Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

[Bartimaeus]

 

 

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

 

 

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard.

 

Nah that's just the SJ view we use to not hurt peoples feelings, someone always has to be right in this type of debate  

 

Barti you on my side right?

 

 

I don't personally know enough about how economies work for me to feel comfortable in committing to a side. Interesting things have been said on both sides, and I'm leaning towards "austerity doesn't really seem like the correct course based on the evidence..." ...but the sample size is oh so small, and it's easy to look at the effects of certain actions in hindsight and go, "Yeah, look at what austerity/not doing austerity did!" ...if you're not considering how small that sample size is and the fact that there may be much more to do with it than just one particular factor. In my opinion, situations usually have a tendency to be much more complex than they merely appear, and if there were ever a complex situation, this would be one...so unless I become much, much more educated in the subject instead of just looking at what I essentially consider anecdotal evidence (such as that is present in this topic), I can't really convincingly take a side.

 

Really, I just popped in to keep you on your toes.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

 

 

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard.

 

Nah that's just the SJ view we use to not hurt peoples feelings, someone always has to be right in this type of debate  

 

Barti you on my side right?

 

 

I don't personally know enough about how economies work for me to feel comfortable in committing to a side. Interesting things have been said on both sides, and I'm leaning towards "austerity doesn't really seem like the correct course based on the evidence..." ...but the sample size is oh so small, and it's easy to look at the effects of certain actions in hindsight and go, "Yeah, look at what austerity/not doing austerity did!" ...if you're not considering how small that sample size is and the fact that there may be much more to do with it than just one particular factor. In my opinion, situations usually have a tendency to be much more complex than they merely appear, and if there were ever a complex situation, this would be one.

 

Really, I just popped in to keep you on your toes.

 

 

Barti trust me you don't want to be on that side, have you seen all the anti-Western people on that side

 

Wouldn't it be better to be on the side of the countries that have managed there economies ?

[Bartimaeus]

My problem with such an argument (and others like it you've made previously and in other topics), is that it is primarily emotionally/feeling-driven, not reasoning/evidence-based. Just your feelings are going to have a tough time convincing anyone of your side, my friend. So no, any supposed "anti-Western" bias those arguing against austerity might show doesn't really affect too much how I see this issue...once in a while, I even see a little wisdom in Volourn's posts...even underneath the constant hyperbole and personal attacks as it is.

 

(edit): I should say...clear and extreme biases obviously can undermine one's credibility, of course, but unless it reaches obyknven (spelling?) levels, it's usually not enough to reject decent points/evidence out of hand. Even oby makes a reasonable point about Western hypocrisy/bias (IMO) once in a great while...though it's obviously never enough to convince me of all the other things he says.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

My problem with such an argument (and others like it you've made previously and in other topics), is that it is primarily emotionally/feeling-driven, not reasoning/evidence-based. Just your feelings are going to have a tough time convincing anyone of your side, my friend. So no, any supposed "anti-Western" bias those arguing against austerity might show doesn't really affect too much how I see this issue...once in a while, I even see a little wisdom in Volourn's posts...even underneath the constant hyperbole and personal attacks as it is.

Oh so you know I'm pro-Western?

 

I assume I don't have to ask you, I'm sure you are a patriot 

[Bartimaeus]

That depends on how you define a "patriot". You probably wouldn't think so, but others you're arguing against probably would... Being a patriot, to me, is, in general, supporting your country*...but also being willing to speak your mind freely about it, including criticizing it when you believe it does or goes wrong, so that we can realize our mistakes, potentially correct our course, and better ourselves for the future. It's also supporting/defending everyone in having their own opinions and beliefs, as well as exercising their freedoms, even if you personally find what they do with them repulsive and try to convince them to think/do otherwise - as long as they do not infringe on others.

 

(e): In my opinion, a lot of people criticize the West (and particularly the U.S.) because they want the West to do better. Obviously, it's up to you to determine if what they're actually proposing as an alternative would be better, but regardless, if the intention is "make some changes compared to what you're doing now so things/you will be better", I personally think that's admirable and the very opposite of unpatriotic. Obviously, very extreme cases like "throw out all Western values and institute Sharia law!" are probably not gonna garner much support from me, but even so, I would support their freedom to at least suggest it...preferably quietly .

 

(edit): *As an example, I would say being patriotic in this respect is...hoping your country continues to do well, that nothing terrible happens to it or the people within it...that it continues to be the country you love and want to reside within. You don't have to support everything it does, though: you can be a pacifist, for example, and personally wish that the U.S.'s soldiers were not involved in conflicts where people are getting hurt and/or killed...but to be patriotic in this regard would be to still wish them the best, hope that they all return home safe and sound (and, as a pacifist, without having had to have hurt anybody, particularly unnecessarily)...and that they generally succeed at their missions - outside of when they're doing things you personally find reprehensible, of course: you still support them, but not necessarily what they're doing, and you may wish for particular aspects of their objectives to not succeed (WITHOUT hoping that horrible things happen as a result): that is within your rights. This is patriotism to me.

 

edit edit edit I like to edit

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

That depends on how you define a "patriot". You probably wouldn't think so, but others you're arguing against probably would... Being a patriot, to me, is, in general, supporting your country...but also being willing to speak your mind freely about it, including criticizing it when you believe it does or goes wrong, so that we can realize our mistakes, potentially correct our course, and better ourselves. It's also supporting/defending everyone in having their own opinions and beliefs, as well as exercising their freedoms, even if you personally find what they do with them repulsive and try to convince them to think/do otherwise - as long as they do not infringe on others.

 

(e): In my opinion, a lot of people criticize the West (and particularly the U.S.) because they want the West to do better. Obviously, it's up to you to determine if what they're actually proposing as an alternative would be better, but regardless, if the intention is "make some changes so things/you will be better", I personally think that's admirable and the very opposite of unpatriotic. Obviously, very extreme cases like, "throw out all Western values and institute Sharia law" are probably not gonna garner much support from me, but even so, I would support their freedom to at least suggest it...preferably quietly .

" a lot of people criticize the West (and particularly the U.S.) because they want the West to do better "

 

That's cute, I admire that kind of naivety

 

The people that dislike America and criticize it  will vary with there feelings. Sadly many people actually really resent and or hate the USA . I don't know anyone that dislikes the USA because they want to improve it. Your next question should be " why  "  because I can promise you Barti 95 % of the reasons are uninformed, biased and exaggerated

 

And you have this fairly large sector of the Muslim community outside the USA who automatically hate the USA because they are ignorant in most cases and believe the  USA is on a crusade to surreptitiously destroy Islam 

 

" Yeah right you say....you exaggerating " sadly no. On these radio stations I listen to every single Muslim caller phones in and lambastes the USA ....they are completely brainwashed  and intransigent  and you cannot change there mind. They believe a whole host of conspiracy theories about the USA like 

 

• The USA did 9/11 to itself so it can conquer the Muslim world 
• The USA created ISIS
• The USA created Ebola to destroy Africa
• The USA illegally attacked Afghanistan 

I have tried to change there minds but its pointless...its really bad. 

 

But the good news is people like  me support and defend the USA constantly ...in fact I get great satisfaction from proving with facts that people are wrong on the radio 

 

And why do I defend the USA...am I this sad sycophant who loves another country more than his own?

No its about the strategic picture that the USA is the real foundation of Capitalism and Western ideology. We stand and fall with the USA whether we like it or not ..unless you a prefer a world dominated by Russia ? So of course I want the USA to succeed and make the right decisions 

[Bartimaeus]

See my somewhat heavily edited post in regards to the U.S.'s success and such: I tried to cover that with the latest edit.

 

I am fine with people with people have extremely negative opinions of the U.S. and the West: we're often worlds apart, in terms of culture. I was raised in mine and often have very negative opinions of things that happen elsewhere, and other people were born in theirs and often have very negative opinions of things that happen here. That's pretty normal: we're different. If they spout hatred and conspiracy theories and...whatever else against us, that's fine by me, as long as it doesn't turn into actions that infringe upon us (or others in their own country who have different opinions). It's within their rights, just as it's within our rights to ignore them and do differently. Western Europeans often like to make of the U.S. for being "backwards" in some ways, for its citizens' favorite sport being "handegg", for taking issue with our illegal immigrants trying to take residence (as, ironically - I think - they also often then have no trouble subsequently spouting hatred against all the Muslims and other peoples immigrating legally to their own home country for whatever reasons...), and whatever else: it doesn't really phase me too much, just as I'm sure any criticisms I have of their love for the dreadfully boring sport known as soccer (yeah, I went there, you non-anglo-saxon pansies, ) likely doesn't much phase them.

 

I don't think hardly anyone on these forums legitimately straight up hates the U.S.: some have bones to pick with the U.S. that, yes, often make it seem like they have a very negative view of the U.S. when certain subjects are brought up. Again, I think this is pretty normal...in fact, let me correct that "some have bones to pick with the U.S." to "everyone in the entire world, including the U.S.'s own citizens, has bones to pick with the U.S.". That doesn't mean everyone hates the U.S.: they just hate certain things about it. People may even say they straight up hate the U.S...but most people, when pressed, will say something like, "well, I mean, I hate their GOVERNMENT...not everyone actually in the U.S." and similar stuff. Fair enough for me: I often feel the same way, theoretical U.S.-hater!

 

Extremists may think they hate every single last aspect of the U.S....but extremists are usually the kind of people that are willing to do the whole "infringing on others" thing I mentioned, so I'm not really particularly concerned about them. If you're not willing to infringe on others in your hatred of the U.S., then you can't hate the U.S. that much...otherwise, you'd be willing to break that rule of ours. In conclusion, I don't think you need to defend the U.S. constantly: defend it when it's right and just to do so (and when it makes sense to you to do so...and hopefully when you can actually convince others that it makes sense to do so... ), and criticize it when it doesn't...just as everyone in the U.S. itself does. It's part of our process.

 

(edit): Oh, also: I don't really care if their "hatred" of the U.S. comes from ignorance/exaggerations: that's something seems pretty native to almost everyone in regards to one or some things or another...still doesn't stop anyone from making judgement on those things, and there's no reason it wouldn't be applicable here. Que sera, sera, Bruce.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Meshugger]

Looking at the graph below and you will see the current shape of the greek debt:

 

 

Who owns the debt? Who owns the banks that issue them? I really do not know.

[BruceVC]

Looking at the graph below and you will see the current shape of the greek debt:

 

 

Who owns the debt? Who owns the banks that issue them? I really do not know.

 

I'm sure this graph reinforces the point being made that there are loads of creditors that the Greeks need to at least make some effort to pay back 

[Ineth]

siemens could pay some mercenary company to stage a terrorist attack

 

You really love your conspiracy theories, don't you...

[BruceVC]

 

siemens could pay some mercenary company to stage a terrorist attack

 

You really love your conspiracy theories, don't you...

 

This thread is quite funny 

[Raithe]

The flip side of the question would be..

 

Can they balance their house budget? If they can't, why would you let them balance a countries budget?

 

If you throw in that metaphor, take Greece as a guy who constantly spends more than he earns. He then piles up the credit cards to keep living beyond his means and keeps borrowing from friends with a "Oh, yeah, I'm going to be more careful of my spending, and maybe get a promotion and pay rise at work" but never does. At what point would you try to sit down and say "I can't lend you any more money, because you haven't paid me back for the last 10 years and you keep going further into debt because you're not doing anything to change your situation".

 

Would you think its taking away his rights of individuality if his friends stopped lending him money, or the bailiffs turned up because he isn't paying his bills?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken.

If you can prove it, then go ahead. As it is, I've provided data to support the view that austerity doesn't deal with unemployment and have argued that short-term issues, such as unemployment, should be addressed and solved before long-term issues. In response, you've provided nothing to support your statements. It should be pretty clear you won't be able to convince me with emotional arguments so if you want to prove me wrong you'll have to prove that austerity measures will result in a more stable economy than stimulation when dealing with a depressed economy.

 

I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133.

My views on Greece are influenced by the evidence I've seen, not a long-winded New Zealand resident or a sassy bloke who is too leet for me. This may surprise you, but I developed most of my opinions outside of these forums.

 

They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And a middle-aged libertarian who likes to fight in tunnels or a pro-EU Finn are not going to be biased? How so?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

So my views should be determined by the state I was born and not by independent thought?

[cirdanx]

Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West? 

 

Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective 

 

You can ask me anything if you want ?

 

 

Yeah but as usual you are not able to answer anything as it seems.

 

Right now you are just trying to spin it around and make a pointless debat about what? Patriotism? Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

I will give this quick answers because you seem to have the memory and attention span of a child and i allready went into more details on this in the past in other threads.

 

Why i don´t like the EU is simple, because it is bad for my country and took away our autonomy, and we were lied and tricked into the Euro. I never said i hated the US, i specificly made it clear that a) i like the country and a lot that comes from it and b) have many friends there and generally speaking have nothing against the people there BUT that i despise everything Washington does in the world and to their own people. The values they preach (freedom, independence, democracy, etc) are nothing but a farce when there actions go into the complete opposite.

 

But again, that has nothing to do with the thread here. Stay on the topic.

 

Speaking of topic, Farage´s point of view on Greece, no matter what i think of him, i agree:

https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU

Edited July 9, 2015 by cirdanx

[BruceVC]

 

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken.

If you can prove it, then go ahead. As it is, I've provided data to support the view that austerity doesn't deal with unemployment and have argued that short-term issues, such as unemployment, should be addressed and solved before long-term issues. In response, you've provided nothing to support your statements. It should be pretty clear you won't be able to convince me with emotional arguments so if you want to prove me wrong you'll have to prove that austerity measures will result in a more stable economy than stimulation when dealing with a depressed economy.

 

I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133.

My views on Greece are influenced by the evidence I've seen, not a long-winded New Zealand resident or a sassy bloke who is too leet for me. This may surprise you, but I developed most of my opinions outside of these forums.

 

They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And a middle-aged libertarian who likes to fight in tunnels or a pro-EU Finn are not going to be biased? How so?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

So my views should be determined by the state I was born and not by independent thought?

 

 

Fair enough, you don't seem  to be influenced by others and you did your own research so I take that back

 

I think we have reached an impasse on this debate around the whole unemployment relevance. Its fundamental to our views on austerity  and one of us has to either agree its relevant or recognize its not. And I'm not going to admit its relevant in the context  of the austerity metrics so lets just agree to disagree and engage in the next one

[BruceVC]

 

Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West? 

 

Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective 

 

You can ask me anything if you want ?

 

 

Yeah but as usual you are not able to answer anything as it seems.

 

Right now you are just trying to spin it around and make a pointless debat about what? Patriotism? Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

I will give this quick answers because you seem to have the memory and attention span of a child and i allready went into more details on this in the past in other threads.

 

Why i don´t like the EU is simple, because it is bad for my country and took away our autonomy, and we were lied and tricked into the Euro. I never said i hated the US, i specificly made it clear that a) i like the country and a lot that comes from it and b) have many friends there and generally speaking have nothing against the people there BUT that i despise everything Washington does in the world and to their own people. The values they preach (freedom, independence, democracy, etc) are nothing but a farce when there actions go into the complete opposite.

 

But again, that has nothing to do with the thread here. Stay on the topic.

 

Speaking of topic, Farage´s point of view on Greece, no matter what i think of him, i agree:

https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU

 

 

You seem to be in a rush to get my responses? I just want to understand a little about what motivates you, most people ignore this question and I don't know why? Whats wrong about admitting what nationality you are 

 

Thanks for responding by the way, I just have a few more questions about your view on the EU

 

What do you mean they took away your freedom? And how do you feel they lied ?

[cirdanx]

If you look every governing institution in EU is such that its formed by democratic process or by another institution that is formed by democratic process. 

 

 

Yes, but the laws coming from the EU are not made by elected personal. If they conflict with the rulings of your country, you still have to bow to them because EU´s constitution overrules that of the nations. Not to mention the pressure they use. Examples, blocking south-stream effectly costing our country millions if not more and many jobs, or trying to pressure Hungary into a different energy market despite their contracts with Rosatom. Or overruling our exceptional good laws on animal protection, throwing us back years in that field.

 

[cirdanx]

 

 

Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West? 

 

Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective 

 

You can ask me anything if you want ?

 

 

Yeah but as usual you are not able to answer anything as it seems.

 

Right now you are just trying to spin it around and make a pointless debat about what? Patriotism? Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

I will give this quick answers because you seem to have the memory and attention span of a child and i allready went into more details on this in the past in other threads.

 

Why i don´t like the EU is simple, because it is bad for my country and took away our autonomy, and we were lied and tricked into the Euro. I never said i hated the US, i specificly made it clear that a) i like the country and a lot that comes from it and b) have many friends there and generally speaking have nothing against the people there BUT that i despise everything Washington does in the world and to their own people. The values they preach (freedom, independence, democracy, etc) are nothing but a farce when there actions go into the complete opposite.

 

But again, that has nothing to do with the thread here. Stay on the topic.

 

Speaking of topic, Farage´s point of view on Greece, no matter what i think of him, i agree:

https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU

 

 

You seem to be in a rush to get my responses? I just want to understand a little about what motivates you, most people ignore this question and I don't know why? Whats wrong about admitting what nationality you are 

 

Thanks for responding by the way, I just have a few more questions about your view on the EU

 

What do you mean they took away your freedom? And how do you feel they lied ?

 

 

Oh whatever, don´t answer at all, i don´t think you can make a reasonable answer, at last none that i can´t debunk anyway. I don´t care.

 

I said autonomy and not freedom. I allready explained on how having not your own currency effectly hinders your own ability to influence your economy. I also allready told you that we get 70% of new laws directly from the EU (made by not elected politicans). A lot of this laws are stupidly worse what we had before and cost us a fortune AND have a negative impact (for our farming sector as an example). So here we are, a consitution that overrules ours, laws from a different source we have to realize and a currency we can´t control. Per definition that makes us (and any other EU country..well maybe not Germany because they influence the EU to much) a vassal state, subordinate to the EU.

 

There is NOTHING good about this.

 

I didn´t say feeling. I said they lied. Thats a factual statement. All promises on how we benefit from the EU turned out to have the opposite effect and there is no way they couldn´t know that, at last about some aspects. What however was a clear lie, is that during the campaign for the EU accession it was promised all the time that we would have and keep our currency and would NOT get the Euro. Sometime after the referendum (one that was called faul by a lot of lawmakers) they turned around and forced us into the Euro currency without any referendum basicly saying "well we voted for the EU now we get the Euro as well".

 

That is lying and nothing else. And i applaud everyone who tries to get out of this failed project and gets back his independence just like Farage said.

Edited July 9, 2015 by cirdanx

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken.

 

If you can prove it, then go ahead. As it is, I've provided data to support the view that austerity doesn't deal with unemployment and have argued that short-term issues, such as unemployment, should be addressed and solved before long-term issues. In response, you've provided nothing to support your statements. It should be pretty clear you won't be able to convince me with emotional arguments so if you want to prove me wrong you'll have to prove that austerity measures will result in a more stable economy than stimulation when dealing with a depressed economy.

I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133.

 

My views on Greece are influenced by the evidence I've seen, not a long-winded New Zealand resident or a sassy bloke who is too leet for me. This may surprise you, but I developed most of my opinions outside of these forums.

They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

 

And a middle-aged libertarian who likes to fight in tunnels or a pro-EU Finn are not going to be biased? How so?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

 

So my views should be determined by the state I was born and not by independent thought?

 

Fair enough, you don't seem  to be influenced by others and you did your own research so I take that back

 

I think we have reached an impasse on this debate around the whole unemployment relevance. Its fundamental to our views on austerity  and one of us has to either agree its relevant or recognize its not. And I'm not going to admit its relevant in the context  of the austerity metrics so lets just agree to disagree and engage in the next one

So you're unable to back up your opinions with facts. Good to know.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West? 

 

Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective 

 

You can ask me anything if you want ?

 

 

Yeah but as usual you are not able to answer anything as it seems.

 

Right now you are just trying to spin it around and make a pointless debat about what? Patriotism? Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

I will give this quick answers because you seem to have the memory and attention span of a child and i allready went into more details on this in the past in other threads.

 

Why i don´t like the EU is simple, because it is bad for my country and took away our autonomy, and we were lied and tricked into the Euro. I never said i hated the US, i specificly made it clear that a) i like the country and a lot that comes from it and b) have many friends there and generally speaking have nothing against the people there BUT that i despise everything Washington does in the world and to their own people. The values they preach (freedom, independence, democracy, etc) are nothing but a farce when there actions go into the complete opposite.

 

But again, that has nothing to do with the thread here. Stay on the topic.

 

Speaking of topic, Farage´s point of view on Greece, no matter what i think of him, i agree:

https://youtu.be/94UcyJnRcGU

 

 

You seem to be in a rush to get my responses? I just want to understand a little about what motivates you, most people ignore this question and I don't know why? Whats wrong about admitting what nationality you are 

 

Thanks for responding by the way, I just have a few more questions about your view on the EU

 

What do you mean they took away your freedom? And how do you feel they lied ?

 

 

Oh whatever, don´t answer at all, i don´t think you can make a reasonable answer, at last none that i can´t debunk anyway. I don´t care.

 

I said autonomy and not freedom. I allready explained on how having not your own currency effectly hinders your own ability to influence your economy. I also allready told you that we get 70% of new laws directly from the EU (made by not elected politicans). A lot of this laws are stupidly worse what we had before and cost us a fortune AND have a negative impact (for our farming sector as an example). So here we are, a consitution that overrules ours, laws from a different source we have to realize and a currency we can´t control. Per definition that makes us (and any other EU country..well maybe not Germany because they influence the EU to much) a vassal state, subordinate to the EU.

 

There is NOTHING good about this.

 

I didn´t say feeling. I said they lied. Thats a factual statement. All promises on how we benefit from the EU turned out to have the opposite effect and there is no way they couldn´t know that, at last about some aspects. What however was a clear lie, is that during the campaign for the EU accession it was promised all the time that we would have and keep our currency and would NOT get the Euro. Sometime after the referendum (one that was called faul by a lot of lawmakers) they turned around and forced us into the Euro currency without any referendum basicly saying "well we voted for the EU now we get the Euro as well".

 

That is lying and nothing else. And i applaud everyone who tries to get out of this failed project and gets back his independence just like Farage said.

 

 

Thank you for responding, now I understand, I don't share your view but other people have mentioned similar criticism about the EU so there is clearly some validity to it 

 

Sorry to ask you to repeat your questions but what would you like to know from me? 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting

 

But your views on Greece are mistaken.

If you can prove it, then go ahead. As it is, I've provided data to support the view that austerity doesn't deal with unemployment and have argued that short-term issues, such as unemployment, should be addressed and solved before long-term issues. In response, you've provided nothing to support your statements. It should be pretty clear you won't be able to convince me with emotional arguments so if you want to prove me wrong you'll have to prove that austerity measures will result in a more stable economy than stimulation when dealing with a depressed economy.

I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133.

My views on Greece are influenced by the evidence I've seen, not a long-winded New Zealand resident or a sassy bloke who is too leet for me. This may surprise you, but I developed most of my opinions outside of these forums.

They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased.  Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond?

And a middle-aged libertarian who likes to fight in tunnels or a pro-EU Finn are not going to be biased? How so?

 

And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around 

So my views should be determined by the state I was born and not by independent thought?

 

Fair enough, you don't seem  to be influenced by others and you did your own research so I take that back

 

I think we have reached an impasse on this debate around the whole unemployment relevance. Its fundamental to our views on austerity  and one of us has to either agree its relevant or recognize its not. And I'm not going to admit its relevant in the context  of the austerity metrics so lets just agree to disagree and engage in the next one

So you're unable to back up your opinions with facts. Good to know.

 

No as I said and linked earlier that page from BBC  which was facts that  unemployment was not part of austerity 

 

 

And lets not end a debate feeling the need to insult someone, this is not the GG thread

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So your argument is that unemployment doesn't matter? And that states shouldn't consider it when implementing austerity? And we should consider austerity a success despite continued high levels of debt because banks are doing better now?

 

Because that's the most insane thing posted on these forums including romance threads and oby.

[Elerond]

 

If you look every governing institution in EU is such that its formed by democratic process or by another institution that is formed by democratic process. 

 

 

Yes, but the laws coming from the EU are not made by elected personal. If they conflict with the rulings of your country, you still have to bow to them because EU´s constitution overrules that of the nations. Not to mention the pressure they use. Examples, blocking south-stream effectly costing our country millions if not more and many jobs, or trying to pressure Hungary into a different energy market despite their contracts with Rosatom. Or overruling our exceptional good laws on animal protection, throwing us back years in that field.

 

 

Laws coming from EU are made by European Parliament, which is elected by citizens of member states of EU and Council of Ministers (which is formed from members of National Governments of member states of EU, National Governments are elected by National Parliaments which are elected by citizens of individual states which parliament they are). European Commission, which is elected by European Parliament, proposes laws to European Parliament and Council of Ministers. Council of Ministers have ability to stop any law they don't like (of course this don't mean that majority of EU's member states can't decide something that minority object, but that is realities of democratic decision making [there is also blocking minority system where at least four member states with 35% of EU's population can block legislation approved by majority vote {55% of member states and at least representing 65% of total population, or 72% of member states and covering at least 65% of total population if they aren't acting on proposal from European Commission}]). 

 

EDIT: And it probably should be pointed that anything that comes from EU is not really law before National Parliaments have adjusted them and approved them, although if member state don't change their laws according to what is agreed, then European Commission can start action to resolve situation if this don't lead agreement then European Commission will start infringement procedure which is at end resolved by European Union's Court of Justice (Of course member state can decide to leave union if they find it decision to be too much against their self interests). 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

So your argument is that unemployment doesn't matter? And that states shouldn't consider it when implementing austerity? And we should consider austerity a success despite continued high levels of debt because banks are doing better now?

 

Because that's the most insane thing posted on these forums including romance threads and oby.

I can't repeat our past discussion so I'll just summarize it 

 

• You believe that a high employment rate should be considered as a factor of failure of austerity 
• People like myself, the IMF and ECB don't consider that a serious factor towards measuring the progress and success of austerity
• You can see counties like Ireland and Spain making progress and meeting certain austerity objectives, there economies grow. This is recognized by the global economic community ( I posted links )
• These countries are seen as having  done something positive around the restructuring of there economies 
• You dismiss this as you say they still have high unemployment rates 
• We are at an impasse 

[Raithe]

 

 

If you look every governing institution in EU is such that its formed by democratic process or by another institution that is formed by democratic process. 

 

 

Yes, but the laws coming from the EU are not made by elected personal. If they conflict with the rulings of your country, you still have to bow to them because EU´s constitution overrules that of the nations. Not to mention the pressure they use. Examples, blocking south-stream effectly costing our country millions if not more and many jobs, or trying to pressure Hungary into a different energy market despite their contracts with Rosatom. Or overruling our exceptional good laws on animal protection, throwing us back years in that field.

 

 

Laws coming from EU are made by European Parliament, which is elected by citizens of member states of EU and Council of Ministers (which is formed from members of National Governments of member states of EU, National Governments are elected by National Parliaments which are elected by citizens of individual states which parliament they are). European Commission, which is elected by European Parliament, proposes laws to European Parliament and Council of Ministers. Council of Ministers have ability to stop any law they don't like (of course this don't mean that majority of EU's member states can't decide something that minority object, but that is realities of democratic decision making [there is also blocking minority system where at least four member states with 35% of EU's population can block legislation approved by majority vote {55% of member states and at least representing 65% of total population, or 72% of member states and covering at least 65% of total population if they aren't acting on proposal from European Commission}]). 

 

EDIT: And it probably should be pointed that anything that comes from EU is not really law before National Parliaments have adjusted them and approved them, although if member state don't change their laws according to what is agreed, then European Commission can start action to resolve situation if this don't lead agreement then European Commission will start infringement procedure which is at end resolved by European Union's Court of Justice (Of course member state can decide to leave union if they find it decision to be too much against their self interests). 

 

 

In other words, it's basically the bureaucracy that decides everything, and individual votes have no actual say in how it all runs.