Who is This God Person Anyway?

[Yonjuro]

 

 However, it is just wishful thinking. It is very solid and very real to believers just as all delusions are very solid and very real to those who believe them.

 

^While we're on the subject of definitions:

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Or from oxford dictionary:

An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:

 

Faith isn't the same as maintaining a delusion (assuming we're talking about real world faith as opposed to evidence in PoE that we got, if in a flat info-dump 'this is the way it is' way)...

 

 Fair enough. I used the word 'delusion' because, in the DSM (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), the section on delusional thinking explicitly excludes religious faith because it is otherwise indistinguishable from (other) delusional thinking using the available diagnostic methods - so, I tend to view it as a distinction without a difference but YMMV.

 

...I think comparing questions of faith in Eora to ones in the real world is something of an overstep.  For one, it's a fairly short narrative to get into it.  For another, it's not the same situation.  There is clear evidence in Eora for (a) the gods existence and (b) the creation of the gods by Engwithans.  The latter isn't widespread though...

 

 I agree. That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Yonjuro

[Silent Winter]

 Fair enough. I used the word 'delusion' because, in the DSM (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), the section on delusional thinking explicitly excludes religious faith because it is otherwise indistinguishable from (other) delusional thinking using the available diagnostic methods - so, I tend to view it as a distinction without a difference but YMMV.

 

I see - it's the "despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument," bit that's the distinction for me.

I know the argument's been going on for a while in the real world about God's existence - but there are smart people on both sides who think they've got 'proof' or 'strong evidence'.  In my personal experience and research there is no 'proof' nor even 'strong evidence' - which is why I go on 'faith' (and why I distinguish it from 'delusion' - which I'd define as someone refusing to listen to reason because they 'know' something is the case.)

Semantic argument then.

I agree with the rest of what you said though

[Yonjuro]

 

....

I see - it's the "despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument," bit that's the distinction for me...

 

 

 

 Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion.

 

 There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as:  people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc.

 

 I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. 

[Gromnir]

again, for purposes o' developing theme, the answer you arrive at is unimportant.  with manifest deities, the question o' God's existence is rendered moot, or ridiculous. the nature o' God? well gosh, when God can actual active participate in the debate, the question is something for a Far side Comic panel.

 

*shrug*

 

answers don't matter.  obsidian makes the question possible in a world with manifest "gods."  is clever. is arguable unnecessary and likely limiting to have multiple manifest deities, but even so, to be able to have the question and all those manifest deities in the same setting is an innovative approach.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Silent Winter]

 Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion.

 

 There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as:  people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc.

 

 I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. 

 

 

^I've never met a young-Earth creationist, guess we don't have many round where I'm from.

I'm not saying delusional people can't have faith.  I'm saying faith doesn't equal delusion.

 

So bringing it back to PoE -> The people weren't delusional for not believing Iovarra (sp?) as they hadn't seen any evidence for themselves (but they did have evidence that the gods existed at least).  Thaos was involved in deluding the people, I think the question (or one of them) in PoE is 'was he right to do so?' - but we're not allowed to conclude that in the game and let him continue.

In the ending where Eder becomes a missionary of Eothas - is he deluding people or giving them faith?

(In my first playthrough, I went with 'people should know the truth' - in the second, I tried to tell Thaos he was right...but had to fight him anyway because 'Boss Battle' )

Edited June 16, 2015 by Silent Winter

[Nakia]

Religious belief is a highly personal thing and I believe it best to tread lightly when discussing it out of simple human courtesy.  The existence of God can neither be proven or disproved.  Trying to tell me otherwise is a complete waste of time.

 

In PoE there is evidence that the gods do exists and do have power.  There is also evidence that they were created by the Egwithians.  What would happen if the Watcher is able to persuade a significant number of people that the gods are not gods?  I think the world would fall into chaos.  There could even be retaliation by these god creations themselves causing more suffering and disasters.  

 

If I am correct it would be better for Eora for the Watcher to drink his cup of hemlock rather than deprive the kith of their beliefs.

[tinysalamander]

Whether constructed by mortals or not the gods in PoE exist and have powers.  People will believe in them, have faith in them.  What actual proof does the Watcher have to lay before people?  

 

He can kill them all in hoboest way possible. But then he'll unlikely to have proof, they'll just stop answering like Eothas, maybe someday they'll be forgotten. Or not. And if their deaths somehow would have projected to the followers that'd effectively make the Watcher a new god, whether he is one or not.

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

 

 

....

I see - it's the "despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument," bit that's the distinction for me...

Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion.

 

There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as: people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc.

 

I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument.

It is you who are delusional.

 

1000 years ago the bible said the earth was sphere. You scientists said it was flat. You were wrong.

 

500 years ago you said trolls existed. The bible said no.

 

Today you claim evolution and aliens, but when we watch endlessly into space there is nothing there. But 1 squarefoot of rainforest is full of life.

 

You are, and have always been delusional. For you take any desperate idea to try and hide from Allmighty God. Your weak bubble needs to be constantly repaired and lies never stand the test of time so you constantly change your theories (fantasies) about the world.

 

Here is what your desperate blind leaders, that lead you to everlasting torment in hell, never can explain away. The first natural thing must come from the supernatural.

 

Evolution is as big a lie as the earth is flat, aliens or big bang.

If it had been true the all living races would have been living next to next generstion of evolved beings. There would be humans, and humans 2.0. The change does not happen on a day according to your delusional scientists. This would be true for every living thing.

 

But it gets even more fantastic one day the universe is 3 billion years the next 11 billion years. LoL its funny really.

 

The bible writes about an animal the has a tail the size of a large tree, a dinosaur. Every last old civ has paintings of these creatures (chinese, egyptian etc). These same civs also all speaks of a flood that was before them. They are all related to Noah which is why they do that.

 

The truth is there are never new animals, there is no 1% ape 99% man and all the other 99 steps because they never happen. Extinction happens there is evidence for that.

 

Finally evolution is a race theory. White are less ape than blacks. You dont know what darwin wrote about at all. He also promised that before his death they would find all the missing links between man and ape (99% human 1 ape and the other 100 steps, endless bones)

 

One has never found anything but 100% human bones, or 100% ape. Genes show this.

 

Genes also show that every now living human shares one pre father and one pre mother. Every last one. But do you scientists see adam and eve? Of course not

 

Delusional indeed

Edited June 16, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[NerdCommando]

500 years ago you said trolls existed. The bible said no.

Yeah, the good book was clearly wrong on this one - we have one right here!

[Nakia]

 

Whether constructed by mortals or not the gods in PoE exist and have powers.  People will believe in them, have faith in them.  What actual proof does the Watcher have to lay before people?  

 

He can kill them all in hoboest way possible. But then he'll unlikely to have proof, they'll just stop answering like Eothas, maybe someday they'll be forgotten. Or not. And if their deaths somehow would have projected to the followers that'd effectively make the Watcher a new god, whether he is one or not.

 

That would make for some interesting game endings depending on how you built your character.  The Watcher could end up a very kind benevolent deity or a very cruel, despotic one.  Maybe he/she wouldn't need to kill all the other "gods" but could come to some sort of alliance with them.  The Leaden Key is still around to cause trouble.  

[Zwiebelchen]

 

500 years ago you said trolls existed. The bible said no.

 

 

I see what you did there. Well played, sir. Well played...

 

 

 

That would make for some interesting game endings depending on how you built your character.  The Watcher could end up a very kind benevolent deity or a very cruel, despotic one.  Maybe he/she wouldn't need to kill all the other "gods" but could come to some sort of alliance with them.  The Leaden Key is still around to cause trouble.  

 

 

Though, that would basicly be Baldur's Gate.

[Nakia]

 

 

500 years ago you said trolls existed. The bible said no.

 

 

I see what you did there. Well played, sir. Well played...

 

 

 

That would make for some interesting game endings depending on how you built your character.  The Watcher could end up a very kind benevolent deity or a very cruel, despotic one.  Maybe he/she wouldn't need to kill all the other "gods" but could come to some sort of alliance with them.  The Leaden Key is still around to cause trouble.  

 

 

Though, that would basicly be Baldur's Gate.

 

But in reverse and with more options.      "The Watcher is watching you."

[Varana]

The problem of the faith in this game is that is approached from an entirely wrong angle. First, whenever there were any sorts of theological questions in the game, I couldn't have shaked off a feeling that it's a western, post-christian worldview that's getting discussed here. Like, you know, the gods are supposed to be omniscient & omnipresent but they're not, what a bogus. However, that really shouldn't be the case - we're talking about a pagan pantheon here which also should be at least somewhat oriental in nature. Because reincarnation is a fact and, well, it's the easter religion & philosophy that tried to deal with this for, like, ages. And, like, Buddha has been a human - nobody really minds it. Of course, he's not really a god from a western point of view but, well, there are very little logical reasons that said point of view should actually get applied here. The setting just doesn't give any reasons for something like that to get birthed.

 

I don't think that that's an issue with the game.

PoE presents a polytheistic pantheon where gods are not omniscient and omnipotent by necessity. That is basically common knowledge - they blew up one of the them, after all.

 

The core of Iovara's heresy and the Watcher's discovery is not that the gods aren't gods in the Western monotheistic sense of the word. It is what manageri said earlier: That the gods are just ... things. That they cannot lay claim to any moral or ethical superiority. That there is no reason why people should follow one of them instead of some random guy saying stuff.

 

That the gods have any authority on morality, goodness, and what is right or wrong, is itself not a necessity. In various religions, god-like beings really are just that: Higher powers, some of which are good, some evil, and mostly they're just there. In PoE, however, the gods more or less were created with that purpose in mind: To lead their believers according to their domain.

 

Even after what the Watcher discovered, the gods aren't going to disappear in a large cloud of dust. They're still there, they're as real and powerful as ever. The Watcher has a chance to spread the knowledge that the gods are not moral guides. And if he/she doesn't, after a while, animancy research will probably find out about their creation without the Watcher, now that Thaos doesn't meddle any more. The paradigm challenged by the Watcher is not that gods exist or have power, but that they're more than just powerful beings like any other dragon, that what they say and stand for is worth following because they say so.

 

---

Yes, I know, Tennisgolfboll is proving the bible wrong, but I can't let that pass: No, no one with a little bit of knowledge about the subject believed that the earth was flat, a thousand years ago.

[NerdCommando]

It is what manageri said earlier: That the gods are just ... things. That they cannot lay claim to any moral or ethical superiority. That there is no reason why people should follow one of them instead of some random guy saying stuff.

You're sorta saying the same thing in the followup but anyhow - the deities don't need to claim any moral superiority. We're not talking about abrahamic religions here - in greek mythology, for example, gods were anything but moral. In fact, they pretty much all vere incredibly amoral. But that was fine with their followers. And people followed them because, well, you screw up with the gods and you end up as some kind of deformed monstrousity or, at the very least, get a lightning bolt in your face.

 

Sure, the gods in PoE are supposed to make the world better... But that's one of the worst aspects of the game's writing, tbh. First, the whole premise of an entire nation sacrificing itself for the sake of all other people in the world is really, really unbelievable. More so in the dog eats dog world of PoE. Second, the exact positivity here is a really important factor that gets barely explored - as I've said, it absolutely contradicts with the "gods don't meddle with the affairs of the mortals".

 

But what little can we scramble from the game shows us that instead of turning the world into utopia they're more about making it more or less stable. And to provide some comfort to the people who live in it. To fulfill certain desires, pretty much. You want revenge at any cost? Skaen is your friend. You want a life of mystery and discovery? Enter the Wael. Wanna go all emo? Ondra will fix you up. Wanna be a good salaryman and die of Karoshi - Abydon won't forget you. These are some very fanservisish gods and they pretty much deliver (in most cases).

 

So that's what makes the whole Iovara's rebellion kinda moot - people don't serve the gods for free, they serve for pay and they receive it. Whether the gods are artificial or not doesn't come strongly into this equation. Even if Skaen is fake, who else will help you to make that fat lord cough his innards out? It's just that, under such conditions, the chances of anyone actually bothering to believe her are very, very small.

[SlayerDorian]

The real core of it is that the religion/pantheon was created by mortals to control other mortals.  They did not do it out of malice, but it is still being used to strongly influence the behavior of other mortals.

 

Then, in walks the usual conflict: Were the deities (or the idea of) created by mortals to influence/control the behavior of other mortals or are they "real", as in, they have always been there.  Those who choose to believe despite there being no real evidence, have faith.  If there was true evidence then it would not be faith.

 

In PoE, the twist is that there is evidence that gods exist - even though they were created by mortals.  At that point, I'm not sure it's really faith but simply worship.  Though on the flip side, memory is a funny thing and when you have powerful entities in the mix that could easily mess with your perception, it could be possible that you were manipulated by gods to some degree for some other purpose.  Perhaps they weren't created by mortals, but one of them needed you to think they were or some such.

[Nakia]

I have spent many years studying religion including formal theology  If we define a god as being eternal, without  beginning or end, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent there is only one god who fits that definition, Yahweh/Allah, the god of the Hebrews, Christians and Muslims.  The Greek gods certainly don't .  Zeus is the son of Cronus who is the son of Uranus.

 

The gods of PoE are real however they came about.  They have  power and do interact with mortals to some extent.  The Kith do worship them and do have faith in them.  When the god does not act as expected that faith can be shaken, even lost.  

 

The soul is the animating force for all living things although it is poorly understood.  It can be manipulated and its power can be used.  A soul can be implanted in Adra.  The souls of animals were implanted in Hollowborn children although that didn't work out well.  

 

As far as the writing of the story goes I think the Devs did a fantastic job or else we wouldn't be able to have discussions like this one.

[Yonjuro]

 

 Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion.

 

 There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as:  people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc.

 

 I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. 

 

 

^I've never met a young-Earth creationist, guess we don't have many round where I'm from.

 

 

 Unfortunately YEC is not even the strangest belief somebody has tried to convince me of. (And, more unfortunately, some of these believers feel that their religious delusions should be taught in public school science classes too, but I digress).

 

 

 

I'm not saying delusional people can't have faith.  I'm saying faith doesn't equal delusion.

 

 Certainly. It only becomes a delusion when it leads to provably false beliefs.

 

 

 

So bringing it back to PoE -> The people weren't delusional for not believing Iovarra (sp?) as they hadn't seen any evidence for themselves (but they did have evidence that the gods existed at least).  Thaos was involved in deluding the people, I think the question (or one of them) in PoE is 'was he right to do so?' - but we're not allowed to conclude that in the game and let him continue.

 

 

 I don't see how the mass murder and mass torture campaign could be the right thing to do even if the beliefs were true. Since they were false, it seems especially bad. This part doesn't seem like a moral gray area to me.

 

 

 

In the ending where Eder becomes a missionary of Eothas - is he deluding people or giving them faith?

 

 From my point of view, presenting the philosophy of life associated with the deity could be a good thing if it was a good philosophy. Lying about it would be a bad thing. Not lying about it, but not telling the whole truth to a population not ready to hear it would be a gray area. 

[Yonjuro]

Religious belief is a highly personal thing and I believe it best to tread lightly when discussing it out of simple human courtesy.  The existence of God can neither be proven or disproved. 

 

 If a god were to manifest in the natural world, one could prove that it existed. I agree that one can't disprove the existence of a god but one can disprove specific god claims e.g. the sun is not dragged across the sky behind the chariot of the the sun god. That doesn't prove that there is no sun god, just that the specific claim is false.

 

 

 Trying to tell me otherwise is a complete waste of time.

 

 Ok, ignore the first part of this message then. 

 

 

In PoE there is evidence that the gods do exists and do have power.  There is also evidence that they were created by the Egwithians.  What would happen if the Watcher is able to persuade a significant number of people that the gods are not gods?  I think the world would fall into chaos.  

 

 Why would the world fall into chaos? In our own world, less religious places haven't fallen into chaos; quite the reverse, they tend to score well in measures of societal health. In the PoE world, I would expect people to gnash their teeth for about a week and then get on with living life.

[Yonjuro]

 

...

It is you who are delusional.

 

1000 years ago the bible said the earth was sphere. You scientists said it was flat. You were wrong.

 

500 years ago you said trolls existed. The bible said no. ....

 

 

   

 

 Trolls eh? Hmm, if only we had been able to find some evidence.....

[Silent Winter]

 

Yes, I know, Tennisgolfboll is proving the bible wrong, but I can't let that pass: No, no one with a little bit of knowledge about the subject believed that the earth was flat, a thousand years ago.

 

First: No they didn't prove anything of the sort.  They did however make some odd claims.

Second: Yep, around 3000 years ago we had the round Earth (possibly earlier) (Perhaps not confirmed by Greek mathematicians until around 2000 years ago).

The Bible (old testament) does refer to it as an orb though.

 

 

Religious belief is a highly personal thing and I believe it best to tread lightly when discussing it out of simple human courtesy.  The existence of God can neither be proven or disproved. 

 

 If a god were to manifest in the natural world, one could prove that it existed. I agree that one can't disprove the existence of a god but one can disprove specific god claims e.g. the sun is not dragged across the sky behind the chariot of the the sun god. That doesn't prove that there is no sun god, just that the specific claim is false.

 

 

 Trying to tell me otherwise is a complete waste of time.

 

 Ok, ignore the first part of this message then. 

Well, Nakia said 'God' not 'a god'

 

 

 

In PoE there is evidence that the gods do exists and do have power.  There is also evidence that they were created by the Egwithians.  What would happen if the Watcher is able to persuade a significant number of people that the gods are not gods?  I think the world would fall into chaos.  

 

 Why would the world fall into chaos? In our own world, less religious places haven't fallen into chaos; quite the reverse, they tend to score well in measures of societal health. In the PoE world, I would expect people to gnash their teeth for about a week and then get on with living life.

'Chaos' and 'Societal Health' aren't opposites - or was Stalinist Russia, or the place I live now - how it used to be when they'd tried to suppress religions - (but I'd  best not mention too much as the internet's still not exactly free), a picture of 'societal health' in your view?

 

Bringing it back to PoE - hard to say.  They're still in an early renaissance level, comparing it to modern society here might not be equivalent - If many people stopped believing, what would happen?  (Bearing in mind, the gods there have teeth) - might some gods accept it and others take advantage?  Rymrgand (sp?) perhaps?

Would there not be new 'religions' / 'cults' cropping up to fill the void?

I certainly think that if there were a sudden cessation of belief, there would be civil unrest as people dealt with the bottom falling out of their ideas about the world.  If this spread gradually, then society would adapt around it.

[Yonjuro]

 

Well, Nakia said 'God' not 'a god'

 

 

 tomayto/Tomahto 

 

 

'Chaos' and 'Societal Health' aren't opposites - or was Stalinist Russia, or the place I live now - how it used to be when they'd tried to suppress religions - (but I'd  best not mention too much as the internet's still not exactly free), a picture of 'societal health' in your view?

 

 Sure, and no I wouldn't call Stalinist Russia an example of a healthy society (though, I suppose it was orderly). Stalin pretty much killed anyone he viewed as a competitor (including God).

 

 My societal health comment was referring to places like Japan, the Scandinavian countries etc. where there are low levels of religiousity in healthy (and orderly) societies. My point here is that becoming less religious doesn't seem to have harmed these societies. 

 

 

Bringing it back to PoE - hard to say.  They're still in an early renaissance level, comparing it to modern society here might not be equivalent - If many people stopped believing, what would happen?  (Bearing in mind, the gods there have teeth) - might some gods accept it and others take advantage?  Rymrgand (sp?) perhaps?

Would there not be new 'religions' / 'cults' cropping up to fill the void?

I certainly think that if there were a sudden cessation of belief, there would be civil unrest as people dealt with the bottom falling out of their ideas about the world.  If this spread gradually, then society would adapt around it.

 

  It's an interesting question, but as you said, in that world the gods have teeth. Even if the population learns the truth they still have a group of powerful beings to contend with.  If we go back to your Stalinist Russia example, suppose a large percentage of the population went from being true believers in the revolution to deciding that Stalin was just a bastard stealing everything (which is probably exactly what happened). Nothing changes until the power structure changes.

 

 Going back to the renaissance, I think it's fair to say that the Borgia controlled papacy may not have fully believed the doctrines that they were upholding (or if they did, they had a strange way of showing it) but rather they were wielding power. If belief had suddenly completely fallen away in the general population, the same people would still have had a lot of power to ride out the (week or so) of social unrest. 

 

 If  a farmer who believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster suddenly loses his belief, he may feel that harvesting his crop of durum wheat and grinding it into semolina flour is less meaningful than it used to be, but he is still going to do it because he needs to earn a living. Society marches on.

[Nakia]

The world of PoE is not the real world it is a fantasy world in which magic exists, wizards, priests, chanters and others can cast spells.  It is also a world where the printing press does not exists, books are still written by hand.  It also seems that education is primarily limited to the well off, nobles and those favored by nobles.  Although Eder a son of a farmer and a farmer himself can read which is interesting.  Is the ability to read a magic talent?  Despite its being a republic nobles like Raedric still have the power of life and death over their subjects.  

 

The gods do have teeth and can and will act to protect themselves.   Destroying the temple of a god you believe to be dead is one thing but destroying the temple of a living god could be rather dangerous.

 

If we do insist on comparing it to the real world then beware the depth that people can believe and react when those beliefs are questioned.  A slow erosion of belief is one thing but trying to change people quickly is another.  

[Yonjuro]

 

The gods do have teeth and can and will act to protect themselves.   Destroying the temple of a god you believe to be dead is one thing but destroying the temple of a living god could be rather dangerous.

 

 

 That's what I was getting at with the Stalin example. If everyone learns the truth, so what? They are still stuck with a bunch of powerful beings just as eastern Europe was stuck with Stalin. The power structure hasn't really changed, so I think a new lack of belief doesn't really change anything, but it sounds like you are arguing the opposite.

 

 Isn't knowing the truth about the gods in the PoE world mostly irrelevant (w.r.t. maintaining societal order) when they are still powerful beings who can and do act in the world?

 

 Or, for another real world example, in times and places where apostasy was/is punishable by death (such as medieval Europe and some parts of the modern day Middle East, Central Asia etc.) there are very few admitted apostates because it's dangerous. The status quo doesn't change very quickly in those circumstances due to the threat of force but actual belief is irrelevant.

[Nakia]

 Yonjurol what i think you are doing is replacing one faith or worship with another one.   Historically this is usually preceded by a time of chaos, bloodshed.  It may be brief but it still happens.    

 

To me the Real World arguments are moot as we are not dealing with the real world but with a fantasy world.  The real gods of PoE are the developers and they will be the ones who decide the fate of that world.  My hope is that they will not chicken out and go for an easy answer.  

[Varana]

 

Yes, I know, Tennisgolfboll is proving the bible wrong, but I can't let that pass: No, no one with a little bit of knowledge about the subject believed that the earth was flat, a thousand years ago.

First: No they didn't prove anything of the sort.  They did however make some odd claims.

 

 

In that first part, I was referring to TGB's claim that the bible was right because there are no trolls. Sorry, might've been a bit obscure. #explainingthejoke

 

---

That debate about what would happen if knowledge about the gods' origin were to spread, is exactly what PoE aims at. Would the world fall into chaos? The Engwithans seemed to believe so. Would the world be a better place without subservience to the gods? Iovara thought that. Or should people believe in things regardless of whether the gods are worth praying to or not? That's Edér's path.

PoE doesn't answer this question, and I'd say they particularly tried to avoid presenting one option as preferable.

 

---

 

 

So that's what makes the whole Iovara's rebellion kinda moot - people don't serve the gods for free, they serve for pay and they receive it. Whether the gods are artificial or not doesn't come strongly into this equation.

Very good point.

[*switch to reconsidering mode]

Edited June 17, 2015 by Varana