Are these criticisms correct?

[jethro]

I'm still playing WL2, but a friend of mine already played a lot of PoE. First he liked it, but today he said he stopped playing for the moment because of some things that frustrated or irritated him. I would like to find out if he is right or did he overlook a few solutions?

 

1) One frustrating thing seemed to be the vampires who had no problem charming his most strong-willed characters while the low-willed front line fighters seemed strangely more robust. His party is level 10 by the way. He did not see how he could win against 4 vampires when half his party is charmed (and in 70% of cases the magic user who could counter a charm was charmed although he should have the best charm protection). Is level 10 too low for vampires? Did he miss a tactic or some info about will saves ? Or is he just unlucky and the random number generator his nemesis?

 

2) As soon as someone in his party is charmed the others tend to attack him. Ok, he is an enemy at that moment, but obviously it would be more sensible to just try to avoid him until the spell wears off, if possible. But it seems the automatic companion-AI often does too much. The same happens when you place a fireball or other AoE spell and one of your companions thinks this is the right time to wander into the area of effect. In NWN2 at least I could turn of the AI of companions in a few steps from heavy AI-controlled to practically zero AI, i.e. complete player control. Is that missing in PoE?

 

3) There are a lot of conversation checks that check for your main PC to have a skill (for example a high lore skill). But it doesn't help at all if the companions have the skill, only the main PC. As your main PC can't have everything, does that mean that you are expected to miss out on (say) 80% of skill related conversation options?

 

4) Attribute checks in conversations also seem so high that a character build of the PC that doesn't have one or two attributes maxed out (and the rest conversly at 10 or lower) makes it impossible to get any successful attribute checks in conversations. Is that true?

 

Ok, I may misrepresent or misremember points, so don't be too harsh if some critisism is obviously wrong. But please correct any false impressions or tell me where he is right and where he is wrong.

 

[RtrnofdMax]

1. It happens, but luckily you only find a large concentration of Vampyrs in one area. They also tend to come one per group of mobs so there are ways to disable them. Hint: They aren't immune to bullets. Six of them should do.

The AI in the game does tend to attack the nearest enemy, but this can be avoided with good micromanagement. Don't just let the AI complete combat for you. Direct your remaining guys against the correct targets. You can turn off Auto-Attack too, so if you don't mind your guy just standing there, you can avoid having them engage a charmed ally (who is an enemy to the AI).

(and 4.) You can't be good at everything. You are going to miss attribute and conversation checks no matter how you build your character. Any build will have room for a dump stat, so you can use those extra points to buff some other one. Resolve will be your most important stat if you want to talk your way into better rewards or out of fights. Every other stat (except Con, and only in a couple cases for Dex) has some checks. Resolve isn't great for combat though. If you don't need deflection, it's not helping you much. It's just a balance. There are only 5 skills in this game, and of those skills only two of them are used commonly in conversations (lore and survival) with Athletics being used in some scripted scenes. That means you don't need Stealth and Mechanics on your PC if you want them to be talky. You can use your party members in some of the scripted action scenes to bend bars, or lift a rock or hold their breath for a long time. I would suggest that if not being able to make a check bothers you, you should either plan your character through a walkthrough, or you should go to the menu and hide the conversation options for which you are not able to make the check. It feels a lot less like you're missing out that way.

Edited June 10, 2015 by RtrnofdMax

[srlapo]

1-2) Fampyrs attack the person most likely to fall for their charm so there isn't much you can do to prevent it, your entire team can't be strong everywhere. You need to work on a counter strategy, either disable the fampyr before it can fire off the charm or have a counter to the charm (paralyze or a charm or dominate of your own) ready. 

And not all dominate/charm attack will, sometimes they hit other defenses, so even a character strong against a type of charm can be affected by another type easily. That is why enemies that charm or dominate are the most difficult in the game.

 

3) Yes, replay value and all that. Don't worry about it, you are not missing anything critical. Just make sure someone in your party maxes out mechanics.

 

4) As for attributes, the checks can go up to 20, but most are 16 or below. It is the same as point 3, choose what you want to play and don't worry about it, the checks aren't really important. They just reinforce the perception of the characteristics you have chosen for you character. And sometimes you get a nice alternate quest resolution or some reputation points, but nothing really major.

[EphemeralToast]

1. There is only one fight in the game with 4+ fampyrs. It's considered to be one of the hardest fights in the game. It's also optional. And yes, I would say level 10 is too low for that fight unless you intentionally want to make it an even bigger challenge. Fampyrs are among the most dangerous enemies in the game but you will usually not face more than 1 at a time. If you focus ranged fire on them or start the fight with a strong disable you can often avoid having anyone charmed. A dead fampyr casts no charms.

 

2. Yes, if Auto-Attack is turned on your companions will sometimes attack a charmed party member. This is annoying but it can be avoided with vigilance and the pause button. The combat in this game is built around frequent pausing so you'll be doing that anyway. As for party members "wandering into" fireballs, well, that is either a result of the character killing an enemy and running to Auto-Attack another one, or your friend not practicing proper fireball safety!

 

3-4. As has been noted, I suggest you build your character the way you want and don't worry too much about the conversation checks. Reputation is the other major thing that unlocks dialog in the game and you'll get that naturally simply by [role]playing. But if you are dead-set on being able to complete quests in the most peaceful way possible (or tell tremendous lies), then play a tanky character and invest in maximum Res. It's the only stat that frequently unlocks resolutions you can't get in other ways, and takes the highest checks to do so.

[Crucis]

I'm still playing WL2, but a friend of mine already played a lot of PoE. First he liked it, but today he said he stopped playing for the moment because of some things that frustrated or irritated him. I would like to find out if he is right or did he overlook a few solutions?

 

1) One frustrating thing seemed to be the vampires who had no problem charming his most strong-willed characters while the low-willed front line fighters seemed strangely more robust. His party is level 10 by the way. He did not see how he could win against 4 vampires when half his party is charmed (and in 70% of cases the magic user who could counter a charm was charmed although he should have the best charm protection). Is level 10 too low for vampires? Did he miss a tactic or some info about will saves ? Or is he just unlucky and the random number generator his nemesis?

 

2) As soon as someone in his party is charmed the others tend to attack him. Ok, he is an enemy at that moment, but obviously it would be more sensible to just try to avoid him until the spell wears off, if possible. But it seems the automatic companion-AI often does too much. The same happens when you place a fireball or other AoE spell and one of your companions thinks this is the right time to wander into the area of effect. In NWN2 at least I could turn of the AI of companions in a few steps from heavy AI-controlled to practically zero AI, i.e. complete player control. Is that missing in PoE?

 

3) There are a lot of conversation checks that check for your main PC to have a skill (for example a high lore skill). But it doesn't help at all if the companions have the skill, only the main PC. As your main PC can't have everything, does that mean that you are expected to miss out on (say) 80% of skill related conversation options?

 

4) Attribute checks in conversations also seem so high that a character build of the PC that doesn't have one or two attributes maxed out (and the rest conversly at 10 or lower) makes it impossible to get any successful attribute checks in conversations. Is that true?

 

Ok, I may misrepresent or misremember points, so don't be too harsh if some critisism is obviously wrong. But please correct any false impressions or tell me where he is right and where he is wrong.

 

1.  Fampyrs' charms:  Part of the issue may be that in PoE, even magical attacks don't merely hit or miss. There are hits and misses, but also critical hits and grazing hits, even on a spell like Charm.  With regular physical attacks, a graze might be nearly entirely absorbed by your armor, but with a spell like Charm, a graze has 50% of the standard duration.  So it's really, really difficult to have a high enough Will defense to produce total misses on will based attacks, even with very high INT and RES for a high base Will save and adding Will enhancing items and talents.  Probably the best thing to do is to just try to accept that you'll get Charmed from time to time, but try to have enough of a Will save that you can reduce the duration down to graze level.  Secondly, you could counter-charm a charmed team mate to get them back on your team.  Or you could have a Cipher zap the charmed one with a Mental Binding so that they can't move for a while (and with some luck, you may bind some real enemies at the same time).

 

 

2. Party attacking charmed team mates.  There's nothing much you can do with game settings here.  The game doesn't have a separate status for charmed team mates that lets your uncharmed ones know to ignore them.  You can turn auto-attack off, or you can just pay close attention to your uncharmed team mates and redirect them into attacking the real enemies.

 

Also, what annoys me with PoE is the lack of the "Hold Position" button that existed in the IE games that allowed you to have auto-attack on, but order a given character to Hold a spot on the map that you point to.  This was great for telling a tank to hold a defensive position at a choke point, so that you'd know that he wouldn't stupidly run off on his own after killing the enemy in front of him.  I really, REALLY wish that the devs would get this feature into PoE!!!

 

3. Conversation checks.  Honestly, I think that it's silly to expect that every character is going to be good enough at everything to get every possible dialog option.  As for whether the attributes and skills of team mates should be included in dialog checks, I don't know.  There are some examples of this in the game.  One that comes to mind is in Sagani's personal quest, the PC has a vision of a cliff overlooking some water, and IIRC, Pallegina is familiar with the location, and interjects into the dialog with this info.

 

4.  Attribute Checks in dialogs being really high.  Not exactly.  There are a lot of times when the attribute checks are fairly low or moderate.  Only once in a rare while are the attribute levels required for a dialog option extremely high.

[Drath]

On the above issues:

 

1. Opponents with Charm and Dominate are easily some of the most irritating foes in the game. Start the fight by downing one via ranged attacks and disabling (paralyze/prone/confuse) the rest. Cipher has Mental Binding and Mind Plague whereas a Wizard can use Slicken and Call to Slumber. In some cases, I rush in a ranger's animal companion first if that's what I think would hurt my party least as opposed to another character getting Charmed/Dominated. Charmed is not so bad if you've placed said character near enough to the enemy. Even upon being Charmed, chances are sometimes it'll still keep wailing on that same target or stand there doing nothing.

2. As stated by other forumers, the AI tends to attack the nearest target in most cases but if you pause enough and redirect your party members to the right targets, this should not be too big a concern. I do back off from Charmed party members to give time for the effect to wear off. For Dominated ones which are pursuing your characters, a non-damaging ability which disables the target (ie cipher's Mental Binding) can help.

3. The vast majority of scripted conversation and skill/attribute checks are indeed for the main PC. Very occasionally there are checks where you can send another party member though. Managed to get a unique Morningstar from one of these. I think the intent isn't to be able to meet every check that comes your way but rather to make do with what you've set out with and adapt accordingly.

4. There's a pretty wide range of checks. Even with Per 12 and Int 12 I managed to meet a fair number of attribute checks with my Rogue, especially the earlier ones in Gilded Vale. Later on you'll get items with Per +3, Int +2 and the like, which extends the range somewhat. There are also bonuses from resting that can boost attributes. Of course there are also checks which require really high scores (18 and above) but there are always other routes you can take to resolve things. There isn't any quest that necessitates you to say have a Res of 18, otherwise you fail it.
That being said if your friend would like to get more conversation options, I'd like to think he'd enjoy playing a tank PC (probably Paladin or Fighter) since Resolve and Perception both contribute to Deflection and are also checked fairly often in-game.

[Raven Darkholme]

As to Fampyrs: Do I understand correct, your asking, whether Fampyr fights are possible, even though half your party is charmed?

A single paladin can breeze through undead Raedric because of righteous soul, why should three or two characters have a problemhere?

[Crucis]

 

4. There's a pretty wide range of checks. Even with Per 12 and Int 12 I managed to meet a fair number of attribute checks with my Rogue, especially the earlier ones in Gilded Vale. Later on you'll get items with Per +3, Int +2 and the like, which extends the range somewhat. There are also bonuses from resting that can boost attributes. Of course there are also checks which require really high scores (18 and above) but there are always other routes you can take to resolve things. There isn't any quest that necessitates you to say have a Res of 18, otherwise you fail it.

That being said if your friend would like to get more conversation options, I'd like to think he'd enjoy playing a tank PC (probably Paladin or Fighter) since Resolve and Perception both contribute to Deflection and are also checked fairly often in-game.

 

a.  IIRC, there is one small quest where having a super high RES will give you an option that lets you avoid an all out brawl, but as you say, even in this instance it isn't required to complete the quest.

 

b. Yes, if one is looking for the most dialog options possible, Fighters and Paladins are perhaps the best since they tend to desire strong PER and RES scores.  In some ways, it's a shame that these dialog options are tied to PER and RES for this reason.  It seems to force one to use certain classes if you want to have the widest dialog options while not sacrificing the build to get those stats.  It might have been better if the sort of dialog options that are related to PER and RES were linked to talking skills, sort of the way that IWD2 used diplomacy and intimidation skills.  Meh, even so, this is one heck of a good game.

[Tennisgolfboll]

The dialogue is not a problem. The chain charm isnt to fun.

 

They should perhaps have made it so that first charm gets full duration, second (within 2 min or so) half, third half of half etc

Edited June 11, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[Drath]

a.  IIRC, there is one small quest where having a super high RES will give you an option that lets you avoid an all out brawl, but as you say, even in this instance it isn't required to complete the quest.

 

b. Yes, if one is looking for the most dialog options possible, Fighters and Paladins are perhaps the best since they tend to desire strong PER and RES scores.  In some ways, it's a shame that these dialog options are tied to PER and RES for this reason.  It seems to force one to use certain classes if you want to have the widest dialog options while not sacrificing the build to get those stats.  It might have been better if the sort of dialog options that are related to PER and RES were linked to talking skills, sort of the way that IWD2 used diplomacy and intimidation skills.  Meh, even so, this is one heck of a good game.

 

 

Haha yea I think I know the one you're referring to. I was kinda prepared to fail it conversationally as duping someone is always tricky, so I'd positioned my party in a way that the less armored ones would be somewhat shielded. What I wasn't prepared for was actually getting a positive reputation increase after killing the target and no decrease in reputation on killing other mobs. Which is funny because if you tried killing a Defiance Bay noble/citizen, you can be sure your rep is going to plunge.

In short I don't consider taking the brawl route as quest failure, its just another way of doing things. The quest completes, you get positive rep and lots of loot to boot lol. To be honest, I don't think it would have been fair to ask for more

 

As for a Paladin being the party face, I don't see it as objectionable or unnatural. Back in IWD2 and older games, Paladins with their high Charisma used to fulfil that role as well, sometimes Sorcerers too. Sure, I agree that it'd be a great addition to have Diplomacy/Bluff/intimidation factored in as well but I found the current system to be workable once I got the hang of it (as in not expecting I'd be getting every single conversation option available).

Edited June 11, 2015 by Drath

[Crucis]

 

a.  IIRC, there is one small quest where having a super high RES will give you an option that lets you avoid an all out brawl, but as you say, even in this instance it isn't required to complete the quest.

 

b. Yes, if one is looking for the most dialog options possible, Fighters and Paladins are perhaps the best since they tend to desire strong PER and RES scores.  In some ways, it's a shame that these dialog options are tied to PER and RES for this reason.  It seems to force one to use certain classes if you want to have the widest dialog options while not sacrificing the build to get those stats.  It might have been better if the sort of dialog options that are related to PER and RES were linked to talking skills, sort of the way that IWD2 used diplomacy and intimidation skills.  Meh, even so, this is one heck of a good game.

 

 

Haha yea I think I know the one you're referring to. I was kinda prepared to fail it conversationally as duping someone is always tricky, so I'd positioned my party in a way that the less armored ones would be somewhat shielded. What I wasn't prepared for was actually getting a positive reputation increase after killing the target and no decrease in reputation on killing other mobs. Which is funny because if you tried killing a Defiance Bay noble/citizen, you can be sure your rep is going to plunge.

In short I don't consider taking the brawl route as quest failure, its just another way of doing things. The quest completes, you get positive rep and lots of loot to boot lol. To be honest, I don't think it would have been fair to ask for more

 

As for a Paladin being the party face, I don't see it as objectionable or unnatural. Back in IWD2 and older games, Paladins with their high Charisma used to fulfil that role as well, sometimes Sorcerers too. Sure, I agree that it'd be a great addition to have Diplomacy/Bluff/intimidation factored in as well but I found the current system to be workable once I got the hang of it (as in not expecting I'd be getting every single conversation option available).

 

 

Just realized that this was a "spoilers are ok" subforum...  The quest I was referring to was the one in Twin Elms where you have to

poison a clan leader by getting him to willing drink a potion and convincing him that it was something else

.   With a very high RES you can do it.  Otherwise he'll attack you.

 

As for the other thing, yeah, the existing system is sort of workable.  My gripe is that because dialog options are linked to PER and RES and INT, it button-holes players who want the extra dialog options into playing classes and builds that are some combo of PER/RES/INT heavy.  And that tends to mean classes whose best builds benefit from those stats, and tends to make classes whose best builds depend on other attributes not look as viable for PC's by people wanting to role play and get better dialog options.  Oh well.

[jethro]

Thanks for your answers, I have a much clearer picture of the situation now. Might help to kill my friends frustation.

[AndreaColombo]

Fampyr's charm attacks Deflection. That's why your frontliners appear to be more resistant to it.

[Tennisgolfboll]

Didnt that change with 1.05? Now its will

 

It was a bug.

 

Some attacks with extra effect like sporeling big confuse and fampyr only tested to hit. Now it first hits and tests properly

Edited June 12, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[srlapo]

Male Fampyrs now attack will. Female Fampyrs seem to auto hit with their charm. It doesn't show up in the combat log and I never saw it being successfully resisted, even with +100 will defenses.

[darqleo]

I've come out of battles where I was down to 1 character left standing, never mind 1/2 the party charmed. You just have to change up your tactics. Get some summoning spells or items to add more fodder for battle. Ranged weapons are your friend. Confusion is a great spell to kind of reset the chessboard if you are getting overwhelmed. Petrifaction is another good one.

[jethro]

Hah, I discussed all your points with my disillusioned friend today and "we" scored some points against his opinions. What I could not counter was that, as he wanted to play a rogue AND solve quests through dialog, he practically was screwed from the beginning. He is at a point now where he can't open many locks anymore because he didn't put ALL points into mechanics but can't solve the quests through dialog because his knowledge and lore skills are not high enough. And obviously, if you play a rogue, it would make no sense to let someone else do all the defusing and box-opening, that is why you play a rogue and this is still a *role-playing* game, right?

 

Is it apparent (in the documentation) that lore and knowledge must be high for that or not? Combined with the need that only few classes are really good at social play (which is a very common play style) and players tend to have prefered classes makes this something Obsidian should definitely tweak.

 

When we talked about all the attribute- and resolve-checks, he said that the problem is that the only resolution open to you if you fail these checks is by fighting your way through. I.e. you can't solve most quests socially unless you have high attributes and resolve. Your only option then is to fight. Sure, you don't really fail the quest, but there is no relevant choice anymore.

 

Ok, I'm sure he exaggerated a bit, when he said "ALL" quests are that way ;-), but is his impression somewhat correct? Sure, in pen and paper games social resolutons involve skill checks too but there you know from the beginning which skills the social character needs and it's not a fixed limit but (almost?) always a check with a dice role involved. In Pillars there is no chance involved and the description of resolve for example doesn't really give you the meta-knowledge of its importance (ok, you could say it is there, but reading about perception and intellect gives me the impression those two would be much much more important): "Resolve reflects a character's internal drive, determination, fearlessness, and the emotional intensity they can project to others. It can be useful for mental intimidation, leadership, and convincing performances. In combat, it helps characters maintain Concentration and contributes to the Will and Deflection defenses".

 

 

Any comments? Your previous contributions give me the hope of further intelligent replies that I can throw back to my friend ;-).

Edited June 13, 2015 by jethro

[Drath]

Yea I did Mechanics on my Rogue main and yes it was pretty costly in terms of skill points. But as you say, its a roleplaying game and it wouldn't seem quite right to have a Rogue not doing roguey stuff like opening locks and detecting traps. I also didn't know better back then, so I just went with what felt natural to me. Now that you can reconfigure party companions to your liking (post-patch 1.05), you can certainly get one to specialize in Mechanics upon picking them up.

 

That being said, there are also a few cases where Mechanics are needed in conversations... as I mentioned earlier, unless you specifically configure your main for it, you'll probably not have access to some conversation lines in any case. I don't see that as a bad thing as quests can be finished in more than one way.

 

 

I would also argue that if you're playing a Rogue main, you DO want to see some battles. Why else play a dps character lol 'sides the loot is good. That's how I see the class anyway, as a swashbuckler/assassin type first and a smooth talking spy a rather distant second. Refer to the wiki if you don't think that's a realistic picture for a Rogue. 

 

 

On Mechanics, If you don't have enough, but still want to open locks/detect traps, these options can help a bit: 

 

a)Resting at a place that gives you a Mechanics bonus:

i)Laborer's Rest, Black Hound Inn, Gilded Vale (110cp, +1 Perception, +1 Mechanics)

ii)Fletcher's Stay, Fox and Goose Inn, Copperlane (140cp, +1 Athletics, +1 Mechanics)

iii)Caed Nua (assuming you have built the Artificer Hall)(+1 Mechanics) 

 

b)Hoping you get lucky by opening a chest/container that has Gloves of Manipulation (+2 Mechanics, +1 Dex)

If your friend is lazy and would rather metagame it, he can check the list of "random" items here and open the "right" chest on the "right" day to be assured of the gloves.

 

Also, not being able to open 1 or 2 chests safely isn't the end of world. You can either get the tank to open it and soak the damage or come back later when you've levelled up and have more skill points to spend. Anyway the max you need is about Mechanics 12. At Mechanics 10 you can already open vast majority of boxes. My Rogue's skills for reference at L12 (includes some earned talents, but not item bonuses) - Stealth 4, Athletics 5, Lore 4, Mechanics 12, Survival 1. There are of course item drops in-game which boost Lore, Stealth, etc, so depending on what the situation requires, you can boost the relevant skill if needed.

 

 

On quests needing Resolve well not all quests are like that. A good number actually test Per or Int.

For example you can investigate why a particular Cean Gwla (banshee) is haunting the lighthouse. IIRC that one requires a Perception check, not Resolve, and its not terribly high. Or you could just fight the Cean Gwla. Pretty tough fight though if you do it that way though.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Drath

[jethro]

That being said, there are also a few cases where Mechanics are needed in conversations... as I mentioned earlier, unless you specifically configure your main for it, you'll probably not have access to some conversation lines in any case. I don't see that as a bad thing as quests can be finished in more than one way.

Quests can be finished in more than one way, sure, but can they still be finished in more than one way if you don't succeed at that resolve check? Or is a fight the only solution then?

 

I would also argue that if you're playing a Rogue main, you DO want to see some battles. Why else play a dps character lol 'sides the loot is good. That's how I see the class anyway, as a swashbuckler/assassin type first and a smooth talking spy a rather distant second. Refer to the wiki if you don't think that's a realistic picture for a Rogue.

With that argument a mage would also want to see battles, he's DPS as well. And remember that someone else in this thread suggested a tank if you want to play a diplomat. Does a tank sound like a peaceful negotiator to you?

 

If I remember correctly, Obsidian wanted to separate social skills and battle skills so that you can seek diplomatic solutions irrespective of the class you play. This seems to have failed at least for the rogue.

 

On quests needing Resolve well not all quests are like that. A good number actually test Per or Int.

It would be interesting to know percentages. If a lot more quests need Resolve than Per or Int, it is likely that Obsidian just didn't notice the imbalance. Still, I think a special "diplomacy" skill (and a random element in the skill check) would have been the better solution to the meta-game of making a PC that suits ones play style.

Edited June 13, 2015 by jethro

[RtrnofdMax]

A solo rogue can beat the game with 12 total kills. Stealth and conversation are a large part of it.

[EphemeralToast]

Hah, I discussed all your points with my disillusioned friend today and "we" scored some points against his opinions. What I could not counter was that, as he wanted to play a rogue AND solve quests through dialog, he practically was screwed from the beginning. He is at a point now where he can't open many locks anymore because he didn't put ALL points into mechanics but can't solve the quests through dialog because his knowledge and lore skills are not high enough. And obviously, if you play a rogue, it would make no sense to let someone else do all the defusing and box-opening, that is why you play a rogue and this is still a *role-playing* game, right?

 

So, first of all, don't worry about "winning the argument" with your friend. His opinion is his opinion and he's entitled to it!

 

That said, there are only a handful of quests in the game where your only options are either "pass a stat check" or "murder everyone." In fact, I can only really think of two that are like that--one is the previously mentioned lighthouse ghost, and the stat check is quite reasonable; the other is a very lategame quest where you either pass a Res 20 check or get in a huge fight (and frankly, for what you're attempting to do, you deserve it). There are multiple conversations in the game where you can achieve a peaceful result simply by choosing non-stat-linked dialog carefully. Two endgame enemies can be dealt with peacefully in this fashion!

 

There are also many Lore, Perception, Int., and Survival checks that do nothing except give flavor to the conversation. Perhaps your friend is seeing these "flavor" checks and thinking "dammit, I'm missing out on an alternate resolution to this quest!" when it simply isn't the case.

[jethro]

That said, there are only a handful of quests in the game where your only options are either "pass a stat check" or "murder everyone." In fact, I can only really think of two that are like that--one is the previously mentioned lighthouse ghost, and the stat check is quite reasonable; the other is a very lategame quest where you either pass a Res 20 check or get in a huge fight (and frankly, for what you're attempting to do, you deserve it). There are multiple conversations in the game where you can achieve a peaceful result simply by choosing non-stat-linked dialog carefully. Two endgame enemies can be dealt with peacefully in this fashion!

I assume you are not talking just about the main quest line, the "handful" is about ALL quests in the game, right?

[EphemeralToast]

I assume you are not talking just about the main quest line, the "handful" is about ALL quests in the game, right?

 

 

Yes. The two quests I mentioned are side quests. As far as I remember, the only part of the main quest where stat checks really affect anything is the hearing at the end of Act II.