder what would happen when we default. Austria is dip**** in debt too and has broken EU debt law on a constant basis. But then..the EU also bails out "countries" which was against EU law from day one.

Anyway well said^^

BruceVC · July 8, 2015

I love how Bruce keeps posting links that actually disprove the points he's making. He can't read, he's impervious to facts and logic, and yet, despite taking a sound beating in every topic in which he participates, he's never afraid to remind everyone of how ignorant he is. Trollish regeneration at work, I suppose.

Why people keep engaging with him is beyond me...

I do it because it´s funny sometimes, but also frustraiting, he reminds me off smart ass kid, that sounds clever only to himself in his mind, while everyone else is facepalming around him. But you said it also very well

Not only early on, also during the bigger part of the war. They played him. But there is no chance in my opinion on a war scenario between european states today. Most even have nothing that should be considered an army and would lack any support from the people.

Come now, lets be honest ....I'm sure you constantly feel that there are smart people around you all the time...this should be normal? :teehee:

People keep saying "austerity doesn't work, its been proven "

This is a fundamental and relevant point and one I disagree with. Lets take Spain, yes they still have a high unemployment and high government debt but there economy is on the rebound despite what people like 2133 will tell you. There banking sector is healthy and they have the one of the fastest growing economies in the EU

[...]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/20/spains-improving-economy-is-not-reaching-everyone

I love how Bruce keeps posting links that actually disprove the points he's making. He can't read, he's impervious to facts and logic, and yet, despite taking a sound beating in every topic in which he participates, he's never afraid to remind everyone of how ignorant he is. Trollish regeneration at work, I suppose.

Why people keep engaging with him is beyond me...

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence :biggrin:

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

BruceVC · July 8, 2015

People keep saying "austerity doesn't work, its been proven "

This is a fundamental and relevant point and one I disagree with. Lets take Spain, yes they still have a high unemployment and high government debt but there economy is on the rebound despite what people like 2133 will tell you. There banking sector is healthy and they have the one of the fastest growing economies in the EU

http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/moodys-raises-outlook-for-spains-banks-to-positive-ending-7-year-negative-rating-308123421.html

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/02/world/europe/ap-eu-spain-economy.html?_r=0

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/20/spains-improving-economy-is-not-reaching-everyone

Are you seriously using Spain as an example of austerity working? There is over 20% unemployment and real wages have been declining since 2008. If that's austerity working then it doesn't seem to be able to help workers.

And then we have Ireland which left the bailout program end of the 2013 and is fastest growing economy in the EU

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/07/irelands-post-bailout-bonds-blowout/

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-to-be-fastest-growing-euro-area-economy-in-2015-1.2062814

Ireland also went through difficult austerity and came through stronger despite issues around social security cuts ....so to keep saying " austerity doesn't work" simply doesn't reflect the reality. I'm not saying its not hard ....but that is not the same thing as saying it doesn't work

http://news.yahoo.com/ireland-preparing-lift-austerity-measures-043224486.html;_ylt=A0LEVy9aX5tVqIEABOFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMHZ0NG9yBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

Ireland has an unemployment rate of 9.7% and real wages have been declining since 2009. Not doing as badly as Italy or Spain is a rather weak achievement.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AV_AN_WAGE

Not to mention the effects the cuts and regressive taxes had on people: http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/irelands-austerity-success-is-no-model-for-greece-340662.html

Comparatively we have Iceland which did not pursue austerity and has an unemployment of 4.7%(less than half of Ireland) and has seen real wages increase since 2008.

http://www.statice.is/?PageID=1251&src=https://rannsokn.hagstofa.is/pxen/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=VIS04004%26ti=Real+wages%2C+index+1989-2015+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++%26path=../Database/visitolur/launavisitala/%26lang=1%26units=Index/percent

It's pretty clear that austerity measures don't help the economy.

When Germany was in that situation, in 1952, Greece wrote off their debt.
And that was after Germany attacked Greece and killed a lot of them.

KP thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, even if we disagree

A couple of corrections, funny enough the 24 % unemployment rate in Spain is considered serious but the good news is about other things that the Spanish have done since austerity was introduced . In the USA the unemployment rate becomes a key barometer of the success of the presidency so I can understand you focusing on that in Spain but that is just part of the overall economic picture

Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher and if Spain was in the USA it would probably be considered economically challenged. Each county in the EU undergoing austerity has had different levels of transformation...with Greece being the exception

But there is no such thing as completely recovered for any of the 5 countries. But considering these countries were on the verge of bankruptcy we really need to see the progression

HoonDing · July 8, 2015

Got a Greek € coin today.

Dis gonna be worth a lot in twenty years.

Gfted1 · July 8, 2015

Euro currency designs vary from country to country?

Chilloutman · July 8, 2015

Euro currency designs vary from country to country?

not from country to country, but same coin can have different visual based on any state country on back side. You can pay with 'greek' coin in any state of eurozone. Front is same, back icon vary

Gfted1 · July 8, 2015

not from country to country, but same coin can have different visual based on any state country on back side. You can pay with 'greek' coin in any state of eurozone. Front is same, back icon vary

I see, just like the 50 State Quarter Program.

Meshugger · July 8, 2015

not from country to country, but same coin can have different visual based on any state country on back side. You can pay with 'greek' coin in any state of eurozone. Front is same, back icon vary

I see, just like the 50 State Quarter Program.

Pretty much.

Collectors usually buy these for each re-issue in each country.

cirdanx · July 8, 2015

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

BruceVC · July 8, 2015

Answer me this:

Greece gets a package to restructure debt that, in effect, allows Spain and Portugal to default and demand the same. EDIT - and stay in the Euro.

How do you manage northern Europe and the political reality that Germans, French, Dutch and others have to work harder and pay more taxes so southern Europe can keep on electing student politicians, retiring early and taking siestas? Who is going to vote for pro-European parties?

Why would they?

Club Med shouldn't be in the Euro. OK, my politics dictate that nobody should be in the Euro, but if you're gonna have one you need analogous economies to share a currency.

You need to start pushing this point, you have been almost unconcerned about the excuses and justifications. And you are far too knowledgeable and reasonable to allow this to go on unchecked. People will believe the hyperbole if you don't say something, you know most people automatically dismiss my view even if I'm right :teehee: And I believe you are a person of principles and integrity...so demonstrate it

It feels like I am the only one pushing this view and saying " Greece needs to take responsibility " ...and I don't even live in Europe

BruceVC · July 8, 2015

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Edited July 8, 2015 by BruceVC

PK htiw klaw eriF · July 8, 2015

KP thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, even if we disagree

A couple of corrections, funny enough the 24 % unemployment rate in Spain is considered serious but the good news is about other things that the Spanish have done since austerity was introduced . In the USA the unemployment rate becomes a key barometer of the success of the presidency so I can understand you focusing on that in Spain but that is just part of the overall economic picture

Are you seriously trying to make an argument that unemployment isn't a key indicator of economic health outside the US because the president doesn't rely on it to campaign?

Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before.

Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher and if Spain was in the USA it would probably be considered economically challenged. Each county in the EU undergoing austerity has had different levels of transformation...with Greece being the exception

No, I was judging it based on Iceland which did not do austerity but rather went for stimulation. And it worked out far better for them than austerity did for the successful example you gave, let alone how its worked out for Spain and Greece.

But there is no such thing as completely recovered for any of the 5 countries. But considering these countries were on the verge of bankruptcy we really need to see the progression

There was a complete recovery , or more complete, for Iceland. You know how they pulled it off? They forgave mortgage debts, indicted private banks rather than bailing them out, and provided support for the poor. Which is exactly the opposite of what EU austerity has done over the last five years and judging by the effects it's clear that austerity does not result in growth and is an awful idea for a depressed economy. Edited July 8, 2015 by KaineParker

BruceVC · July 9, 2015

KP thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, even if we disagree

A couple of corrections, funny enough the 24 % unemployment rate in Spain is considered serious but the good news is about other things that the Spanish have done since austerity was introduced . In the USA the unemployment rate becomes a key barometer of the success of the presidency so I can understand you focusing on that in Spain but that is just part of the overall economic picture

Are you seriously trying to make an argument that unemployment isn't a key indicator of economic health outside the US because the president doesn't rely on it to campaign?

Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before.

Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher and if Spain was in the USA it would probably be considered economically challenged. Each county in the EU undergoing austerity has had different levels of transformation...with Greece being the exception
No, I was judging it based on Iceland which did not do austerity but rather went for stimulation. And it worked out far better for them than austerity did for the successful example you gave, let alone how its worked out for Spain and Greece.

But there is no such thing as completely recovered for any of the 5 countries. But considering these countries were on the verge of bankruptcy we really need to see the progression
There was a complete recovery , or more complete, for Iceland. You know how they pulled it off? They forgave mortgage debts, indicted private banks rather than bailing them out, and provided support for the poor. Which is exactly the opposite of what EU austerity has done over the last five years and judging by the effects it's clear that austerity does not result in growth and is an awful idea for a depressed economy.

No what I am saying is various metrics are used to measure the effectiveness of austerity and umemployment is just one of them

" Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before" not when a country is undergoing austerity. Check this link

http://www.bbc.com/news/10162176

So you will see the austerity objectives and they are all based on structural reforms to achieve two objectives ...to return stability and then growth to there economies

They were not concerned with unemployment, that will come later as the free market naturally seizes opportunities

So you cant see austerity in the light of unemployment

By the way why are you on the Greek side? Why are you defending there failure to reform. You live in Texas, most people you know understand the EU perspective and are more loyal to it, don't be an ideological traitor now KP :biggrin:

cirdanx · July 9, 2015

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Native Austrian. If you think you can imply some sort of racial bias you are wrong. We Austrians are very liberal and open, naturaly if you take a close look at our history. Yet, we are not stupid when it comes to destroying our culture in favour of an overruling EU policy.

You clearly have no knowledge about Serbs or their and our history, don´t mention them you will only embaress yourself.

You are not offending me. That IMF report is a proof on how austerity doesn´t work, BECAUSE it showed it two years ago, NOW look at greece. Did it work? THe answer is no, they knew it didn´t work. And don´t even try to turn your words around again because the IMF is one of the creditors and thus a perfect source.

Again you have nothing to show. This report is 2 years old, yes BUT THAT IS THE POINT IDIOT. Now Greece is dip**** in trouble. BUt hey. tell me..show me how in the last 2 years the austerity in these countries worked...i beg you..show me.

And also how me forcasts, especially in a europe losing millions because of iditoic sancations.

I would like to see that...but you can´t no matter how you bend...try it

24% - 50%. Can´t you ****ing read? Your 24% unemployment rate is the general rate. Youth unemployment is alomst 50% THAT is more imporant then the general number. What the TROIKA, the DEBT firm says is of no matter, when it doesn´t make up the reality.

No, you don´t get it. It doesn´t matter what the TROIKA says, if there is rising unemployment, and sinking living standarts, then it doesn´t matter what the Troika says. It´s irrelevant because it´s not the reality. Infact, it doesn´t matter **** what the Troika says because the member states don´t act nor care about it.

Again..you didn´t answer the questions. How has any country benefited from austerity, (this includes the people living there in the long run, because thats the idea).

How is the EU policy better than sovereign states?

How is having a currency better than having your own?

How is it better to not have your own border control and let anyone in?

How can you, speaking out for democracy on me several times, support a non democracy (EU) organisation?

Any ideas yet except "i will answer latter" like you did in my Ukraine post, but didn´t find anything against it?

Try...at last..i will enjoy it

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Native Austrian. If you think you can imply some sort of racial bias you are wrong. We Austrians are very liberal and open, naturaly if you take a close look at our history. Yet, we are not stupid when it comes to destroying our culture in favour of an overruling EU policy.

You clearly have no knowledge about Serbs or their and our history, don´t mention them you will only embaress yourself.

You are not offending me. That IMF report is a proof on how austerity doesn´t work, BECAUSE it showed it two years ago, NOW look at greece. Did it work? THe answer is no, they knew it didn´t work. And don´t even try to turn your words around again because the IMF is one of the creditors and thus a perfect source.

Again you have nothing to show. This report is 2 years old, yes BUT THAT IS THE POINT IDIOT. Now Greece is dip**** in trouble. BUt hey. tell me..show me how in the last 2 years the austerity in these countries worked...i beg you..show me.

And also how me forcasts, especially in a europe losing millions because of iditoic sancations.

I would like to see that...but you can´t no matter how you bend...try it

24% - 50%. Can´t you ****ing read? Your 24% unemployment rate is the general rate. Youth unemployment is alomst 50% THAT is more imporant then the general number. What the TROIKA, the DEBT firm says is of no matter, when it doesn´t make up the reality.

No, you don´t get it. It doesn´t matter what the TROIKA says, if there is rising unemployment, and sinking living standarts, then it doesn´t matter what the Troika says. It´s irrelevant because it´s not the reality. Infact, it doesn´t matter **** what the Troika says because the member states don´t act nor care about it.

Again..you didn´t answer the questions. How has any country benefited from austerity, (this includes the people living there in the long run, because thats the idea).

How is the EU policy better than sovereign states?

How is having a currency better than having your own?

How is it better to not have your own border control and let anyone in?

How can you, speaking out for democracy on me several times, support a non democracy (EU) organisation?

Any ideas yet except "i will answer latter" like you did in my Ukraine post, but didn´t find anything against it?

Try...at last..i will enjoy it

cirdanx · July 9, 2015

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Native Austrian. If you think you can imply some sort of racial bias you are wrong. We Austrians are very liberal and open, naturaly if you take a close look at our history. Yet, we are not stupid when it comes to destroying our culture in favour of an overruling EU policy.

You clearly have no knowledge about Serbs or their and our history, don´t mention them you will only embaress yourself.

You are not offending me. That IMF report is a proof on how austerity doesn´t work, BECAUSE it showed it two years ago, NOW look at greece. Did it work? THe answer is no, they knew it didn´t work. And don´t even try to turn your words around again because the IMF is one of the creditors and thus a perfect source.

Again you have nothing to show. This report is 2 years old, yes BUT THAT IS THE POINT IDIOT. Now Greece is dip**** in trouble. BUt hey. tell me..show me how in the last 2 years the austerity in these countries worked...i beg you..show me.

And also how me a forcast, especially in a europe losing millions because of iditoic sancations.

I would like to see that...but you can´t no matter how you bend...try it (except the EU losing alomst 100Billions because of nonsense sanctions..thanks US)

24% - 50%. Can´t you ****ing read? Your 24% unemployment rate is the general rate. Youth unemployment is alomst 50% THAT is more imporant then the general number. What the TROIKA, the DEBT firm says is of no matter, when it doesn´t make up the reality.

No, you don´t get it. It doesn´t matter what the TROIKA says, if there is rising unemployment, and sinking living standarts, then it doesn´t matter what the Troika says. It´s irrelevant because it´s not the reality. Infact, it doesn´t matter **** what the Troika says because the member states don´t act nor care about it.

Again..you didn´t answer the questions. How has any country benefited from austerity, (this includes the people living there in the long run, because thats the idea).

How is the EU policy better than sovereign states?

How is having a currency better than having your own?

How is it better to not have your own border control and let anyone in?

How can you, speaking out for democracy on me several times, support a non democracy (EU) organisation?

Any ideas yet except "i will answer latter" like you did in my Ukraine post, but didn´t find anything against it?

Try...at last..i will enjoy it

Edited July 9, 2015 by cirdanx

Elerond · July 9, 2015

Austerity don't make economies grow, it has bad habit to do absolute opposite, but austerity can be only method to correct country's economy when their public spending is larger than their income. Greece in situation where it is because its public spending was much larger than their actual income and they just borrowed more and more money enable it until point where loan markets said they will not anymore give loans to Greece with such interest rates that Greece has any ability to take more loans and still continue to run their country. Which is where Troika come in and lend Greece money to pay their previous debts and gave them ability continue to run their country. But Troika was evil and put terms to their loans which dictate that Greece should cut their public spending and rise their income. Greece's attempts to do that failed and Troika become more evil and created the austerity plan themselves that Greece should follow if they want additional loans from them, Greece accepted this plan (they really didn't have choice at the time), Troika's plan was quite harsh and Greece government mostly failed in their attempts to increase incomes through taxes (quite lot people blame Greeks habit to avoid paying taxes), which meant that cuts in spending were much larger than what was meant. These harsh cuts caused people of Greece first change their government and then reject Troika's plan. And now Troika is asking Greece to offer them alternate plan that would balance their economy.

EU is union of countries that we claim to be democratic (because its membership rules state that member state needs to be democratic) and it is governed by National Parliaments (which should be selected in democratic elections), National Governments (which are usually formed by National Parliaments according to election results), Heads of Governments/States (presidents, prime ministers, chancellor(s), which are elected in their own elections or by National Parliaments), European Parliament(members of this parliament are elected in separately held elections in every member state), European Council (is formed from Heads of Governments in such manner that every state has one member, even if they have multiple Heads) President of European Council (is elected by Heads of Governments/States), European Commission (is proposed by European Council and elected by European Parliament), President of European Commission (is proposed by European council and elected by European Parliament, becomes after election a member of European Council), Council of Ministers (is formed from members of National Governments, Conveys in varying compositions depending on policy area, each member state is represented by one member per department), European Court of Auditors (is proposed by National Governments, elected by Council of Ministers, each members state is represented by one member), European Court of Justice (elected by National Governments, each state represented by one member), European Central Bank (is composed of representatives of National Central Banks and it board is elected by European Council on proposals of Council of Ministers). So EU is democratic mess which rules can put some constraints in self-rule of its members states.

cirdanx · July 9, 2015

Austerity don't make economies grow, it has bad habit to do absolute opposite, but austerity can be only method to correct country's economy when their public spending is larger than their income.

This is wrong, you just said it doesn´t help but in that specific case it helps? In fact greece is the perfect example that in this case it doesn´t help.

Greece in situation where it is because its public spending was much larger than their actual income and they just borrowed more and more money enable it until point where loan markets said they will not anymore give loans to Greece with such interest rates that Greece has any ability to take more loans and still continue to run their country. Yes Which is where Troika come in and lend Greece money to pay their previous debts and gave them ability continue to run their country. But Troika was evil and put terms to their loans which dictate that Greece should cut their public spending and rise their income. Greece's attempts to do that failed and Troika become more evil and created the austerity plan themselves that Greece should follow if they want additional loans from them, Greece accepted this plan (they really didn't have choice at the time),At that point in the time, they sat in an EU technocrat to rule that ****, we know the outcome Troika's plan was quite harsh and Greece government mostly failed in their attempts to increase incomes through taxes (quite lot people blame Greeks habit to avoid paying taxes), which meant that cuts in spending were much larger than what was meant. These harsh cuts caused people of Greece first change their government and then reject Troika's plan. And now Troika is asking Greece to offer them alternate plan that would balance their economy. No. THey are just afraid it will spill over, the TROIKA are banks, they will bleed you dry as long as they can as long as can make money of you. Greece doesn´t wanted to go further with austerity, because the ****ing people can´t pay it anymore. So what now? Thats the question. More debt? More austerity? Or get your ****ing sense together and leave this failed EU. I would vote for the last.

EU is union of countries that we claim to be democratic (because its membership rules state that member state needs to be democratic) and it is governed by National Parliaments (which should be selected in democratic elections), National Governments (which are usually formed by National Parliaments according to election results), Heads of Governments/States (presidents, prime ministers, chancellor(s), which are elected in their own elections or by National Parliaments), European Parliament(members of this parliament are elected in separately held elections in every member state), European Council (is formed from Heads of Governments in such manner that every state has one member, even if they have multiple Heads) President of European Council (is elected by Heads of Governments/States), European Commission (is proposed by European Council and elected by European Parliament), President of European Commission (is proposed by European council and elected by European Parliament, becomes after election a member of European Council), Council of Ministers (is formed from members of National Governments, Conveys in varying compositions depending on policy area, each member state is represented by one member per department), European Court of Auditors (is proposed by National Governments, elected by Council of Ministers, each members state is represented by one member), European Court of Justice (elected by National Governments, each state represented by one member), European Central Bank (is composed of representatives of National Central Banks and it board is elected by European Council on proposals of Council of Ministers). So EU is democratic mess which rules can put some constraints in self-rule of its members states.

It doesn´t matter if the member states are democratic when bruessel isn´t. not hard to understandt. and right now the EU in bruessel (hey america here you can drop your bombs than EVEN i will thank you) dictates everything.

From small business taxes, smoking rules, to exports to russia....also still bound to a currency that will ruin us. That **** Nuland said one thing right..**** THE EU. But also the US.

Elerond · July 9, 2015

Austerity don't make economies grow, it has bad habit to do absolute opposite, but austerity can be only method to correct country's economy when their public spending is larger than their income.

This is wrong, you just said it doesn´t help but in that specific case it helps? In fact greece is the perfect example that in this case it doesn´t help.

Greece in situation where it is because its public spending was much larger than their actual income and they just borrowed more and more money enable it until point where loan markets said they will not anymore give loans to Greece with such interest rates that Greece has any ability to take more loans and still continue to run their country. Yes Which is where Troika come in and lend Greece money to pay their previous debts and gave them ability continue to run their country. But Troika was evil and put terms to their loans which dictate that Greece should cut their public spending and rise their income. Greece's attempts to do that failed and Troika become more evil and created the austerity plan themselves that Greece should follow if they want additional loans from them, Greece accepted this plan (they really didn't have choice at the time),At that point in the time, they sat in an EU technocrat to rule that ****, we know the outcome Troika's plan was quite harsh and Greece government mostly failed in their attempts to increase incomes through taxes (quite lot people blame Greeks habit to avoid paying taxes), which meant that cuts in spending were much larger than what was meant. These harsh cuts caused people of Greece first change their government and then reject Troika's plan. And now Troika is asking Greece to offer them alternate plan that would balance their economy. No. THey are just afraid it will spill over, the TROIKA are banks, they will bleed you dry as long as they can as long as can make money of you. Greece doesn´t wanted to go further with austerity, because the ****ing people can´t pay it anymore. So what now? Thats the question. More debt? More austerity? Or get your ****ing sense together and leave this failed EU. I would vote for the last.

EU is union of countries that we claim to be democratic (because its membership rules state that member state needs to be democratic) and it is governed by National Parliaments (which should be selected in democratic elections), National Governments (which are usually formed by National Parliaments according to election results), Heads of Governments/States (presidents, prime ministers, chancellor(s), which are elected in their own elections or by National Parliaments), European Parliament(members of this parliament are elected in separately held elections in every member state), European Council (is formed from Heads of Governments in such manner that every state has one member, even if they have multiple Heads) President of European Council (is elected by Heads of Governments/States), European Commission (is proposed by European Council and elected by European Parliament), President of European Commission (is proposed by European council and elected by European Parliament, becomes after election a member of European Council), Council of Ministers (is formed from members of National Governments, Conveys in varying compositions depending on policy area, each member state is represented by one member per department), European Court of Auditors (is proposed by National Governments, elected by Council of Ministers, each members state is represented by one member), European Court of Justice (elected by National Governments, each state represented by one member), European Central Bank (is composed of representatives of National Central Banks and it board is elected by European Council on proposals of Council of Ministers). So EU is democratic mess which rules can put some constraints in self-rule of its members states.

It doesn´t matter if the member states are democratic when bruessel isn´t. not hard to understandt. and right now the EU in bruessel (hey america here you can drop your bombs than EVEN i will thank you) dictates everything.

From small business taxes, smoking rules, to exports to russia....also still bound to a currency that will ruin us. That **** Nuland said one thing right..**** THE EU. But also the US.

If you look every governing institution in EU is such that its formed by democratic process or by another institution that is formed by democratic process.

PK htiw klaw eriF · July 9, 2015

No what I am saying is various metrics are used to measure the effectiveness of austerity and umemployment is just one of them

Unemployment is a key indicator of economic health, which you were arguing has improved under austerity in Spain and Ireland. I countered with an example of a state, Iceland, that has been performing much better than Spain or Ireland when they did the opposite of austerity. I'll admit to having a hard time understanding what you're saying most of the time so perhaps you weren't arguing that austerity resulted in a better economy for Spain and Ireland.

" Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before" not when a country is undergoing austerity. Check this link

http://www.bbc.com/news/10162176

So you will see the austerity objectives and they are all based on structural reforms to achieve two objectives ...to return stability and then growth to there economies

The objective of austerity is to extract money from an economy. If the motive behind this action is to return stability, they are failing badly because unemployment is part of economic stability and the debt situation is no closer to being addressed in a sustainable manner.

At any rate, I reject the ideology behind pushing for austerity in a depressed economy. Getting people working and the standard of living rising should be the top priority when facing a depressed economy. Austerity in this situation just compounds economic misery and prevents a long-term solution to debt from being enacted due to Greece constantly lacking the funds to make payments without borrowing.

They were not concerned with unemployment, that will come later as the free market naturally seizes opportunities

Seeing as they've done nothing to help citizens and quite a bit to harm them, it's quite clear that those pushing for austerity were not concerned with unemployment and standard of living in general. As to the free market riding in on Ayn Rand and saving the day with its magical powers after austerity makes everything "fiscally responsible', that is a pipe dream. In reality, corporations and banks will buy whatever Greece privatizes and charge more while paying less to employees while people have to accept working for less due to less benefits and more fees.

So you cant see austerity in the light of unemployment

I certainly can, given that several austerity measures would increase unemployment by cutting government employees. If it causes more unemployment in a depressed economy, I'm going to consider it to be a terrible idea.

By the way why are you on the Greek side? Why are you defending there failure to reform. You live in Texas, most people you know understand the EU perspective and are more loyal to it, don't be an ideological traitor now KP

If "failure to reform" means that Greece will not cut the legs off their economy when it is already half dead, then I fully advocate Greece failing to reform because it's the sensible and moral thing to do. Greece has an economy that is in the gutter, largely caused by adopting a less competitive currency and developing a large trade deficit which proved extremely damaging to its main industries. Extracting money through austerity is the last thing Greece should be doing in this situation because it will compound and extend short-term economic issues like unemployment and declining real wages and make long-term issues like debt harder to address. It's ironic that those pushing for austerity claim to be interested in "fiscal responsibility" and getting Greece to pay its debts, yet the policies they are advocating for will keep Greece from growing its economy and being able to have the money to actually pay debts.

BruceVC · July 9, 2015

If "failure to reform" means that Greece will not cut the legs off their economy when it is already half dead, then I fully advocate Greece failing to reform because it's the sensible and moral thing to do. Greece has an economy that is in the gutter, largely caused by adopting a less competitive currency and developing a large trade deficit which proved extremely damaging to its main industries. Extracting money through austerity is the last thing Greece should be doing in this situation because it will compound and extend short-term economic issues like unemployment and declining real wages and make long-term issues like debt harder to address. It's ironic that those pushing for austerity claim to be interested in "fiscal responsibility" and getting Greece to pay its debts, yet the policies they are advocating for will keep Greece from growing its economy and being able to have the money to actually pay debts.

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased. Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around :biggrin:

BruceVC · July 9, 2015

Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence

Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun

Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers

Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing.

What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic

But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work.

You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do.

Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work.

You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece.

This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier.

The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place.

I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks.

So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country.

Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me.

One more thing.

Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really?

"Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher"

There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself).

It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone.

Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa

I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries

Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013

So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions

Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

Native Austrian. If you think you can imply some sort of racial bias you are wrong. We Austrians are very liberal and open, naturaly if you take a close look at our history. Yet, we are not stupid when it comes to destroying our culture in favour of an overruling EU policy.

You clearly have no knowledge about Serbs or their and our history, don´t mention them you will only embaress yourself.

You are not offending me. That IMF report is a proof on how austerity doesn´t work, BECAUSE it showed it two years ago, NOW look at greece. Did it work? THe answer is no, they knew it didn´t work. And don´t even try to turn your words around again because the IMF is one of the creditors and thus a perfect source.

Again you have nothing to show. This report is 2 years old, yes BUT THAT IS THE POINT IDIOT. Now Greece is dip**** in trouble. BUt hey. tell me..show me how in the last 2 years the austerity in these countries worked...i beg you..show me.

And also how me a forcast, especially in a europe losing millions because of iditoic sancations.

I would like to see that...but you can´t no matter how you bend...try it (except the EU losing alomst 100Billions because of nonsense sanctions..thanks US)

24% - 50%. Can´t you ****ing read? Your 24% unemployment rate is the general rate. Youth unemployment is alomst 50% THAT is more imporant then the general number. What the TROIKA, the DEBT firm says is of no matter, when it doesn´t make up the reality.

No, you don´t get it. It doesn´t matter what the TROIKA says, if there is rising unemployment, and sinking living standarts, then it doesn´t matter what the Troika says. It´s irrelevant because it´s not the reality. Infact, it doesn´t matter **** what the Troika says because the member states don´t act nor care about it.

Again..you didn´t answer the questions. How has any country benefited from austerity, (this includes the people living there in the long run, because thats the idea).

How is the EU policy better than sovereign states?

How is having a currency better than having your own?

How is it better to not have your own border control and let anyone in?

How can you, speaking out for democracy on me several times, support a non democracy (EU) organisation?

Any ideas yet except "i will answer latter" like you did in my Ukraine post, but didn´t find anything against it?

Try...at last..i will enjoy it

Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West?

Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective

You can ask me anything if you want ?

Bartimaeus · July 9, 2015

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased. Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus

BruceVC · July 9, 2015

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased. Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard.

Nah that's just the SJ view we use to not hurt peoples feelings, someone always has to be right in this type of debate

Barti you on my side right?

teknoman2 · July 9, 2015

one of the worst decisions Greece made was to host the olypmics in 2004. bilions were spent on ifrastructure for the event and all that infrastructure is sitting unused since then. even worse, the state had to pay "protection money" in the form of crime prevention and anti terrorist surveilance equipment (like the C4I from siemens) that was prepaid in full and was never delivered to this day (i.e siemens could pay some mercenary company to stage a terrorist attack and say that "it could have been prevented if you had the C4I that you refused to buy" or in other words "had you paid your protection money")

BruceVC · July 9, 2015

one of the worst decisions Greece made was to host the olypmics in 2004. bilions were spent on ifrastructure for the event and all that infrastructure is sitting unused since then. even worse, the state had to pay "protection money" in the form of crime prevention and anti terrorist surveilance equipment (like the C4I from siemens) that was prepaid in full and was never delivered to this day (i.e siemens could pay some mercenary company to stage a terrorist attack and say that "it could have been prevented if you had the C4I that you refused to buy" or in other words "had you paid your protection money")

Interesting so Greece spent all its money paying for protection...that makes sense. We should let the Germans know, they may be more lenient ?

Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

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