Pillars of eternity. Great game. But you messed up difficulty settings, costing you money for no reason

[Zwiebelchen]

 

as an aside, the beta experience for poe is illustrative when speaking o' difficulty. yes, more than a few aspects o' the beta were needing fine tuning as elder bears were ridiculous powerful and the dot from spiders was a bit harsh, but given that the developers had much greater control over player gear and level in the beta, it were useful for observing how relative difficulty were perhaps intended to work in poe.

 

the genesis poster notes that there is not a meaningful difference 'tween easy and hard. such were not the case in the beta. where levels and gear were controlled, there were a considerable difference 'tween normal and hard. oh sure, there is gonna be a few posters who feel the need to observe that they played the beta solo on hard difficulty with their monitor turned off and using only sound and feel to react and they still never had health drop below 50%. is always a few such folks. and yes, after playing literal dozens or hundreds o' times, the beta battles became ez regardless o' difficulty. even so, am gonna observe that the poe beta difficulty slider had a noteworthy and considerable impact on actual game difficulty.

 

also, 'cause an old gamer should be aware o' this fact, the two most common complaints for Every ie game were as follows:

 

the game was too difficult.

 

and

 

the game was too easy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Spot on.

 

The difference between easy and hard in this game is tiny.

 

Mainly the first bear cave and the final fight in the temple of eothas is the only noticeable differences (both of which are easy with a 4-6 man team)

 

That is odd.

 

Often hard adds like two trash enemies that gives extra loot and makes the fight feel more epic (bigger)

 

It does not add any real challenge and in contrast normal doesnt make it easier, not even easy makes it easier. Just very odd design choice.

 

Id say someone who plays on hard at the start learns the game alittle better from start and will have an easier time in the end (because thaos etc are the same on the settings) because of this.

 

So maybe hard isnt 10% harder than easy in the end, maybe its 5% easier.

 

 

I'd say most of the people complaining about the lack of difference between hard and easy never actually tried the difference and just assume things.

 

Hard does not just add 1-2 more creatures on every encounter. It also changes the abilities of enemies.

So, a spellcaster on hard does not have the same spell selection than a spellcaster on easy.

Thaos has a different spell selection on easy.

 

 

Obsidian could have went the cheap way, making the difficulty slider only affect stats. Instead, they went through the hassle to design 3 different encounter sets for every encounter. Yes, "hard" is undertuned. We get it. But at least players could show some appreciation for the extra effort Obsidian put into the difficulty settings.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

 

as an aside, the beta experience for poe is illustrative when speaking o' difficulty. yes, more than a few aspects o' the beta were needing fine tuning as elder bears were ridiculous powerful and the dot from spiders was a bit harsh, but given that the developers had much greater control over player gear and level in the beta, it were useful for observing how relative difficulty were perhaps intended to work in poe.

 

the genesis poster notes that there is not a meaningful difference 'tween easy and hard. such were not the case in the beta. where levels and gear were controlled, there were a considerable difference 'tween normal and hard. oh sure, there is gonna be a few posters who feel the need to observe that they played the beta solo on hard difficulty with their monitor turned off and using only sound and feel to react and they still never had health drop below 50%. is always a few such folks. and yes, after playing literal dozens or hundreds o' times, the beta battles became ez regardless o' difficulty. even so, am gonna observe that the poe beta difficulty slider had a noteworthy and considerable impact on actual game difficulty.

 

also, 'cause an old gamer should be aware o' this fact, the two most common complaints for Every ie game were as follows:

 

the game was too difficult.

 

and

 

the game was too easy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Spot on.

 

The difference between easy and hard in this game is tiny.

 

Mainly the first bear cave and the final fight in the temple of eothas is the only noticeable differences (both of which are easy with a 4-6 man team)

 

That is odd.

 

Often hard adds like two trash enemies that gives extra loot and makes the fight feel more epic (bigger)

 

It does not add any real challenge and in contrast normal doesnt make it easier, not even easy makes it easier. Just very odd design choice.

 

Id say someone who plays on hard at the start learns the game alittle better from start and will have an easier time in the end (because thaos etc are the same on the settings) because of this.

 

So maybe hard isnt 10% harder than easy in the end, maybe its 5% easier.

I'd say most of the people complaining about the lack of difference between hard and easy never actually tried the difference and just assume things.

 

Hard does not just add 1-2 more creatures on every encounter. It also changes the abilities of enemies.

So, a spellcaster on hard does not have the same spell selection than a spellcaster on easy.

Thaos has a different spell selection on easy.

 

 

Obsidian could have went the cheap way, making the difficulty slider only affect stats. Instead, they went through the hassle to design 3 different encounter sets for every encounter. Yes, "hard" is undertuned. We get it. But at least players could show some appreciation for the extra effort Obsidian put into the difficulty settings.

Yes it does.

 

Ive played the game on easy and on hard.

 

Most encounters is simply a few more trash mobs.

 

Thaos spell selection and wizards are the same

 

 

The interesting thing here isnt what the difference between easy, normal and hard is but how big it is.

 

And its a few percent harder each notch (easy, normal, hard) at most. This is flawed.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[wanderon]

But hard is not the "hardest" difficulty - for that they gave you PoTD which even without playing it I would wager is a lot of notches from easy or normal.

[Matt516]

But hard is not the "hardest" difficulty - for that they gave you PoTD which even without playing it I would wager is a lot of notches from easy or normal.

 

Most people's issue with PotD is that it's too different from Hard. I haven't played it yet so I can't speak from experience.

 

In general, after almost completing the game on Hard (will probably finish it tonight), my main gripe is that there are too many "trash" encounters. The good fights are really, really good. Master Below, Vithrack bounty, Ogre bounty, and (I've heard) Thaos are all great fights. There's just too many fights that are undertuned for an endgame party. But it's not like every single battle on Hard is too easy - just some of them.

 

I'm hopeful that the expansion will be better tuned and have a lot more challenging encounters. It's too late to overhaul anything in PoE on Obsidian's end (though I wouldn't be surprised if we got a few more smaller tuning changes), but I've no doubt they've heard this feedback and will be incorporating it into future releases. I can't wait for a TotSC-type expansion to really try my meticulously geared lvl 12 party out on.

[SlayerDorian]

 

The only real difficulty spike is a particular dragon.  It's also true that there is an inverse difficulty ramp at the beginning of the game - which is rather odd.

 

Thoas was a piece of cake - in fact, I was really expecting him to change into a second, more powerful, form or something after I wasted him the first time.  This was with premade companions before any stat fixes were patched in.

 

If the limit of camping supplies actually meant something, then the difficulty setting would immediately have more impact.  But, since you can just pop back to at inn via a few load screens (travel time means nothing in this game), you never really need to worry about fighting smart, conserving fire power, or conserving resources.  Ultimately, you don't ever need to worry about, or plan for, anything outside of a single encounter  This is a major source of why a few more monsters don't really make much difference.  It's as though there was intent to have a challenge of making it through (a dungeon, quest, or whatever unit you can think of) with only X amount of rests/resources, but was completely negated by traveling back and forth through the lands for nap having no consequence.

 

I agree that that particular dragon is a SERIOUS spike in difficulty.  So much so that my first two playthroughs I used the "other" way to get around the situation, if ya know what I mean.  Honestly though, that particular dragon almost felt so hard that it took too much of a cheesy approach to kill him, though I will concede that some people who may have an extremely good grasp of the game may be able to do it without cheese spamming certain spell scrolls.

 

And yes, I found Thaos to be not terribly difficult.  I beat him the first attempt in each of my 3 play throughs, the first play through, I hadn't even buffed my party with various long term pre-battle food and potions.  I will say though that if one doesn't do nearly enough of the side quests and gets to Thaos too soon at too low a level, you may have problems dealing with him.

 

And camping supplies would be more of a limit if one role-played the game more (in terms of managing one's camping supplies), rather than looking for every way to get around every rule and limit in the system.  However, if people refuse to role play the soft limits and then whine about how there are no limits ... A) maybe the problem is on those players and not the game itself, and/or B) devs might come up with a much more punishing, unfun system that a lot more players would absolutely hate than those who claim that camping supplies aren't really a limit.

 

I will say that it'd be nice if there were random encounters while traveling and there was a chance that resting in the wild could be interrupted by a random encounter, like in the old IE games.  Having your rest interrupted was annoying, and yet at the same time an interesting diversion.  You actually had to be careful where you rested, unlike in PoE where you can rest pretty much anywhere in the wild with no risk whatsoever of interruption.

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), it could easily be tuned per difficulty setting.  Those seeking a challenge might actually get it.  There are limitless complaints that hard isn't hard.  Heaven forbid someone suggest adding difficulty that isn't just tossing in even more monsters per encounter or giving monsters more HP/damage/special powers/whatever.  Respawning monsters is perhaps an ok middle ground.  I'd actually like to see both implemented in different places.  Given that monster exp caps after killing a certain number, as long as they aren't dropping too much loot on respawn then it shouldn't be an easily abused system.  Again, tuned to appropriate difficult settings so there is no room to complain.  "OMG hard is hard!"  - would be a nice thing to hear, I think.

 

Regarding random encounters, that is also extremely easy to side-step.  Just reload the save if you weren't really ready for that random encounter and go again.  Basically, it never happened.  It's really not random if the player has near absolute control over it.

 

As far as putting expectations on the player to "role play", or in other words, start creating their own rules that are more restrictive than the game rules.  That's never a good solution for a digital game.  It's nice to leave room for it, but it is never a good solution for game design to just say the players are the problem.  Hard not being hard is a design issue.

Edited May 28, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[Crucis]

 

 

The only real difficulty spike is a particular dragon.  It's also true that there is an inverse difficulty ramp at the beginning of the game - which is rather odd.

 

Thoas was a piece of cake - in fact, I was really expecting him to change into a second, more powerful, form or something after I wasted him the first time.  This was with premade companions before any stat fixes were patched in.

 

If the limit of camping supplies actually meant something, then the difficulty setting would immediately have more impact.  But, since you can just pop back to at inn via a few load screens (travel time means nothing in this game), you never really need to worry about fighting smart, conserving fire power, or conserving resources.  Ultimately, you don't ever need to worry about, or plan for, anything outside of a single encounter  This is a major source of why a few more monsters don't really make much difference.  It's as though there was intent to have a challenge of making it through (a dungeon, quest, or whatever unit you can think of) with only X amount of rests/resources, but was completely negated by traveling back and forth through the lands for nap having no consequence.

 

I agree that that particular dragon is a SERIOUS spike in difficulty.  So much so that my first two playthroughs I used the "other" way to get around the situation, if ya know what I mean.  Honestly though, that particular dragon almost felt so hard that it took too much of a cheesy approach to kill him, though I will concede that some people who may have an extremely good grasp of the game may be able to do it without cheese spamming certain spell scrolls.

 

And yes, I found Thaos to be not terribly difficult.  I beat him the first attempt in each of my 3 play throughs, the first play through, I hadn't even buffed my party with various long term pre-battle food and potions.  I will say though that if one doesn't do nearly enough of the side quests and gets to Thaos too soon at too low a level, you may have problems dealing with him.

 

And camping supplies would be more of a limit if one role-played the game more (in terms of managing one's camping supplies), rather than looking for every way to get around every rule and limit in the system.  However, if people refuse to role play the soft limits and then whine about how there are no limits ... A) maybe the problem is on those players and not the game itself, and/or B) devs might come up with a much more punishing, unfun system that a lot more players would absolutely hate than those who claim that camping supplies aren't really a limit.

 

I will say that it'd be nice if there were random encounters while traveling and there was a chance that resting in the wild could be interrupted by a random encounter, like in the old IE games.  Having your rest interrupted was annoying, and yet at the same time an interesting diversion.  You actually had to be careful where you rested, unlike in PoE where you can rest pretty much anywhere in the wild with no risk whatsoever of interruption.

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), it could easily be tuned per difficulty setting.  Those seeking a challenge might actually get it.  There are limitless complaints that hard isn't hard.  Heaven forbid someone suggest adding difficulty that isn't just tossing in even more monsters per encounter or giving monsters more HP/damage/special powers/whatever.  Respawning monsters is perhaps an ok middle ground.  I'd actually like to see both implemented in different places.  Given that monster exp caps after killing a certain number, as long as they aren't dropping too much loot on respawn then it shouldn't be an easily abused system.  Again, tuned to appropriate difficult settings so there is no room to complain.  "OMG hard is hard!"  - would be a nice thing to hear, I think.

 

Regarding random encounters, that is also extremely easy to side-step.  Just reload the save if you weren't really ready for that random encounter and go again.  Basically, it never happened.  It's really not random if the player has near absolute control over it.

 

As far as putting expectations on the player to "role play", or in other words, start creating their own rules that are more restrictive than the game rules.  That's never a good solution for a digital game.  It's nice to leave room for it, but it is never a good solution for game design to just say the players are the problem.  Hard not being hard is a design issue.

 

 

Hardly limitless.  Limitless implies infinite, and there are hardly an infinite number of players playing the game. 

 

As for people claiming that hard isn't hard, I suspect that these are the same people who are extreme min-maxing their characters.  So pardon me if I tune their complaints out.  When they're willing to play the game with less than totally OP, extreme min-maxed characters, then their complaints about the game difficulty or lack thereof will matter, because if the devs start scaling game difficulty to make Hard "hard" for the extreme min-maxers, how difficult do you think Hard is going to be for those who aren't extreme min-maxers?  Or those who are not hardcore IE and PoE game veterans?

 

As for your random encounter comments, if players are going to skirt the spirit of the game in this way, it's not the devs' problem.  It's the players' problem.

 

As for the final paragraph, it's not creating your own rules.  It's called playing within the "spirit of the rules", not just the "letter of the rules".  If you're not willing to play within the spirit of the rules, again, that's the players' problem not the devs' problem.

 

 

[luzarius]

I think Path of the damned on Trial of Iron delivers a spectular experience.  If I die, it's due to my own incompetence and not the game's fault.

 

The only fight that I can think of that is imbalanced is the bear cave in the start of the game.  If you go there solo as a level 1, you're gonna have a bad time no matter what difficulty you are on, in other words YOU GONNA DIE NO MATTER WHAT. When I first played Pillars it was on normal difficulty, trial of iron.  That bear cave demoralized the hell out of me, but later I found out it was an isolated incident.

 

Also, cassandra pentaghast looks like a man god damn it.

Edited May 29, 2015 by luzarius

[ManifestedISO]

nothing but women's golf for 48 uninterrupted hours.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Can confirm, ineffective as form of punishment. The backswing, there's a slight bounce and an intensity of sway that borders on hypnotic.  

 

48 uninterrupted hours of WNBA is number one recommended effective torture. 

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

 

The only real difficulty spike is a particular dragon.  It's also true that there is an inverse difficulty ramp at the beginning of the game - which is rather odd.

 

Thoas was a piece of cake - in fact, I was really expecting him to change into a second, more powerful, form or something after I wasted him the first time.  This was with premade companions before any stat fixes were patched in.

 

If the limit of camping supplies actually meant something, then the difficulty setting would immediately have more impact.  But, since you can just pop back to at inn via a few load screens (travel time means nothing in this game), you never really need to worry about fighting smart, conserving fire power, or conserving resources.  Ultimately, you don't ever need to worry about, or plan for, anything outside of a single encounter  This is a major source of why a few more monsters don't really make much difference.  It's as though there was intent to have a challenge of making it through (a dungeon, quest, or whatever unit you can think of) with only X amount of rests/resources, but was completely negated by traveling back and forth through the lands for nap having no consequence.

 

I agree that that particular dragon is a SERIOUS spike in difficulty.  So much so that my first two playthroughs I used the "other" way to get around the situation, if ya know what I mean.  Honestly though, that particular dragon almost felt so hard that it took too much of a cheesy approach to kill him, though I will concede that some people who may have an extremely good grasp of the game may be able to do it without cheese spamming certain spell scrolls.

 

And yes, I found Thaos to be not terribly difficult.  I beat him the first attempt in each of my 3 play throughs, the first play through, I hadn't even buffed my party with various long term pre-battle food and potions.  I will say though that if one doesn't do nearly enough of the side quests and gets to Thaos too soon at too low a level, you may have problems dealing with him.

 

And camping supplies would be more of a limit if one role-played the game more (in terms of managing one's camping supplies), rather than looking for every way to get around every rule and limit in the system.  However, if people refuse to role play the soft limits and then whine about how there are no limits ... A) maybe the problem is on those players and not the game itself, and/or B) devs might come up with a much more punishing, unfun system that a lot more players would absolutely hate than those who claim that camping supplies aren't really a limit.

 

I will say that it'd be nice if there were random encounters while traveling and there was a chance that resting in the wild could be interrupted by a random encounter, like in the old IE games.  Having your rest interrupted was annoying, and yet at the same time an interesting diversion.  You actually had to be careful where you rested, unlike in PoE where you can rest pretty much anywhere in the wild with no risk whatsoever of interruption.

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), it could easily be tuned per difficulty setting.  Those seeking a challenge might actually get it.  There are limitless complaints that hard isn't hard.  Heaven forbid someone suggest adding difficulty that isn't just tossing in even more monsters per encounter or giving monsters more HP/damage/special powers/whatever.  Respawning monsters is perhaps an ok middle ground.  I'd actually like to see both implemented in different places.  Given that monster exp caps after killing a certain number, as long as they aren't dropping too much loot on respawn then it shouldn't be an easily abused system.  Again, tuned to appropriate difficult settings so there is no room to complain.  "OMG hard is hard!"  - would be a nice thing to hear, I think.

 

Regarding random encounters, that is also extremely easy to side-step.  Just reload the save if you weren't really ready for that random encounter and go again.  Basically, it never happened.  It's really not random if the player has near absolute control over it.

 

As far as putting expectations on the player to "role play", or in other words, start creating their own rules that are more restrictive than the game rules.  That's never a good solution for a digital game.  It's nice to leave room for it, but it is never a good solution for game design to just say the players are the problem.  Hard not being hard is a design issue.

 

 

Hardly limitless.  Limitless implies infinite, and there are hardly an infinite number of players playing the game. 

 

As for people claiming that hard isn't hard, I suspect that these are the same people who are extreme min-maxing their characters.  So pardon me if I tune their complaints out.  When they're willing to play the game with less than totally OP, extreme min-maxed characters, then their complaints about the game difficulty or lack thereof will matter, because if the devs start scaling game difficulty to make Hard "hard" for the extreme min-maxers, how difficult do you think Hard is going to be for those who aren't extreme min-maxers?  Or those who are not hardcore IE and PoE game veterans?

 

As for your random encounter comments, if players are going to skirt the spirit of the game in this way, it's not the devs' problem.  It's the players' problem.

 

As for the final paragraph, it's not creating your own rules.  It's called playing within the "spirit of the rules", not just the "letter of the rules".  If you're not willing to play within the spirit of the rules, again, that's the players' problem not the devs' problem.

 

 

I think one of the main issues with Hard and PotD is, that the increased stats of PotD are not a toggle option that can be brought into hard aswell.

 

Currently it's:

 

Easy, Medium, Hard as three different creature sets.

PotD combining all them plus a severe stat boost for all enemies.

 

... which is why PotD is such an insane step upwards in difficulty. Not only do you fight masses of enemies, but they are also stronger.

 

I think the stat boost should be an optional toggle like expert mode is, so that it can be enabled on all difficulty sets.

 

So I can play with the creature and spell selection of hard mode, but with the stat boost to compensate for my own min/maxing. Or I can play with the insane amount of mobs of PotD without the increased stats, etc.

 

This would effectively create a middleground option between hard and PotD.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Namutree]

My first playthrough was on hard and i was shocked when i on my second tried easy (balance obsession). The difference was tiny, less loot on easy (less easy enemies) but the big baddies were just as hard (thaos etc).

You must be on crack. Thaos is WAAAAY easier on easy than hard.

[Namutree]

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), 

This will be the case if Obsidian takes my brilliant advice and adds a dungeon that you can't leave until you complete it. So long as players are aware of this fact before they enter it would be reasonable.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Namutree

[Gorbag]

 

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), 

This will be the case if Obsidian takes my brilliant advice and adds a dungeon that you can't leave until you complete it. So long as players are aware of this fact before they enter it would be reasonable.

 

You mean like Breith Eaman? 

[Namutree]

 

 

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), 

This will be the case if Obsidian takes my brilliant advice and adds a dungeon that you can't leave until you complete it. So long as players are aware of this fact before they enter it would be reasonable.

 

You mean like Breith Eaman? 

 

No cuz' you can't leave that dungeon at all. The game ends.

[Gorbag]

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, if the camping supply limit system were completed (as in, it is no longer trivial to side-step), 

This will be the case if Obsidian takes my brilliant advice and adds a dungeon that you can't leave until you complete it. So long as players are aware of this fact before they enter it would be reasonable.

 

You mean like Breith Eaman? 

 

No cuz' you can't leave that dungeon at all. The game ends.

 

That's an interesting thought, how do they leave that dungeon at all?

I'm sure there's a lift in there somewhere, but the gods keep quiet about it. They like to watch that leap of faith thing.

[Tennisgolfboll]

The point isnt that hard is to easy (which it is)

 

The point is easy is not easy. The difference between hard and easy on this game is tiny.

 

 

But people dont rage quit and skip expansions and new poe games because hard on trial of iron was easy. But they sure as hell does when easy is to hard.

 

This will cost us (who like the game, who play on hard etc) because less cash for obsidian means less games for us.

[Crucis]

The point isnt that hard is to easy (which it is)

 

The point is easy is not easy. The difference between hard and easy on this game is tiny.

 

 

But people dont rage quit and skip expansions and new poe games because hard on trial of iron was easy. But they sure as hell does when easy is to hard.

 

This will cost us (who like the game, who play on hard etc) because less cash for obsidian means less games for us.

 

It might be too easy, but not to easy.

[SlayerDorian]

Hardly limitless.  Limitless implies infinite, and there are hardly an infinite number of players playing the game. 

 

As for people claiming that hard isn't hard, I suspect that these are the same people who are extreme min-maxing their characters.  So pardon me if I tune their complaints out.  When they're willing to play the game with less than totally OP, extreme min-maxed characters, then their complaints about the game difficulty or lack thereof will matter, because if the devs start scaling game difficulty to make Hard "hard" for the extreme min-maxers, how difficult do you think Hard is going to be for those who aren't extreme min-maxers?  Or those who are not hardcore IE and PoE game veterans?

 

As for your random encounter comments, if players are going to skirt the spirit of the game in this way, it's not the devs' problem.  It's the players' problem.

 

As for the final paragraph, it's not creating your own rules.  It's called playing within the "spirit of the rules", not just the "letter of the rules".  If you're not willing to play within the spirit of the rules, again, that's the players' problem not the devs' problem.

 

 

Perhaps not quite limitless, but a heck of a lot more than I have time to read through.

 

I've been playing on Path of the Damned without min/maxed characters or even "ideal" party (not even using a fighter or cipher) members and it is actually quite easy for the most part.  I actually make it a point not to travel back to town to rest up.  I conserve fire power and fight smart.  However, I know this is a difficulty of my own creation, not really part of the game.  Which is a bit sad because it could be have been part of the design and truly be part of the game, not just some hole I filled in locally.  By playing in this manner, I have seen for myself that it is quite possible on PotD, without min/maxed characters.  So it is definitely not just a few min/maxers running around saying things are too easy.  They really are too easy.  In pretty much every fight that isn't trivial already, if I were to use all the summon items I have and unload spells like there's no tomorrow then the fight becomes trivial.  Aside from it being silly, there's nothing to stop me from waltzing back to town for a nap and reload of camping supplies.

[Crucis]

 

Hardly limitless.  Limitless implies infinite, and there are hardly an infinite number of players playing the game. 

 

As for people claiming that hard isn't hard, I suspect that these are the same people who are extreme min-maxing their characters.  So pardon me if I tune their complaints out.  When they're willing to play the game with less than totally OP, extreme min-maxed characters, then their complaints about the game difficulty or lack thereof will matter, because if the devs start scaling game difficulty to make Hard "hard" for the extreme min-maxers, how difficult do you think Hard is going to be for those who aren't extreme min-maxers?  Or those who are not hardcore IE and PoE game veterans?

 

As for your random encounter comments, if players are going to skirt the spirit of the game in this way, it's not the devs' problem.  It's the players' problem.

 

As for the final paragraph, it's not creating your own rules.  It's called playing within the "spirit of the rules", not just the "letter of the rules".  If you're not willing to play within the spirit of the rules, again, that's the players' problem not the devs' problem.

 

 

Perhaps not quite limitless, but a heck of a lot more than I have time to read through.

 

I've been playing on Path of the Damned without min/maxed characters or even "ideal" party (not even using a fighter or cipher) members and it is actually quite easy for the most part.  I actually make it a point not to travel back to town to rest up.  I conserve fire power and fight smart.  However, I know this is a difficulty of my own creation, not really part of the game.  Which is a bit sad because it could be have been part of the design and truly be part of the game, not just some hole I filled in locally.  By playing in this manner, I have seen for myself that it is quite possible on PotD, without min/maxed characters.  So it is definitely not just a few min/maxers running around saying things are too easy.  They really are too easy.  In pretty much every fight that isn't trivial already, if I were to use all the summon items I have and unload spells like there's no tomorrow then the fight becomes trivial.  Aside from it being silly, there's nothing to stop me from waltzing back to town for a nap and reload of camping supplies.

 

 

A.  It's nice that you're playing with in the actual spirit of the game and its rules.  Kudos to you. 

 

B.  But maybe not everyone is as skilled as you are.  Maybe some people don't care to (or remember to) use those summoning items.  (Honestly, I never buy them, but will keep the ones I find.  And even then, I only rarely use them.)

 

In truth, my first 3 full run-throughs of the game have been on Normal, and I won't say that all that many battles have been particularly difficult.  That said, I'm not a freaking masochist who's looking for battles to be brutally difficult, like a certain rather large ardra creature that even in Normal mode seems to all but require the use of very high level spells to beat.  I skipped that creature in my first two runs after making a few failed attempts to defeat it, then reloading and just choosing to talk my way out of the situation instead.  Only on my 3rd run, did I dig my heals in and decide that the creature was going down.  Frankly, IMO, this creature was entirely too difficult for Normal level and required too much cheese to beat, whereas the other "creature" of its kind (further to the east, and at a much higher altitude) was entirely manageable.

 

C. As for nothing stopping you from going back to town for a nap, well, nothing but your choice to play by the spirit of the rules.  That said, if something was put in place to actually stop you from doing this, it could also stop people from retreating from a location, not because they were running out of camping supplies, but because the player decided that the area was too difficult for his party.  Or for that matter, what if you've played by the spirit of the rules, conserved your spells well, used all your camping supplies, but for whatever reason, you've run into a situation where you're out of spells (or nearly so) and out of camping supplies and have characters who are dangerously low on health?  Why shouldn't you be able to retreat to rest and heal up, and resupply your party?  To my mind, there's nothing wrong from a role-playing perspective with turning back in a situation like that.

 

It seems to me that if you create something to prevent abuse of running back to town for a quick rest, you run the risk of punishing the players who do it right and play within the spirit of the rules.

 

 

 

But for yucks, here's one idea that might ... might ... work.  Instead of having a hard time limit on completing the mission (let's say, clearing a dungeon and perhaps finding whatever you were sent to find), maybe have the amount of XP you earn tied to the amount of time it takes you to complete the mission, starting from the moment you start the mission (i.e. enter the dungeon the first time).  There could be a base amount of XP that you earn no matter how much you abuse resting and so on.  But there could also be bonuses for completing the mission in under X amount of time.  Also, I'd be careful about which missions were treated this way.  For example, the dungeon literally under Gilded Vale.  Why shouldn't a arty climb out and rest in the inn rather than rest in the dungeon?  We're talking about climbing out of glorified basement and walking over to a nearby inn here, not talking about climbing out of some deep dark cave dozens of miles in the middle of nowhere.  

 

And the Endless Paths should probably be treated much differently as well, because of its design.  From what I've seen, the EP really isn't meant to be cleared all at once.  I think that it's meant to be cleared over several sessions.  Go in, clear a level or 2.  Leave, go do other stuff.  Gain a a level or 2.  Come back do more of the EP.  Rinse and repeat until the EP is done.

 

Anyways, just a thought....

[HoopleDoople]

As fun as this game is I definitely believe it could use improvements to the difficulty. Here's my take on how to tackle the most commonly mentioned problems, if not for this game then perhaps for a sequel.

 

1) PoTD is too significant of a jump from hard

 

Solution - patch the game to smooth out the difficulty progression with both stats and enemy density increasing as the difficulty goes up. Also introduce the concept of custom difficulties, which would allow for the enemy stat increase and density to be set independently. 

 

2) PoTD isn't hard enough for expert players

 

Solution - allow the custom difficulties we introduced above to allow for enemy stat increases and densities even higher than what is currently found on PoTD. Eventually it would be nice to introduce improved enemy AI. Ideally enemy AI would get more intelligent as the preset difficulty is increased and have its own slider for custom difficulties.

 

3) Players can rest after almost every single battle if they so desire, which makes standard encounters too easy

 

Solution - I can't really come up with any brilliant fix for PoE, but a sequel could be designed from the start to avoid this problem. One possibility is to include "expedition" style quests where players are unable to leave the area to replenish supplies until they either complete or abandon the quest (players could redo abandoned quests at a later time). Any content outside of these expeditions would involve significantly harder fights with the understanding that players could and likely would be resting frequently.

 

4) The difficulty curve is kind of backwards - the game gets easier as it progresses

 

Solution - a good start would be make early encounters slightly easier and harder encounters slightly harder, but more fundamental issues would likely need to be addressed in a sequel. One big problem is that in later acts player effectiveness is highly variable - completionists will be far better equipped than those rushing through the main quests. The first key to solving this issue is tighter pacing - with content introduced at a more controlled pace it is easier to understand and account for the maximum and minimum party strength. The exponential increases in experience gained and needed to level as the game progresses keeps level disparities in check if set properly. Fewer side quests available at any one time should prevent players from amassing a large set of end-game items too early.

 

Another issue is the existence of mass crowd control spells (stun, paralyze, charm, dominate, etc.). Once these become available using a spell like Returning Storm is effectively an instant win, at least on lower difficulties. Having stats scale up smoothly across difficulties would definitely help reduce the effectiveness of these abilities. I would also recommend looking into giving certain enemies proactive and reactive answers to crowd control to supplement the resistance provided by defensive stats.

Edited May 29, 2015 by HoopleDoople

[SlayerDorian]

 

 

Hardly limitless.  Limitless implies infinite, and there are hardly an infinite number of players playing the game. 

 

As for people claiming that hard isn't hard, I suspect that these are the same people who are extreme min-maxing their characters.  So pardon me if I tune their complaints out.  When they're willing to play the game with less than totally OP, extreme min-maxed characters, then their complaints about the game difficulty or lack thereof will matter, because if the devs start scaling game difficulty to make Hard "hard" for the extreme min-maxers, how difficult do you think Hard is going to be for those who aren't extreme min-maxers?  Or those who are not hardcore IE and PoE game veterans?

 

As for your random encounter comments, if players are going to skirt the spirit of the game in this way, it's not the devs' problem.  It's the players' problem.

 

As for the final paragraph, it's not creating your own rules.  It's called playing within the "spirit of the rules", not just the "letter of the rules".  If you're not willing to play within the spirit of the rules, again, that's the players' problem not the devs' problem.

 

 

Perhaps not quite limitless, but a heck of a lot more than I have time to read through.

 

I've been playing on Path of the Damned without min/maxed characters or even "ideal" party (not even using a fighter or cipher) members and it is actually quite easy for the most part.  I actually make it a point not to travel back to town to rest up.  I conserve fire power and fight smart.  However, I know this is a difficulty of my own creation, not really part of the game.  Which is a bit sad because it could be have been part of the design and truly be part of the game, not just some hole I filled in locally.  By playing in this manner, I have seen for myself that it is quite possible on PotD, without min/maxed characters.  So it is definitely not just a few min/maxers running around saying things are too easy.  They really are too easy.  In pretty much every fight that isn't trivial already, if I were to use all the summon items I have and unload spells like there's no tomorrow then the fight becomes trivial.  Aside from it being silly, there's nothing to stop me from waltzing back to town for a nap and reload of camping supplies.

 

 

A.  It's nice that you're playing with in the actual spirit of the game and its rules.  Kudos to you. 

 

B.  But maybe not everyone is as skilled as you are.  Maybe some people don't care to (or remember to) use those summoning items.  (Honestly, I never buy them, but will keep the ones I find.  And even then, I only rarely use them.)

 

In truth, my first 3 full run-throughs of the game have been on Normal, and I won't say that all that many battles have been particularly difficult.  That said, I'm not a freaking masochist who's looking for battles to be brutally difficult, like a certain rather large ardra creature that even in Normal mode seems to all but require the use of very high level spells to beat.  I skipped that creature in my first two runs after making a few failed attempts to defeat it, then reloading and just choosing to talk my way out of the situation instead.  Only on my 3rd run, did I dig my heals in and decide that the creature was going down.  Frankly, IMO, this creature was entirely too difficult for Normal level and required too much cheese to beat, whereas the other "creature" of its kind (further to the east, and at a much higher altitude) was entirely manageable.

 

C. As for nothing stopping you from going back to town for a nap, well, nothing but your choice to play by the spirit of the rules.  That said, if something was put in place to actually stop you from doing this, it could also stop people from retreating from a location, not because they were running out of camping supplies, but because the player decided that the area was too difficult for his party.  Or for that matter, what if you've played by the spirit of the rules, conserved your spells well, used all your camping supplies, but for whatever reason, you've run into a situation where you're out of spells (or nearly so) and out of camping supplies and have characters who are dangerously low on health?  Why shouldn't you be able to retreat to rest and heal up, and resupply your party?  To my mind, there's nothing wrong from a role-playing perspective with turning back in a situation like that.

 

It seems to me that if you create something to prevent abuse of running back to town for a quick rest, you run the risk of punishing the players who do it right and play within the spirit of the rules.

 

 

 

But for yucks, here's one idea that might ... might ... work.  Instead of having a hard time limit on completing the mission (let's say, clearing a dungeon and perhaps finding whatever you were sent to find), maybe have the amount of XP you earn tied to the amount of time it takes you to complete the mission, starting from the moment you start the mission (i.e. enter the dungeon the first time).  There could be a base amount of XP that you earn no matter how much you abuse resting and so on.  But there could also be bonuses for completing the mission in under X amount of time.  Also, I'd be careful about which missions were treated this way.  For example, the dungeon literally under Gilded Vale.  Why shouldn't a arty climb out and rest in the inn rather than rest in the dungeon?  We're talking about climbing out of glorified basement and walking over to a nearby inn here, not talking about climbing out of some deep dark cave dozens of miles in the middle of nowhere.  

 

And the Endless Paths should probably be treated much differently as well, because of its design.  From what I've seen, the EP really isn't meant to be cleared all at once.  I think that it's meant to be cleared over several sessions.  Go in, clear a level or 2.  Leave, go do other stuff.  Gain a a level or 2.  Come back do more of the EP.  Rinse and repeat until the EP is done.

 

Anyways, just a thought....

 

 

A. Thanks

 

B. True, this is what less extreme difficulty settings are for.  I do agree that said adra creature is a bit much for normal.  It's also sad how petrification is pretty much instant win the situation - makes for a very non-epic battle.  There are clearly some finer details in the balance of this game that should be worked out a bit.

 

As far as not buying or using summoning items, well, where do you draw the line at that point?  Not using weapons?  Not using buff spells?  Not using attack spells?  When considering the balance design, one must consider all of the tools in the game that are available to the player.

 

C. Here is where most people look at the situation incorrectly.  It doesn't need to be an all or nothing thing, though it is no surprise that many would have this knee-jerk reaction.  This is where true game design skill and talent can shine.  The fact that limited camping supplies is effectively negated due to no downside of traveling time back to town to rest is not debatable.  However, the solution to the problem is.  Your idea of a slider-type reward based on how long it took is a solid foundation.  However, experience is definitely not the way to go.  People who are seeking challenge are also the ones calling out that exp gain is too fast and you can easily out level much of the game content.  You'd end up with those who are really good at the game gaining exp even faster, thus out leveling the rest of the game even more-so.  Though, a mix of special items (as long as they aren't too overpowereing), cool story stuff, perhaps even new story branches, unlocking new companions, and many other things that won't unbalance the game could be great.  There are many other ways to add value to time as well, the sky is the limit - and it doesn't have to be extremely harsh, especially on lower difficulties, just present.