white march news

[Nakia]

People do like player houses.  Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold.    IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes.  Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower.  

 

Let us not  confuse "hate" of strongholds with dissatisfaction with what OE did with the one included in PoE.  It is my opinion that they either did too much or did too little.

[Gromnir]

People do like player houses.  Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold.    IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes.  Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower.  

 

Let us not  confuse "hate" of strongholds with dissatisfaction with what OE did with the one included in PoE.  It is my opinion that they either did too much or did too little.

yeah, based on obsidian posts on the subject, we suspect that their plans for the stronghold were a bit more grandiose.  the claim that implementation issues limited the stronghold development suggests to us that the obsidians blundered and then had to make hard choices as to how to actual implement the stronghold.  regardless, we keep coming back to the zero-sum problem.  most features can be improved if more resources is invested to make them better.  however, this were an Optional feature and it is reasonable and rational to decide that optional features gets a different level o' consideration when resource allocation is being considered-- they get less. given the relative reduced priority o' an optional feature that many folks dislike, which resources shoulda' been stripped from other existing poe features/quests to improve the stronghold, and how?

 

could the stronghold have been made more essential by making it a greater quest loci?  sure, but again, it is optional and frequent disliked, so having additional quests tied to the stronghold is a questionable proposition.  

 

no doubt the developers were considering any number o' ways to improve the stronghold, and am betting that if feedback produced a suggestion that required little to no additional resource allocation to implement, the developers would be ecstatic to hear it.

 

*shrug*

 

we expected more from the stronghold.  is all on obsidian that the stronghold were forgettable.  however, am also recognizing that many/most suggestions for improvement o' the stronghold were not practical, reasonable or genuine helpful.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[gkathellar]

perhaps you confused sawyer with avellone

In fairness to Luckmann, that was me. I did that. I may have been remembering incorrectly, or just conflating TVTropes hearsay with reality. Not sure.

 

(Wasn't there some joke during the kickstarter where one stretch goal was, "Sawyer will write romances," and then the next one immediately after that was, "Sawyer won't write romances?" Am I just making that up?)

 

 

 

"Not a big fan of romances. I did four in Alpha Protocol because Chris Parker, our project director, demanded it because he thinks romance apparently is easy, or MAYBE it’s because he wanted to be an **** and give me tons of them to do because I LOVE them so much (although to be honest, I think he felt it was more in keeping with the spy genre to have so many romances, even if I did ask to downscope them). At least I got to do the “hatemance” version of most of them, which makes it a little more palatable.

 

"Also, the only reason the romance bits in Mask of the Betrayer worked was because George Ziets helped me with them since he was able to describe what love is to me and explain how it works (I almost asked for a PowerPoint presentation). It seems like a messy, complicated process, not unlike a waterbirth. Don’t even get me started on the kissing aspects, which is revolting because people EAT with their mouths. Bleh.

 

"So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise. Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after."

 

Okay, that's a great quote. Much obliged for plucking it from the interwebs.

 

People do like player houses.  Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold.    IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes.  Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower. 

 

A little off-topic, but really, nothing disappointed me more than the promised "player house" just becoming part of the stronghold as Brighthollow. I was expecting the player house to be in Defiance Bay or something, as the local residence/mansion/summer home for your up-and-coming lordling (which your Watcher really should be, just by proxy of owning this ancient Aedyran keep and the lands around it).

 

As much as I love OE's people, the whole stronghold could have used more Bioware-style expertise in its design. Caed Nua should, ideally, feel like the player's home - the Ebon Hawk being a fairly good example of that. It just goes to the ways different types of experience and different skill sets play out.

[Lord_Mord]

Why don't we just wait for the expansion? Obsidian promised something and it did not make it into the game. But it seems as if they try to repair it. Yes, that makes it easier for the stronghold haters to say that they were right and strongholds are boring and useless. But even the haters liked the BG2 strongholds. The stronghold quests in BG2 were not very complex, some of the strongholds were boring as hell and all of them had very stupid management mechanisms that did cost you a bit of money sometimes and made you a bit of money sometimes. But in the end it didn't matter, because you were filthy rich anyway. Sounds like PoE for me. The only thing that made them fun, was a little bit of story woven around them. Maybe that is, what we will get ... soon.

[Gromnir]

 

perhaps you confused sawyer with avellone

In fairness to Luckmann, that was me. I did that. I may have been remembering incorrectly, or just conflating TVTropes hearsay with reality. Not sure.

 

your error doesn't let luck off the hook although the error both o' you perpetuated is common.  am not certain how it got started, but it is not unusual for folks here and at codex and even on the older bio boards to accuse josh o' hating romances.  is the internet being the internet?  josh says he doesn't like how other games do romance and that becomes josh hates romance.  

 

our personal recollection is that josh pov were similar to Gromnir (a rarity) in this instance in that we both like romance, which is precisely why we is disappointed with typical crpg implementation.  many obsidian developers has noted that romance takes more effort than folks appear to believe, and that writing crpg is a fair bit different than writing short stories and novels.  to us, bioware-style crpg romances invariably feel rushed and immature as they is necessarily tangential and limited.  complete a full romance story arc in a half-dozen or so dialogue encounters?  even so, while you can find quotes from Gromnir that we hate crpg romance, you will be hard-pressed to find any such from josh, and even if you did, that would still not be same as saying, "Sawyer hates romances himself."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65107-no-romances-confirmed/page-6?do=findComment&comment=1417049

 

is hard to see the hate. regardless, would be cowardly to blame on you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 18, 2015 by Gromnir

[TT1]

 

 

A little off-topic, but really, nothing disappointed me more than the promised "player house" just becoming part of the stronghold as Brighthollow. I was expecting the player house to be in Defiance Bay or something, as the local residence/mansion/summer home for your up-and-coming lordling (which your Watcher really should be, just by proxy of owning this ancient Aedyran keep and the lands around it).

 

As much as I love OE's people, the whole stronghold could have used more Bioware-style expertise in its design. Caed Nua should, ideally, feel like the player's home - the Ebon Hawk being a fairly good example of that. It just goes to the ways different types of experience and different skill sets play out.

 

The problem with the stronghold, besides the fact it was designed by a blind monkey and look like an abandoned factory on the outskirts of São Paulo, is that it serves no purpose besides bonuses to sleep. As the crafting system is not implemented, you can not use it as in Oblivion, to improve skills, build weapons and equipment. There are no are quests associated with it. The fact that you are the owner of a HUGE amount of land is completely ignored. In fact, the player controls the ONLY ACCESS to the right side of the map. However, nothing seems to happen. There is no living soul on its territory, no peasant, soldiers, roads, security ... nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

The fact that the player home have been placed next to the stronghold is simple and pure laziness of designers. Probably there was not much money available and someone just suggested putting the house there, since it was also a promise in the kickstarter campaign. And again, like crafting was not implemented, there's no point rebuilding brighthollow heart, lab or forge.

 

There is a thread in TTON forum called "What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity" and there are many sincere and real criticism there. This guy here made some excellent points: https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?p=150814#p150814

 

 

PoE, despite other parts, good or bad, had a sin of making stronghold - useful, but empty and unimpressive. IMO, of course. But there's was distinct feeling of "I should move it faster past this location" for me. Consider everything I wrote below, as nitpicking, maybe too harsh for some of you, but not in a way "And because of that - PoE sucks". Not at all, it's just, what I think, wasn't that satisfying and might've been done better. But I don't know their focus, what they had in terms of priorities, funds, man-power and time on this.

 

1.1. I thought that was Raedrick's one, we'll have, at first. It is more complex and interesting, has platforms, three different levels outside and three different levels inside (there's a dungeons), lord's room, a tale, how you heroically got it.

1.2. Instead we got Caed Nua, which has it's pluses, but is not that great. It's was decent, but Raedrick's was great and player shouldn't compare one thing part of the game to another and ask himself "Why didn't we got this?". Keep in mind, that everything below is concerned of Caed Nua, I have no idea, how to substitute one with another, just pointning, that it would've been great in my opinion.

1.3. Caed Nua were given to a player too easy and too quick. It weren't earned, we weren't took it over themselves, as part of interesting plot. One conversation with former holder is not enough to feel it, apparently.

 

2.1. Stronghold mechanics was made, but it had no intertwined connections neither to the main plot nor secondary quests. And while Stronghold has Endless Paths, it isn't tied to them directly. What you make with Stronghold stays in Stronghold.

 

 

 

2.2.1. I don't have anything against whole magical telepathic thing, in general. It was supposed to make player's life easier, after all, and it did. But ithink, it would be more engaging, if there was a few quests to make initial rebuild and, take a few walks back and forth, recruit at least few NPCs to inhabit it. Reawekened magical throne, after few quests might've gave us a spare of not returning every time and send our orders to living senechal. Pacing here is a key.

2.2.2. Stronghold would've won from taking these simplifications further, though. If, there is nothing to ask, it was possibly convenient to make orders from merchants from a Stronghold interface.

2.2.3. Add an option to rest without going to second floor of Brackenbury, each time!

2.2.3. Make manual resolve of attack a travel option, while you aren't indoors or a part of major plot (Like Defiance Bay after *SPOILER*).

2.2.4. A quest loot and herbs might go directly into the stash. Special subspace, few clicks and it's in the stash with other stuff.

2.2.5. Et cetera. Crucial here is part, that automatization system, if you already have it should help you to defeat repetitiveness and keep good, useful parts available, while other things is wearing out.

 

2.3. There is a reason, why I didn't liked to traverse Caed Nua after some moment. Repetitiveness without much reward. Do you know, what might make it better. Bunch of NPCs. Alive. With various levels of fleshing out. Probably, Dragon Age 3 spoiled me as Devil himself, but there is so much to learn from Skyhold and Heaven, even if you despise that game.

 

2.3.1. A living senechal to counter niceness and idealistism of our steward. I mean, someone, who can check workers job, have a hands, body and image. Some mini-story between mundane senechal and magical senechal. Or maybe, just executive, Anything. Details do matter.

2.3.2. Few guards, even without badass army and barracks to great you once in a while and warn you about special guests.

2.3.3. Random guests, merchants and guards is soulless husks. Almost any merchant everywhere has at least something memorable abou themselves, whether is was information or quest... But it made them at least somewhat special. In Stronghold... not. For example, herbs merchant, who asks to fetch dragon eggs. Why couldn't we recruit her? What's a point standing in a far, far village all the time, if we can effectively make a Stronghold, that we visit again and again. It's about making connections with both protagonist and player.

2.3.4. Other cute little details. Like, who's gardener? Do we have a servants? Do they have a story about their previous life or kids? Who's in charge of Black Meabow? Who cooks? Who hosts a traveler?

2.3.5. Damn, you might've put some of that backer's strangers, who had nothing, aside from soul story, who might've randomly stay here each time (aside from their original placing).

2.3.6. Overall, in more dense and short game, than AAA-title, having a massive Stronghold with high levels of abstractness is not a best approach.

 

2.3. Dashboard (news feed, log, whatever). You know missed opportunity, when you see it. It's a great tool of storytelling, actually. You don't need to put as much effort, as in NPCs to make a place more alive, coilorful... Couple of servants got married. Son of saved peasant came to become a guard. A holiday is about to celebrated. Donate? (y/n). A holiday celebration story. Some reccuring story about specific NPCs, you might meat closer to the end of the game, or never at all. Quest or piece of loot somewhere, you might fishing out of a rumor. Something bad. Something funny. Something tragic. Something romantic. Something, that makes you feel anything about damn mount of pixels on a screen. Think about it.

 

2.4. Quests and random events once more. I don't mind trashing through mobs in Endless Paths. I don't mind EP of CN has more battles, than a story. But at least, it had a story. I don't mind sending unused party members to their own adventure, though war table missions in DAI was better decorated, than this (see previous paragraph). I don't mind random merchants and guests, but why are they... dull? Head hunter missions is fun, but it's not a quests. Bunch of strange guys, who mobbed you on a road is not a quest. Like, there is no point of prison, if it has use only for... four characters? Hm... The way it was in a game, wasn't a best one. And, as I said. It would be fun, if having done some quests might've influence othar parts of a game, making it easier and more interesting. Secondary quests, main storyline quests, [stronghold] or [%Specific Building%] dialogue options as part of recruiting, intimidation or diplomacy. Major spoilers (2-3 Chapter) ahead: [i am the Watcher Lord of Caed Nua(100% Recostruction)] "You all know me well. This man was posessed and killed a Duke against his will. Stop this madness, immediately!"

It would have been much more organic simply delete Caed Nua and put Raedric Hold as the stronghold. Just put the Endless Path under the Raedric Hold and everyone would have been happy.

Edited July 18, 2015 by TT1

[gkathellar]

It would have been much more organic simply delete CAEd Naked and put Raedric Hold as the stronghold. Just put the Endless Path under the Raedric Hold and everyone would have been happy.

Might have been interesting. It certainly would have given you a greater attachment to Gilded Vale (oh hello town over which I am lord). And the interplay between (or possibly fusion of?) Maerwald and Raedric could have had a lot of implications for the PC Watcher.

 

Oh well. It is what it is.

[Luckmann]

 

 

our recollection (edit: confirmed after reviewing the SA posts) is that josh only brought up romance in context o' strongholds to indicate polarization.  were a recognition that those folks who dislike strongholds and romances disliked those features to a significant degree.

 

HA! Good Fun!

But shouldn't there be a degree of parity? Sure, the people that really hate strongholds, really hate strongholds, and those that hate romances really hate romances, but at the same time, I'm not seeing how the two compare to eachother as issues.

 

Romances are significantly polarizing and was excluded under the rationale that they are very hard to do well, and have a lot of people that dislike them for various reasons (mostly because they are hard to do well).

 

Strongholds are not nearly as polarizing, and I've yet to be in a discussion where even someone opposing strongholds cannot find some common ground (like Fardragon, even if we don't necessarily agree; I would love to see what he doesn't want, if done well), are in the game (the most important difference), and I've yet to see a significant number of people throwing fits over it. They are also not terribly hard to do at least acceptably well (BGII, DA:O:A).

 

And no matter what, like I said, the most important difference is that there's a Stronghold in PoE, but no Romances, if either is in the game, same as any other part of the game, it's inexcusable to come afterwards and brush off the issues with an existing facet of the game with the argument that some amount of people somewhere, doesn't like that existing facet, to some degree, as a concept.

 

They simply don't compare as issues, and in the event that they did, if either or neither was in the game, they still should be treated as important facets of an overall whole (or be disregarded completely).

 

again, the specific context in which romances were analogized to strongholds by sawyer were extreme limited.

 

 

"You're downplaying the aversion that people have to strongholds, specifically. If there's a "I hate big dungeons" bloc of significant size, I'm unaware of them. Stronghold aversion seems more comparable to romance aversion."

 

you disagree?  fine, but again, your basis is feel and extending the comparison is unwarranted. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It's no more feel than Sawyer himself; he says that someone is downplaying the aversion people have to strongholds, suggesting that there's a significant aversion towards strongholds. He then alludes to size, saying that he's unaware of a significantly sized bloc of people with an aversion towards big dungeons, and then compares stronghold aversion and romance aversion.

 

Meanwhile, on planet Earth, I think that that comparison is odd as all hell, with my previous points in mind. This is not rocket science, Strawnir. It is not "feel". When was there last a major disagreement on the forums, comparable in any way, over the concept of Strongholds?

 

Not on any level is Stronghold aversion comparable to Romance aversion in the number of people or the level of aversion, nor in relevance, given that one is in the game, the other is not.

[Gromnir]

again, josh has sources we don't.  actual player behavior data?  at the very least he gots observations o' game testers to be using.  you got feel.

 

*sigh*

 

wanna go off on a largely irrelevant tangent, again?  be our guest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Luckmann]

again, josh has sources we don't.  actual player behavior data?  at the very least he gots observations o' game testers to be using.  you got feel.

 

*sigh*

 

wanna go off on a largely irrelevant tangent, again?  be our guest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No, what we've got is experience on these boards, Gromnir. What you've got is feel that Sawyer supposedly has sources we don't. Or not.

 

If you had an argument, besides trying to deflect, and to belittle people, you would've made it by now. Show us the discussions. I've seen none on it here. No huge arguments. I mean, come on, the issue of romances is everywhere. Multiple threads. In the comment fields. On Reddit. On the Bioware Social Site. Here. Over and over again.

 

Strongholds? Give me a break, man.

[Gromnir]

 

A little off-topic, but really, nothing disappointed me more than the promised "player house" just becoming part of the stronghold as Brighthollow. I was expecting the player house to be in Defiance Bay or something, as the local residence/mansion/summer home for your up-and-coming lordling (which your Watcher really should be, just by proxy of owning this ancient Aedyran keep and the lands around it).

 

As much as I love OE's people, the whole stronghold could have used more Bioware-style expertise in its design. Caed Nua should, ideally, feel like the player's home - the Ebon Hawk being a fairly good example of that. It just goes to the ways different types of experience and different skill sets play out.

The problem with the stronghold, besides the fact it was designed by a blind monkey and look like an abandoned factory on the outskirts of São Paulo, is that it serves no purpose besides bonuses to sleep. As the crafting system is not implemented, you can not use it as in Oblivion, to improve skills, build weapons and equipment. There are no are quests associated with it. The fact that you are the owner of a HUGE amount of land is completely ignored. In fact, the player controls the ONLY ACCESS to the right side of the map. However, nothing seems to happen. There is no living soul on its territory, no peasant, soldiers, roads, security ... nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

The fact that the player home have been placed next to the stronghold is simple and pure laziness of designers. Probably there was not much money available and someone just suggested putting the house there, since it was also a promise in the kickstarter campaign. And again, like crafting was not implemented, there's no point rebuilding brighthollow heart, lab or forge.

 

There is a thread in TTON forum called "What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity" and there are many sincere and real criticism there. This guy here made some excellent points: https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?p=150814#p150814

 

 

PoE, despite other parts, good or bad, had a sin of making stronghold - useful, but empty and unimpressive. IMO, of course. But there's was distinct feeling of "I should move it faster past this location" for me. Consider everything I wrote below, as nitpicking, maybe too harsh for some of you, but not in a way "And because of that - PoE sucks". Not at all, it's just, what I think, wasn't that satisfying and might've been done better. But I don't know their focus, what they had in terms of priorities, funds, man-power and time on this.

 

1.1. I thought that was Raedrick's one, we'll have, at first. It is more complex and interesting, has platforms, three different levels outside and three different levels inside (there's a dungeons), lord's room, a tale, how you heroically got it.

1.2. Instead we got Caed Nua, which has it's pluses, but is not that great. It's was decent, but Raedrick's was great and player shouldn't compare one thing part of the game to another and ask himself "Why didn't we got this?". Keep in mind, that everything below is concerned of Caed Nua, I have no idea, how to substitute one with another, just pointning, that it would've been great in my opinion.

1.3. Caed Nua were given to a player too easy and too quick. It weren't earned, we weren't took it over themselves, as part of interesting plot. One conversation with former holder is not enough to feel it, apparently.

 

2.1. Stronghold mechanics was made, but it had no intertwined connections neither to the main plot nor secondary quests. And while Stronghold has Endless Paths, it isn't tied to them directly. What you make with Stronghold stays in Stronghold.

 

 

 

2.2.1. I don't have anything against whole magical telepathic thing, in general. It was supposed to make player's life easier, after all, and it did. But ithink, it would be more engaging, if there was a few quests to make initial rebuild and, take a few walks back and forth, recruit at least few NPCs to inhabit it. Reawekened magical throne, after few quests might've gave us a spare of not returning every time and send our orders to living senechal. Pacing here is a key.

2.2.2. Stronghold would've won from taking these simplifications further, though. If, there is nothing to ask, it was possibly convenient to make orders from merchants from a Stronghold interface.

2.2.3. Add an option to rest without going to second floor of Brackenbury, each time!

2.2.3. Make manual resolve of attack a travel option, while you aren't indoors or a part of major plot (Like Defiance Bay after *SPOILER*).

2.2.4. A quest loot and herbs might go directly into the stash. Special subspace, few clicks and it's in the stash with other stuff.

2.2.5. Et cetera. Crucial here is part, that automatization system, if you already have it should help you to defeat repetitiveness and keep good, useful parts available, while other things is wearing out.

 

2.3. There is a reason, why I didn't liked to traverse Caed Nua after some moment. Repetitiveness without much reward. Do you know, what might make it better. Bunch of NPCs. Alive. With various levels of fleshing out. Probably, Dragon Age 3 spoiled me as Devil himself, but there is so much to learn from Skyhold and Heaven, even if you despise that game.

 

2.3.1. A living senechal to counter niceness and idealistism of our steward. I mean, someone, who can check workers job, have a hands, body and image. Some mini-story between mundane senechal and magical senechal. Or maybe, just executive, Anything. Details do matter.

2.3.2. Few guards, even without badass army and barracks to great you once in a while and warn you about special guests.

2.3.3. Random guests, merchants and guards is soulless husks. Almost any merchant everywhere has at least something memorable abou themselves, whether is was information or quest... But it made them at least somewhat special. In Stronghold... not. For example, herbs merchant, who asks to fetch dragon eggs. Why couldn't we recruit her? What's a point standing in a far, far village all the time, if we can effectively make a Stronghold, that we visit again and again. It's about making connections with both protagonist and player.

2.3.4. Other cute little details. Like, who's gardener? Do we have a servants? Do they have a story about their previous life or kids? Who's in charge of Black Meabow? Who cooks? Who hosts a traveler?

2.3.5. Damn, you might've put some of that backer's strangers, who had nothing, aside from soul story, who might've randomly stay here each time (aside from their original placing).

2.3.6. Overall, in more dense and short game, than AAA-title, having a massive Stronghold with high levels of abstractness is not a best approach.

 

2.3. Dashboard (news feed, log, whatever). You know missed opportunity, when you see it. It's a great tool of storytelling, actually. You don't need to put as much effort, as in NPCs to make a place more alive, coilorful... Couple of servants got married. Son of saved peasant came to become a guard. A holiday is about to celebrated. Donate? (y/n). A holiday celebration story. Some reccuring story about specific NPCs, you might meat closer to the end of the game, or never at all. Quest or piece of loot somewhere, you might fishing out of a rumor. Something bad. Something funny. Something tragic. Something romantic. Something, that makes you feel anything about damn mount of pixels on a screen. Think about it.

 

2.4. Quests and random events once more. I don't mind trashing through mobs in Endless Paths. I don't mind EP of CN has more battles, than a story. But at least, it had a story. I don't mind sending unused party members to their own adventure, though war table missions in DAI was better decorated, than this (see previous paragraph). I don't mind random merchants and guests, but why are they... dull? Head hunter missions is fun, but it's not a quests. Bunch of strange guys, who mobbed you on a road is not a quest. Like, there is no point of prison, if it has use only for... four characters? Hm... The way it was in a game, wasn't a best one. And, as I said. It would be fun, if having done some quests might've influence othar parts of a game, making it easier and more interesting. Secondary quests, main storyline quests, [stronghold] or [%Specific Building%] dialogue options as part of recruiting, intimidation or diplomacy. Major spoilers (2-3 Chapter) ahead: [i am the Watcher Lord of Caed Nua(100% Recostruction)] "You all know me well. This man was posessed and killed a Duke against his will. Stop this madness, immediately!"

It would have been much more organic simply delete Caed Nua and put Raedric Hold as the stronghold. Just put the Endless Path under the Raedric Hold and everyone would have been happy.

 

a few o' the suggestions, such as having additional quests linked to the stronghold, were already rejected with reasonable explanations. perhaps you do not agree, but the reasoning were sound enough. other suggestions is, well, to be fair, petty or already addressed.  example: we can now sleep anywhere within bounds o' the stronghold.  most significant, however, is the resource demands.  is zero-sum.  so, pull out the old red marker and tell us what you would wanna kill in poe to make these other stronghold suggestions possible.

 

obsidian did not build a great stronghold.  bad on them.  nevertheless, a laundry list o' alternative features is not all that helpful insofar as fixing. 

 

 

 

again, josh has sources we don't.  actual player behavior data?  at the very least he gots observations o' game testers to be using.  you got feel.

 

*sigh*

 

wanna go off on a largely irrelevant tangent, again?  be our guest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No, what we've got is experience on these boards, Gromnir. What you've got is feel that Sawyer supposedly has sources we don't. Or not.

 

 

HA!

 

okie dokie.  regardless o' what you think obsidian gots, all you have is feel.  you got impressions based on the board feedback you has witnessed?  great.  is just feel. is emotional.  is gut-level.  so, even if all obsidian had were feel, why should they listen to your gut as 'posed to the combined Feel o' cain and feargus and sawyer and a host o' other obsidians who no doubt had input?

 

wacky stuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

(edit: apparent too much fun)

Edited July 18, 2015 by Gromnir

[Nakia]

How a game feels is very important.  It can be technically perfect but feel cold, uninspiring, just an exercise in mechanics.  Anothr game may not be as technically perfect but excite the feelings of the player, make the player want to achieve things, do things, feel important, feel angry, feel sad, feel caring or feel evil.  That is the final test of a game.  Our feelings do differ which is why we have disagreements and different outlooks.

 

Both the mechanics of game and the feelings of a game are important.

[TT1]

I find intriguing those who defend the stronghold is optional for the fact that it is so bad that you can just avoid it altogether.

 

It truly is optional, as all companions are also, but they all influence the endgame, right? In fact, we do not know if these options will be exported to your savegame to a sequel. So... optional but not so much.

[Gromnir]

 

I find intriguing those who defend the stronghold is optional for the fact that it is so bad that you can just avoid it altogether.

 

It truly is optional, as all companions are also, but they all influence the endgame, right? In fact, we do not know if these options will be exported to your savegame to a sequel. So... optional but not so much.

 

am not understanding. optional nature o' the stronghold is not an excuse for it being bad. the fact that it is optional is the reason why adding additional quests to the stronghold is a poor idea from obsidian pov.   optional nature is also the reason why once it were determined that stronghold implementation were not working as envisioned, there were a finite pool o' additional resources from which to draw from to improve the stronghold.  while a stronghold were a stretch goal, its implementation were problematic.  how much resource allocation could be reasonable for an optional feature that some folks disliked and avoided?  so again, pull out the red marker and cut.  show developers what you would cut from existing poe to make the stronghold better.

 

as for the companions,  none is needed to complete the game, and in point o' fact, we know that some rather intriguing content for durance and grieving mother were cut.  heck, for all we know, content were cut from durance and grieving mother so that the stronghold could be improved to its current state.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

btw, the expansion offers an ideal situation for measuring the value o' stronghold improvements, yes?  after all, the developers have very limited resources with which to work.  so, the hard questions regarding which features and content is most vital becomes glaring.  in the expansion, rest bonuses from the stronghold are being improved, significantly.  we expect other minor number changes.   but the stronghold is what it is.  take the stronghold as it is today, and make hard choices regarding what to improve. is exactly the problem obsidian were facing once they ran into implementation issues in the core game, but the expansion makes the tough choices stark and raw, yes?  what should the developers sacrifice insofar as new content in the expansion to fix an optional feature that a noteworthy number o' folks seeming dislike altogether?

 

yeah, when/if a sequel is made, we expect that serious changes is gonna occur... which is exact what josh has already said.  the back to the drawing board  ideas is gonna be much useful at that point.  the obsidians has now done candlekeep in a couple nwn games and they had a base/stronghold in kotor2.  along with poe, the obsidian folks have a considerable amount o' experience with strongholds, and they is gonna have painful intimate familiarity with unity.  

 

but changes to the stronghold now?  we want stronghold changes too, but what will we sacrifice, if anything?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Fardragon]

People do like player houses.  Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold.    IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes.  Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower.  

 

Let us not  confuse "hate" of strongholds with dissatisfaction with what OE did with the one included in PoE.  It is my opinion that they either did too much or did too little.

I think "people like" is a sweeping generalisation.

 

I've played a number of games with "player housing" and I've never found any enjoyment in any of them.

 

If I'm playing a computer game, I want to be out adventuring. If I want to play house, my real world house needs plenty doing to it.

[Nakia]

 

People do like player houses.  Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold.    IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes.  Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower.  

 

Let us not  confuse "hate" of strongholds with dissatisfaction with what OE did with the one included in PoE.  It is my opinion that they either did too much or did too little.

I think "people like" is a sweeping generalisation.

 

I've played a number of games with "player housing" and I've never found any enjoyment in any of them.

 

If I'm playing a computer game, I want to be out adventuring. If I want to play house, my real world house needs plenty doing to it.

 

My statement was a generalization and did not mean all people like player houses.   They probably have more value in games such as the TES ones where you can display things you have collected, have an alchemists table and/or a enchantment table.    They can be a farm or mage's tower.  They are popular mods.   Sometimes very simple and sometimes very palatial.  In the Oblivion game I had a mod that had a castle in Kvatch and another mod where I could have numerous companions.  It was a home for the companions not traveling with me.  We could even have dinner parties and we had a dancing boy or girl.  Lots of fun.

[Luckmann]

 

 

A little off-topic, but really, nothing disappointed me more than the promised "player house" just becoming part of the stronghold as Brighthollow. I was expecting the player house to be in Defiance Bay or something, as the local residence/mansion/summer home for your up-and-coming lordling (which your Watcher really should be, just by proxy of owning this ancient Aedyran keep and the lands around it).

 

As much as I love OE's people, the whole stronghold could have used more Bioware-style expertise in its design. Caed Nua should, ideally, feel like the player's home - the Ebon Hawk being a fairly good example of that. It just goes to the ways different types of experience and different skill sets play out.

The problem with the stronghold, besides the fact it was designed by a blind monkey and look like an abandoned factory on the outskirts of São Paulo, is that it serves no purpose besides bonuses to sleep. As the crafting system is not implemented, you can not use it as in Oblivion, to improve skills, build weapons and equipment. There are no are quests associated with it. The fact that you are the owner of a HUGE amount of land is completely ignored. In fact, the player controls the ONLY ACCESS to the right side of the map. However, nothing seems to happen. There is no living soul on its territory, no peasant, soldiers, roads, security ... nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

The fact that the player home have been placed next to the stronghold is simple and pure laziness of designers. Probably there was not much money available and someone just suggested putting the house there, since it was also a promise in the kickstarter campaign. And again, like crafting was not implemented, there's no point rebuilding brighthollow heart, lab or forge.

 

There is a thread in TTON forum called "What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity" and there are many sincere and real criticism there. This guy here made some excellent points: https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?p=150814#p150814

 

 

PoE, despite other parts, good or bad, had a sin of making stronghold - useful, but empty and unimpressive. IMO, of course. But there's was distinct feeling of "I should move it faster past this location" for me. Consider everything I wrote below, as nitpicking, maybe too harsh for some of you, but not in a way "And because of that - PoE sucks". Not at all, it's just, what I think, wasn't that satisfying and might've been done better. But I don't know their focus, what they had in terms of priorities, funds, man-power and time on this.

 

1.1. I thought that was Raedrick's one, we'll have, at first. It is more complex and interesting, has platforms, three different levels outside and three different levels inside (there's a dungeons), lord's room, a tale, how you heroically got it.

1.2. Instead we got Caed Nua, which has it's pluses, but is not that great. It's was decent, but Raedrick's was great and player shouldn't compare one thing part of the game to another and ask himself "Why didn't we got this?". Keep in mind, that everything below is concerned of Caed Nua, I have no idea, how to substitute one with another, just pointning, that it would've been great in my opinion.

1.3. Caed Nua were given to a player too easy and too quick. It weren't earned, we weren't took it over themselves, as part of interesting plot. One conversation with former holder is not enough to feel it, apparently.

 

2.1. Stronghold mechanics was made, but it had no intertwined connections neither to the main plot nor secondary quests. And while Stronghold has Endless Paths, it isn't tied to them directly. What you make with Stronghold stays in Stronghold.

 

 

 

2.2.1. I don't have anything against whole magical telepathic thing, in general. It was supposed to make player's life easier, after all, and it did. But ithink, it would be more engaging, if there was a few quests to make initial rebuild and, take a few walks back and forth, recruit at least few NPCs to inhabit it. Reawekened magical throne, after few quests might've gave us a spare of not returning every time and send our orders to living senechal. Pacing here is a key.

2.2.2. Stronghold would've won from taking these simplifications further, though. If, there is nothing to ask, it was possibly convenient to make orders from merchants from a Stronghold interface.

2.2.3. Add an option to rest without going to second floor of Brackenbury, each time!

2.2.3. Make manual resolve of attack a travel option, while you aren't indoors or a part of major plot (Like Defiance Bay after *SPOILER*).

2.2.4. A quest loot and herbs might go directly into the stash. Special subspace, few clicks and it's in the stash with other stuff.

2.2.5. Et cetera. Crucial here is part, that automatization system, if you already have it should help you to defeat repetitiveness and keep good, useful parts available, while other things is wearing out.

 

2.3. There is a reason, why I didn't liked to traverse Caed Nua after some moment. Repetitiveness without much reward. Do you know, what might make it better. Bunch of NPCs. Alive. With various levels of fleshing out. Probably, Dragon Age 3 spoiled me as Devil himself, but there is so much to learn from Skyhold and Heaven, even if you despise that game.

 

2.3.1. A living senechal to counter niceness and idealistism of our steward. I mean, someone, who can check workers job, have a hands, body and image. Some mini-story between mundane senechal and magical senechal. Or maybe, just executive, Anything. Details do matter.

2.3.2. Few guards, even without badass army and barracks to great you once in a while and warn you about special guests.

2.3.3. Random guests, merchants and guards is soulless husks. Almost any merchant everywhere has at least something memorable abou themselves, whether is was information or quest... But it made them at least somewhat special. In Stronghold... not. For example, herbs merchant, who asks to fetch dragon eggs. Why couldn't we recruit her? What's a point standing in a far, far village all the time, if we can effectively make a Stronghold, that we visit again and again. It's about making connections with both protagonist and player.

2.3.4. Other cute little details. Like, who's gardener? Do we have a servants? Do they have a story about their previous life or kids? Who's in charge of Black Meabow? Who cooks? Who hosts a traveler?

2.3.5. Damn, you might've put some of that backer's strangers, who had nothing, aside from soul story, who might've randomly stay here each time (aside from their original placing).

2.3.6. Overall, in more dense and short game, than AAA-title, having a massive Stronghold with high levels of abstractness is not a best approach.

 

2.3. Dashboard (news feed, log, whatever). You know missed opportunity, when you see it. It's a great tool of storytelling, actually. You don't need to put as much effort, as in NPCs to make a place more alive, coilorful... Couple of servants got married. Son of saved peasant came to become a guard. A holiday is about to celebrated. Donate? (y/n). A holiday celebration story. Some reccuring story about specific NPCs, you might meat closer to the end of the game, or never at all. Quest or piece of loot somewhere, you might fishing out of a rumor. Something bad. Something funny. Something tragic. Something romantic. Something, that makes you feel anything about damn mount of pixels on a screen. Think about it.

 

2.4. Quests and random events once more. I don't mind trashing through mobs in Endless Paths. I don't mind EP of CN has more battles, than a story. But at least, it had a story. I don't mind sending unused party members to their own adventure, though war table missions in DAI was better decorated, than this (see previous paragraph). I don't mind random merchants and guests, but why are they... dull? Head hunter missions is fun, but it's not a quests. Bunch of strange guys, who mobbed you on a road is not a quest. Like, there is no point of prison, if it has use only for... four characters? Hm... The way it was in a game, wasn't a best one. And, as I said. It would be fun, if having done some quests might've influence othar parts of a game, making it easier and more interesting. Secondary quests, main storyline quests, [stronghold] or [%Specific Building%] dialogue options as part of recruiting, intimidation or diplomacy. Major spoilers (2-3 Chapter) ahead: [i am the Watcher Lord of Caed Nua(100% Recostruction)] "You all know me well. This man was posessed and killed a Duke against his will. Stop this madness, immediately!"

It would have been much more organic simply delete Caed Nua and put Raedric Hold as the stronghold. Just put the Endless Path under the Raedric Hold and everyone would have been happy.

 

a few o' the suggestions, such as having additional quests linked to the stronghold, were already rejected with reasonable explanations. perhaps you do not agree, but the reasoning were sound enough. other suggestions is, well, to be fair, petty or already addressed. example: we can now sleep anywhere within bounds o' the stronghold. most significant, however, is the resource demands. is zero-sum. so, pull out the old red marker and tell us what you would wanna kill in poe to make these other stronghold suggestions possible.

 

obsidian did not build a great stronghold. bad on them. nevertheless, a laundry list o' alternative features is not all that helpful insofar as fixing.

 

 

 

again, josh has sources we don't. actual player behavior data? at the very least he gots observations o' game testers to be using. you got feel.

 

*sigh*

 

wanna go off on a largely irrelevant tangent, again? be our guest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

No, what we've got is experience on these boards, Gromnir. What you've got is feel that Sawyer supposedly has sources we don't. Or not.

 

HA!

 

okie dokie. regardless o' what you think obsidian gots, all you have is feel. you got impressions based on the board feedback you has witnessed? great. is just feel. is emotional. is gut-level. so, even if all obsidian had were feel, why should they listen to your gut as 'posed to the combined Feel o' cain and feargus and sawyer and a host o' other obsidians who no doubt had input?

 

wacky stuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

(edit: apparent too much fun)

 

So you have a feel about others feels regarding feels, Strawnir?

 

Good stuff.

 

Meanwhile, the forum continues to not care. I'm not sure why you even continue to try to defend Sawyer, when I think practically everyone else is aware of the fact that Romances and Strongholds simply do not compare in the way he suggested.

 

 

People do like player houses. Oblivion has five houses that can be purchased in-game and added a DLC with a stronghold. IModders have made hundreds maybe thousands of player homes. Oh and Oblivion has a Mage's tower.

 

Let us not confuse "hate" of strongholds with dissatisfaction with what OE did with the one included in PoE. It is my opinion that they either did too much or did too little.

I think "people like" is a sweeping generalisation.

 

I've played a number of games with "player housing" and I've never found any enjoyment in any of them.

 

If I'm playing a computer game, I want to be out adventuring. If I want to play house, my real world house needs plenty doing to it.

 

This right here is probably the sharpest critique of Strongholds that have been raised on the forum. My hat is off to you, sir.

 

Personally, I love playing house.

 

Oh, the vitriol in the air is tangible!

 

 

This is clearly a subject so major, so controversial and so divisive it warrants it's own ongoing megathread. Quick! Light the modbeacon!

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[tinysalamander]

Anyone started “cave hating” movement yet? I need to join ASAP.

[Rosveen]

I've seen more vitriol in discussions about arachnophobia than player housing... When can we expect spiders with so poor models that we can barely tell they're spiders at all, saving us from frustration of interacting with something we dislike?

[Eisenheinrich]

I've seen more vitriol in discussions about arachnophobia than player housing... When can we expect spiders with so poor models that we can barely tell they're spiders at all, saving us from frustration of interacting with something we dislike?

 

Well, see Obsidian? THAT's what happens If you tease the community early on for the expansion and fail to deliver in time! Now you got at least 5 pages of boring talk about the stronghold and their mechanics in a thread wich sole purpose should be the discussion 'bout news! 

 

NEWS! 

 

Speaking for myself, I have no strong feelings for the stronghold, neither bad nor good. It's there, I rebuilt the wardens lodge for bounty quests and then some stuff so my tax income is higher than my loss to bandits, and that's about it. Plus: The tune is one of the best in the whole game. 

[anameforobsidian]

It's also worth pointing out that you can rest without going into the Brackenbury.

 

White March and hopefully the next PE need a clearer design direction for the narrative and world, and I think the experience gained from this game will help that.  Codex bitching aside, they built a solid system that only needs a few tweaks here and there.  The only difficult technical change they need to make is AI, and playing on torment convinced me that they don't have as far to go as it looks like on lower difficulties.

 

That said, has there been any recent news on White March, you know, like the thread is titled?

Edited July 19, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Luckmann]

It's also worth pointing out that you can rest without going into the Brackenbury.

 

White March and hopefully the next PE need a clearer design direction for the narrative and world, and I think the experience gained from this game will help that.  Codex bitching aside, they built a solid system that only needs a few tweaks here and there.  The only difficult technical change they need to make is AI, and playing on torment convinced me that they don't have as far to go as it looks like on lower difficulties.

 

That said, has there been any recent news on White March, you know, like the thread is titled?

Noope.

[Namutree]

I've heard that no news is good news, but I don't agree. I want news! NEWS!!!

[Gromnir]

So you have a feel about others feels regarding feels, Strawnir?

 

Good stuff.

 

Meanwhile, the forum continues to not care. I'm not sure why you even continue to try to defend Sawyer, when I think practically everyone else is aware of the fact that Romances and Strongholds simply do not compare in the way he suggested.

 

after your most recent strawman faux pas, one wonders why you would continue embarrassing yourself with the strawnir nonsense.  am still looking for that josh post where he says he hates romances.

 

in any even, Gromnir didn't make a feel argument.  we were rational, which is difficult for you.  we noted that even if obsidian had no hard evidence to explain their belief that strongholds is disliked by many, that still leaves 'em with their own feel impressions which appear to conflict with yours.  so, as between embracing your feel and the collective feel o' the developers, why would the obsidians choose your feel argument over their own impressions?

 

am not sure how we can make this stuff any more simple for you.

 

HA! Good Fun!