Journalism and Bias in the Gaming Industry

[Oerwinde]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah it is? Slavic culture is less equal than chinese, african or indian culture because the value of their culture is overriden by the fact that they're white and there's already so much white stuff. That's what the text says. Regardless of the fact that there are very few slavs or slavic cultures in games, much less so I would say than there is chinese culture. You can't put a slav, despite of his culture or the fact that slavs are second class citizens and discriminated against on the level of any other minority in Europe, in an African story because he is white (that would be whitewashing, which is bad) but you must put African people in a slavic story because they are not white (that would be racebending, which is good). Slavs are "white" and therefore don't count towards "diversity" because skin color is all that matters. You have to do a whole lot of semantic nonsense of to get to an interpretation of that text where the writer is not a terrible human being.

 

I dunno, I'm your generic eastern european mix of slavic, germanic and god knows what else, and didn't really feel the article was trying to erase me or my culture.

Well, this is more about what the text says and not what you feel, is it not?

When the argument is that it's exactly like racist grandparents yelling about "pollacks stealing our jobs", I think it might matter whether I feel that comparison holds water or not.

 

Also, I feel we leave out vital context when we interpret the text as the author arguing for "slavic culture [being] less than chinese". The article was responding to the very specific argument that the Witcher's world not featuring people of color is exactly like a story based on Indian mythology not featuring white people. It's saying that the two things are not even remotely alike when you view it from a wider cultural perspective, which is... actually kind of reasonable?

 

I mean, if you read the entire article, I'd argue it's not even about the Witcher, much less about condemning CD Projekt for the lack of diversity.

I dont get why devs from a country that is 98.6% white has to worry about diversity.

[Nonek]

The northern kingdoms are a barbaric backwoods, if one wants diversity then one should travel to the southern reaches of Nilfgaard, Zerrikania and points south. With the war, the intolerance of the natives, the inhospitable nature of travel without modern travel networks and the danger of the wilderness being enhanced by post conjunction creatures, well the absence of exotic races in Novigrad, Velen and especially Skellige is warranted, and fits with the narrative.

 

I'm all for diversity, but i'm for diversity practised in an internally consistent manner, such as the appearance of Azar Javed in the first Witcher. Being a powerful sorcerer he may utilise teleportation and his fearsome abilities to travel in relative safety, and obviously has done to reach Ban Aard.

 

Besides if you want diversity Geralt is not technically of the Human species anymore, Dwarves and Gnomes are their own species, the post conjunction creatures are even more weird, never mind the inter-dimensional fascist Elves.

 

Edit: Funny how racism directed against eastern Europeans has become acceptable lately, personally I find it sickening, one has Fleet street rags preaching open xenophobia, and now this moronic article which is let's face it published just because Mr Geis was told off by a proud Slav. Then again why am I surprised #killallmen after all, morality is a foreign concept to these degenerates.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Nonek

[aluminiumtrioxid]

And none of this is the point of the article, making attempts at communication an exercise in frustration.

[Nonek]

Yes they argue that they want to invalidate any internal consistency and cast out any pre-established lore to make room for clumsy insertion of minorities to fill token positions, insulting to both the minority and the artists vision. It's idiotic and laughable.

[Oerwinde]

Saying that a story based on Slavic mythology is problematic for not including brown people while a story based on indian mythology not including white people isn't only makes sense if you are a crazy person or a racist.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Saying that a story based on Slavic mythology is problematic for not including brown people while a story based on indian mythology not including white people isn't only makes sense if you are a crazy person or a racist.

 

Your absolute tone-deafness and inability to look at things in a wider cultural context would be a lot less jarring if you at least managed to avoid insulting everybody who doesn't happen to agree with you.

[Nonek]

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it (...) did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic.

 

Wait what.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

There's been plenty of games based on Asian mythology/fantasy featuring Asian characters without many non-Asians, so I'm not seeing the issue.

[Oerwinde]

 

 

Saying that a story based on Slavic mythology is problematic for not including brown people while a story based on indian mythology not including white people isn't only makes sense if you are a crazy person or a racist.

Your absolute tone-deafness and inability to look at things in a wider cultural context would be a lot less jarring if you at least managed to avoid insulting everybody who doesn't happen to agree with you.

The wider cultural contex argument might hold water if the game in question wasnt developed by a polish dev based in a polish story, for a polish publisher, in Poland, where the idea of minority representation just isn't an issue because minorities are statistically irrelevant.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Saying that a story based on Slavic mythology is problematic for not including brown people while a story based on indian mythology not including white people isn't only makes sense if you are a crazy person or a racist.

Your absolute tone-deafness and inability to look at things in a wider cultural context would be a lot less jarring if you at least managed to avoid insulting everybody who doesn't happen to agree with you.

The wider cultural contex argument might hold water if the game in question wasnt developed by a polish dev based in a polish story, for a polish publisher, in Poland...

 

 

...aimed at the global market, making it just as fair a target for cultural criticism as any other game.

 

Or do you think Eastern Europeans are somehow inherently incapable of grasping the terribly difficult concept of minority representation because we don't have black people over here?

Edited June 3, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Oerwinde]

I'm saying it shouldn't matter. White people don't have a responsibility to tell stories about brown people, and vice versa.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm saying it shouldn't matter. White people don't have a responsibility to tell stories about brown people, and vice versa.

 

Absolutely. It's totally a fair thing to say "we don't think minority representation is a priority in our game". It's a valid artistic choice. But a (minority) consumer's choice to not buy the game based on this artistic choice is just as valid, which is the entire point of the article.

[Nonek]

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it (...) did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic.

 

Wait what.

 

 

I can't be any clearer, i used plain English.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it (...) did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic.

 

Wait what.

 

 

I can't be any clearer, i used plain English.

 

 

Some examples of those much-vaunted "unique and exotic Slavic cultural mores" would help clearing up my confusion. Because I haven't really ran into anything of the sort.

[Nonek]

Folktales such as are used in the fourth chapter of the first game, ripped straight from Slavic folklore almost word for word apparently, very new and interesting to me. The unique little nods such as the ram near the Kayran, harking to another folktale. The architecture and artistic design of Vizima, Flotsam and various other locales. The creatures and monsters drawn from Slavic folklore, though there are many drawn from other myths as well. The political situations and stances that parallel the Teutonic crusades into Slavic lands. Etcetera.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Folktales such as are used in the fourth chapter of the first game, ripped straight from Slavic folklore almost word for word apparently, very new and interesting to me. The unique little nods such as the ram near the Kayran, harking to another folktale. The architecture and artistic design of Vizima, Flotsam and various other locales. The creatures and monsters drawn from Slavic folklore, though there are many drawn from other myths as well. The political situations and stances that parallel the Teutonic crusades into Slavic lands. Etcetera.

 

So, basically, not mores.

[Nonek]

Yes there are more ancient Slavic mores used throughout in addition to what i've already listed: The treatment of the cunning folk and Wiedzmin, the religious practises unique to the northern kingdoms. Abused morals as well such as Foltest's relationship with his sister, frowned upon and birthing mostrosities such as the Striga as just punishment. Pagan ideoligies which inform much of the game and stand in contrast to the new ways being heralded in, representing Christianity in my view. The significance of the oak tree ceremonially that endured in Pagan worship.

 

Edit: Of course I could focus on the importance of family, and friends forming an extended family, which Geralt does seek as an orphan cast out of the typical tight knit structure of society. The importance of introductions and proper titles, along with the importance of gift giving that the first game really focuses upon. I've always felt that these were too widespread in Europe as a whole however, and resembled other areas mores. Still valid I suppose and not seen in other games.

 

Oh and I forgot the drinking, of course.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Nonek

[Zoraptor]

On the Steam refunds thing (probably more constructive than yet another argument about whether Twitcher/ Kingdom Come/ etc need to kowtow to SanFran hipster 'cultural marxofascism'/ should embrace enlightened modernist cultural sensitivity; only answer is that people should make the games they want whether they be neanderthal slavic cultural supremacists or lentil eating social justice coders, the market can sort out whether there are buyers) there is a very obvious point- why would someone abuse the system by going to the trouble of buying it on steam, then going to the inevitable rigmarole of dealing with Steam 'Support' in order to get a 'free' copy of a game when they could just... torrent it? And it seems fairly likely you'd get store credit in many cases as well, so you'd still have spent the money, plus they will be looking for abuse of the system. Same with the complaints from some about GOG's refund policy with them being DRM free, it's always easier just to torrent the game than get it legit then go for a refund. Pretty much definitely people worrying about the ability to refund for games being 'crap' where previously the buyer would have been SOoL.

 

In any case I rather suspect for a lot of games on steam requesting a refund would have a greater cost in terms of time wasted getting the refund than just eating the cost of a bad decision and chalking it up to experience. If anyone lives deep enough in outraeg!!!ville to get upset about buying a bad 2$ game to demand a refund then, hmm, it is their time and money I guess.

 

(Credit where it's due, steam's new policy is in some ways actually a bit better even than our Consumer's Guarantee Act which forced a pretty similar policy on Steam for NZ buyers even before the update; though they still have games as being licensed rather than the products the CGA defines software as)

Edited June 4, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Volourn]

"Also, I feel we leave out vital context when we interpret the text as the author arguing for "slavic culture [being] less than chinese". The article was responding to the very specific argument that the Witcher's world not featuring people of color is exactly like a story based on Indian mythology not featuring white people. It's saying that the two things are not even remotely alike when you view it from a wider cultural perspective, which is... actually kind of reasonable?"

 

ARE YOU INSANE!?!

 

Why are you so racist?

 

The fact you cna't see the double standard at all there is crazy.

 

Also, why do you belittle and insult non white cultures? Do you think so little of them that you mock them and call them and weak and pathetic?

 

Asia game companies say hello. Bollywood says hello.

\

Stop being a bigot.

\

From a 'wider culture perspective'. LMAO

[BruceVC]

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

 

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

[Meshugger]

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

 

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

 

 

The big deal is 

 

1) Is that it is quite racist to include minorities for the sake of them being minorities.

2) The double standard. No one is forcing the Japanese/Asian market to include whites or blacks in their games.

 

 

I'm saying it shouldn't matter. White people don't have a responsibility to tell stories about brown people, and vice versa.

 

Absolutely. It's totally a fair thing to say "we don't think minority representation is a priority in our game". It's a valid artistic choice. But a (minority) consumer's choice to not buy the game based on this artistic choice is just as valid, which is the entire point of the article.

 

 

Their loss for their own stupidity then. With that mindset, i would've never played any of the Final Fantasy games. Why on earth Polygon thinks that this is good idea stems either from something very sinister or just very ignorant.

[ShadySands]

As a minority speaking for only one minority (hint: it's me) I can't say I care that nobody looks like me in a game based fantasy version of a time and place where nobody looked like me.

 

But that's just me and others may hold a wro.. uh, different opinion

[Fighter]

I'm saying it shouldn't matter. White people don't have a responsibility to tell stories about brown people, and vice versa.

 

This.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I for one would not have been half as interested in the Witcher if it had not built up a great sense of internal consistency in its gameworld, if it had had the usual boring AD&D setting, or did not include the Slavic cultural mores which made it so unique and exotic. Then again we can't have something unique, distinct and rare can we? We've got to turn everything into a dull paint by numbers politically correct sermon.

 

But its really a fantasy realm so why not just include minorities? It can still be very Slavic but I don't see the big deal?

 

 

The big deal is 

 

1) Is that it is quite racist to include minorities for the sake of them being minorities.

2) The double standard. No one is forcing the Japanese/Asian market to include whites or blacks in their games.

 

I know I will fail to convince you but its not racist if its intention is to be inclusive and we don't need  other cultures to prompt the white\European race...we already dominate on most levels 

Edited June 4, 2015 by BruceVC