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Prevent Dump Stats

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When a Fighter with the "might" of a toddler and the "dexterity" of a geriatric makes a great tank it breaks all immersion.

 

We need restrictions on item use - no heavy armor for weak chars, for example - and no stat should be lower than 7 without the char having to deal with major penalties.

 

Of course this is a single player game so i see your point, it just seems silly to me.

 

But in PoE, 'Might=3' is not the might of a toddler but of a weaker adventurer - these are not D&D numbers, these are a new scale with less severe swings than seen in (A)D&D

(though having movement penalties for wearing heavy armour with low might could be a good idea).


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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When a Fighter with the "might" of a toddler and the "dexterity" of a geriatric makes a great tank it breaks all immersion.

 

We need restrictions on item use - no heavy armor for weak chars, for example - and no stat should be lower than 7 without the char having to deal with major penalties.

 

Of course this is a single player game so i see your point, it just seems silly to me.

 

But in PoE, 'Might=3' is not the might of a toddler but of a weaker adventurer - these are not D&D numbers, these are a new scale with less severe swings than seen in (A)D&D

(though having movement penalties for wearing heavy armour with low might could be a good idea).

 

So there is one scale for "adventurers" and one for the peasents? Is there a source for this?

 

If 10 is the average -' might' for example- and 18 (19) is Arnold Schwarzenegger, someone with a 'might' of 3 should crumble under his own equipment.

 

Similarly, an adventurer with an 'Intellect' of 3 shouldn't be allowed to adventure without a carer and protective headgear (so no godlikes).

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Might=strength is a risky analogy. I like the might stat, but trying to define what it represents is beyond tricky when it boosts all kinds of damage, including that of spells.

 

Your fireball did only 40 damage? Do you even lift, bro?


Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip.

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When a Fighter with the "might" of a toddler and the "dexterity" of a geriatric makes a great tank it breaks all immersion.

 

We need restrictions on item use - no heavy armor for weak chars, for example - and no stat should be lower than 7 without the char having to deal with major penalties.

 

Of course this is a single player game so i see your point, it just seems silly to me.

 

But in PoE, 'Might=3' is not the might of a toddler but of a weaker adventurer - these are not D&D numbers, these are a new scale with less severe swings than seen in (A)D&D

(though having movement penalties for wearing heavy armour with low might could be a good idea).

 

So there is one scale for "adventurers" and one for the peasents? Is there a source for this?

 

If 10 is the average -' might' for example- and 18 (19) is Arnold Schwarzenegger, someone with a 'might' of 3 should crumble under his own equipment.

 

Similarly, an adventurer with an 'Intellect' of 3 shouldn't be allowed to adventure without a carer and protective headgear (so no godlikes).

 

No - but a peasant isn't a toddler - they work on a farm for example and have muscles to match ;)

Where are you getting 18 is Arnie?


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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Might=strength is a risky analogy. I like the might stat, but trying to define what it represents is beyond tricky when it boosts all kinds of damage, including that of spells.

 

Your fireball did only 40 damage? Do you even lift, bro?

 

According to PoE "Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength".

 

@silent winter: 18 (19) is as strong as humanly possible, so it was either Arnie or my dad. ;)

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^Ah, ok - Arnie's not the stongest but ok.

Just going by what I heard - 3 does not equal barely capable of holding own weight up.


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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The sawyer system is pure garbage. pure garbage.

You have a backline of 3res 3con t-shirt wearing heavy hitters and a front line of high con full armor damage sponges, with a stat system that is both broken, full of dump stats and makes no sense, with might/dex being the rulers of all for all classes.

To top it all off, all character classes are as boring as hell when compared to D&D classes with all their interesting kits, specializations, feats etc.

 

For comparison:

 

D&D ranger gets auto-dual wield benefits with levels, basic druid spells, a huge choice of feats to specialize with weapons and fighting styles, an animal companion which he can unsummon, speaking with animals, special perks that allow him to avoid area-damage effects fully on a save, the ability to disappear in plain sight in nature, if high enough hide/move silently abilities, etc, and that is before interesting kits like beastmaster, archer, etc that offer more special perks and specialization.

 

POE ranger has a pet that usually dies and makes him suck at combat, a couple of archer accuracy perks and a shot that slows enemies. That's it.

 

 

 

 

 

Sawyersystem is full on failure, and ruined this game for me. That and the "cut-paste" enemy groups and infinity

Edited by Lightzy

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I'd like to see low stats affect dialogue options, the same as high stats do. At the moment, if you pick perception 3 and resolve 18, you'll get far more dialogue options than someone with 10 of each. That's not right.

 

There's no need to invest in special low int dialogues or whatever. Just take away options from a low-stat character that a normal character would have.

 

A character with intellect 3 is dumber than a hunter's pet. The only dialogue options available to them should be [stoic] or [Aggressive], and perhaps the occasional [Passionate] or [Cruel].

 

A character with perception 3 is probably either blind or deaf (or both). So take away parts of the descriptions that accompany the dialogue.

 

Someone with resolve 3 is probably so deformed or quirky no-one takes them seriously. So take away dialogue options where they get to be a leader.

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Dump Stats are a killer for me in any RPG system. I deliberately don't do it - but the doubt sown into my mind by the posts of others giving themselves 3 constitution or 3 might or whatever definitely impact my opinion of a game and likelihood of playing it.

 

Why not just make bonuses and penalties less uniform. I mean, not a set +3% per point or whatever, but +1% at 11, +3% at 12, +6% 13, +10% 14, +15% 15 etc you get the picture and the same in reverse.

 

So a score of 3 gives a huge penalty and 20 a huge gain.

 

Straight away that makes any extreme ability choice more interesting.

 

Of course, you can play a slightly above average character rather than take any extremes, which some may say is dull. But closing minmaxing stat exploits must be worth it.

 

Or maybe they/you already thought of this and came up with some drawback?

 

Your proposed system would make me more likely to dump less useful stats in order to get the stats that are more useful for my character's role in the party bc the upside of maximizing the stats that governed my character's primary role would be much more beneficial than the other stats. E.g., if I wanted a low damage tank, per, res, and con would be much more important to my character than intel, might, or dex so the discrepancy between a build with, e.g., all 12s, and a build with maxed per, res, and con would be even greater than it is now. Now, I didn't dump any stat below 8, partly for RP reasons, but if your suggestion were implemented I would have a hard time not further dumping con on my character bc the rewards for pumping intel, might, and dex would be greater than they are now. (I realize the penalties for dumping con and, to a lesser extent, per and res would be greater too but those attributes are not as important for my build.)

 

I agree with others that a large part of the problem in PoE is that tank and spank works too well and is very useful in too many encounters, which encourages players to build a high deflection character that can dump might, dex, and intel or a high damage character that can dump resolve, per, and con. Better AI would help tremendously here (as mentioned by View619). If the AI ignored characters who had low might and dex and targeted characters who were more likely to damage the enemies, a pure tank (low damage) build would be much less useful and the damage dealers would need to worry more about defensive stats.

Edited by oaktownbrown

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What's the problem with dump stats really? You're speaking about it as if it was something bad. Should the optimal build have 13 in all stats in an ideal world? What's the point and where's the character building then?

Edited by MadDemiurg

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I've never understood what the big deal is with dump stats. Real life has dump stats depending on what your line of work is.

From longtime Magic the Gathering design czar Mark Rosewater:

Game (and puzzle) design is very different from most types of design. For example, let's say you're designing a lamp. You want every component of the lamp to be as obvious as possible. The switch to turn it on should be where you would expect it to be and the switch should be as simple as possible – most likely on/off. Every element of the lamp from how to move the light to what plugs in should be as clear and intuitive as possible. The goal of lamp design is to make the lamp easy to use.

 

Game design though isn't about removing obstacles but adding them. Let's suppose that a game designer set out to design a game lamp. Well, how to turn on the lamp wouldn't be obvious. The switch wouldn't be where you expect it or even necessarily look like a switch. How the lamp moved or plugged in would not be simple and the reason being that the point of a game lamp would be for users to figure it out.

Game design != life design, therefore your argument is invalid.

 

 

A CCG designer is not an authority on RPG design, so I'd actually say your argument is the one that's invalid.  I actually think the biggest issue with PoE's attributes is that they tried to make a system that didn't have dump stats.  In trying to fix a problem that didn't actually exist they only made a screwy system that doesn't make much sense.

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Might isn't just physical strength, it's the ability to harness the power of the soul to perform super human feats of strength and healing. So, having a Might of 3 could easily mean that you're able to go about your day to day tasks without difficulty, but when it comes to making use of your "power" to effectively attack a monster, cast a damaging spell or heal a person's weariness you completely fail at it.

 

The problem is not the POE attributes, it's people trying to replace them with D&D attributes. It's basically their lack of understanding and refusal to accept that D&D doesn't have a monopoly on character attributes.

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The sawyer system is pure garbage. pure garbage.

You have a backline of 3res 3con t-shirt wearing heavy hitters and a front line of high con full armor damage sponges, with a stat system that is both broken, full of dump stats and makes no sense, with might/dex being the rulers of all for all classes.

To top it all off, all character classes are as boring as hell when compared to D&D classes with all their interesting kits, specializations, feats etc.

 

For comparison:

 

D&D ranger gets auto-dual wield benefits with levels, basic druid spells, a huge choice of feats to specialize with weapons and fighting styles, an animal companion which he can unsummon, speaking with animals, special perks that allow him to avoid area-damage effects fully on a save, the ability to disappear in plain sight in nature, if high enough hide/move silently abilities, etc, and that is before interesting kits like beastmaster, archer, etc that offer more special perks and specialization.

 

POE ranger has a pet that usually dies and makes him suck at combat, a couple of archer accuracy perks and a shot that slows enemies. That's it.

 

Sawyersystem is full on failure, and ruined this game for me. That and the "cut-paste" enemy groups and infinity

Riiight. Reason for backline/frontline dichotomy being so absurdly pronounced is abysmal AI, not the stat system. Might/Dex are really not the rulers for all classes, let's be honest, and unlike AD&D it doesn't require dump stats and absurdly high stats to make a character reasonably effective.

 

Let's look at the AD&D ranger, then (aside from the fact you're mashing together AD&D and D&D 3rd edition rules in your critique?):

 

Any self-respecting AD&D ranger will have 18 Str/18 Dex/18 Con/14+ Wiz/3 Int/3 Cha, or they won't be able to use composite bows. They will wear Studded Leather armour if they have to sneak and whatever armour fits with their max dex bonus otherwise. They are balanced against fighters largely by progressing at a slower rate. Their sneak skills will depend entirely on level. AD&D ranger has two free points of dual wield, which is silly and largely the result of Drizzt fanboyism (and, again, pre-defining your character for you) but never mind that.

 

Much of AD&D's balance and class differentiation comes from arbitrary equipment restrictions and there is clearly an optimal build for any single class character. Blending in 'in nature' was never a thing in AD&D games, nor was evasion; rangers did get a smattering of low-level druid spells and a charm animal ability. Also, favoured enemy, but in AD&D that tended to just be a matter of getting a bonus against a few small, difficult sections of the game and pity the poor bugger who wasted their one favoured enemy slot on Gibberlings...

 

The kits from BG 2 were cool, but it's telling that the only real way of balancing them was further arbitrary equipment restrictions. People tend to forget that until the Archer kit came along the only reason for you to take a ranged Ranger was that you wouldn't be wearing good armour if you were stealthing.

 

Now, looking at PoE. The Ranger gets the best ranged perks in the game, a free animal companion of your choice, which is more or less like having a permanent summon you have to be a little more careful with, the amazing binding roots skill (5/day, 30s stuck, with meaningful debuffs), a stunlock ability, driving flight. Your pet should not be dying all the time, even on PotD if you manage them even passably well in 1.05. A ranger in PoE can wear any kind of armour, favours high might, dex, per and resolve but can be spec'd to have more defensive attributes if desired.

 

There are still a few issues, mostly that the animal companion can't really be meaningfully further specialised and its perks don't feed off your initial companion choice, which makes a beastmaster type character somewhat unappealing on harder difficulties. Where the ranger needs to be fixed is to make the Animal Companion perks a second route of specialisation, rather than adding in more melee abilities just because people expect them.

 

Not to knock the AD&D classes, they did make for some interesting stuff, but invariably they were basically pre-built for you until you got Baldur's Gate 2's really amazing selection of loot (which was what all the specialisation in the game was about). Kits arguably made them even more pre-built. PoE's system is a more compelling, customisable one. It's a shame that the lack of AI massively promotes tank and spank builds.

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As someone who played table top games long before recently diving into crpgs, I'm gonna have to say that while not perfect the atributes system if tweeked a lil bit more could be ALOT better than dnd's.

What I mean by this and why I believe sawyer succeeded in his goal is that in pathfinder or dnd, u picked a class and it was fairly obvious what state u put a good chuck of ur points into and which ones u basically stayed away from or dropped down. In PoE I get a class and while there is still a stat or 2 that u know u want to max or put a lot of points into, the difference is that all the stats will do something for the classes. Each of the stats will do something nice for ALL the classes. While again it isn't perfect, all the stats will do and compliment every class.

And like some have already stated, right now the biggest problem is the AI and I'd argue con being the one who needs that lil something.

I think 2 things will improve and strengthen atributes.

1. AI. Weak tanks should have a harder time holding targets while glass cannons should be targeted quickly. Enemies should be given a range weapon and swap to if they cannot get to their target.

2. Right now each class starts off with a set number in fort, will, reflex, etc and the percent gains are based on that base number weither it's a minus or gain. If they instead changed instead of the base, have the percent go off the number after percentage given. That way if someone max might but dumps con, the percentages won't cancel each other out but would actually make fort worse since the 18% decrease isn't going off the base, but the highest number of increase. This would actually make it more harmful to drop both atributes of the same type of defense but would also increase and make more powerful if u up the atributes of the same defense.

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It's funny to see people complaining about POE not giving you pre-built class setups when they can easily make the build themselves. Either blind AD&D fans or laziness are my guesses.

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No dump = no pump; and then in the end there will be no differentiation between players picking the same class.

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It's funny to see people complaining about POE not giving you pre-built class setups when they can easily make the build themselves. Either blind AD&D fans or laziness are my guesses.

Making a build is not easy because it requires meta- and game mechanics knowledge, a new player simply does not have that. One of the negatives of

games like this is how much decision pressure is put on the player at the start of the game, while not providing any meaningful information.

For example in TOEE there werent even weapons in the game for some selectable weapon focus talents, hehe. Predict this. Stat points are just a hurdle

for new players, unnecessary imo, Blizzard realized it and removed stats in Diablo 3. Ultimately strength comes from items and talents, stats

are just there to piss people off on NPCs, and provide some "roleplay" for such "interesting" stuff as weak fighters or dumb mages. In fact, stats limit roleplay,

because they pigeonhole the role right at the start already.

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I've never understood what the big deal is with dump stats. Real life has dump stats depending on what your line of work is.

From longtime Magic the Gathering design czar Mark Rosewater:

Game (and puzzle) design is very different from most types of design. For example, let's say you're designing a lamp. You want every component of the lamp to be as obvious as possible. The switch to turn it on should be where you would expect it to be and the switch should be as simple as possible – most likely on/off. Every element of the lamp from how to move the light to what plugs in should be as clear and intuitive as possible. The goal of lamp design is to make the lamp easy to use.

 

Game design though isn't about removing obstacles but adding them. Let's suppose that a game designer set out to design a game lamp. Well, how to turn on the lamp wouldn't be obvious. The switch wouldn't be where you expect it or even necessarily look like a switch. How the lamp moved or plugged in would not be simple and the reason being that the point of a game lamp would be for users to figure it out.

Game design != life design, therefore your argument is invalid.

A CCG designer is not an authority on RPG design, so I'd actually say your argument is the one that's invalid. I actually think the biggest issue with PoE's attributes is that they tried to make a system that didn't have dump stats. In trying to fix a problem that didn't actually exist they only made a screwy system that doesn't make much sense.

Although he's not a RPG designer, his general game design experience shines through here. A game shouldn't be a reality simulator. Corresponding to reality can be useful at times (it can reduce the learning curve) but what matters to the game is giving players interesting choices and challenges. Realism can and should be bent as necessary.

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The sawyer system is pure garbage. pure garbage.

You have a backline of 3res 3con t-shirt wearing heavy hitters and a front line of high con full armor damage sponges, with a stat system that is both broken, full of dump stats and makes no sense, with might/dex being the rulers of all for all classes.

To top it all off, all character classes are as boring as hell when compared to D&D classes with all their interesting kits, specializations, feats etc.

 

For comparison:

 

D&D ranger gets auto-dual wield benefits with levels, basic druid spells, a huge choice of feats to specialize with weapons and fighting styles, an animal companion which he can unsummon, speaking with animals, special perks that allow him to avoid area-damage effects fully on a save, the ability to disappear in plain sight in nature, if high enough hide/move silently abilities, etc, and that is before interesting kits like beastmaster, archer, etc that offer more special perks and specialization.

 

POE ranger has a pet that usually dies and makes him suck at combat, a couple of archer accuracy perks and a shot that slows enemies. That's it.

 

Sawyersystem is full on failure, and ruined this game for me. That and the "cut-paste" enemy groups and infinity

 

There's nothing stopping you from, let's say, making an Undead Hunter paladin, by taking at least one or both of the talents that give +25% damage vs the 2 undead monster groups.  Plus you might also take a talent or two to improve your Undead Hunter's Will Defense.

 

That said, I won't disagree with you that this would be better if there were kits in the mix, since kits could have specialized class abilities beyond the generic class' abilities and talents.  For example, with an Undead Hunter, the character might have a special ability to enhance Will Defense beyond the normal talent that's generally available so that it can resist famyrs' charm attacks.    There are plenty of possibilities.

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Some thoughts on this topic.

 

 

1.  Might:  I think that it was a mistake that Might was defined as it was.  I think that it should have been left as pure physical strength, and then use it to limit how much a character could carry.  (I don't care if the Stash is treated like a bag of holding for the sake of ease of play.)  One significant effect here would be that if someone tried to dump Might too greatly, they'd find it increasingly difficult to EQUIP all the various items they'd need, though primarily this'd be armor for most characters. 

 

 

2. Perhaps the penalties for going below 10 on "Save" stats, should get increasingly large the more you go below 10.  I don't mean a straight line progression, but something more penal.  -1 for 9, -3 for 8, -6 for 7, -10 for 6, and so on.  And this is only a base.  One could multiply these number by 2 or 3 to make them more penal.  But don't do the same thing in reverse on the positive side.  Don't make it so that adding 6 points to RES can offset the penalty for taking 6 points from PER.

 

 

3. I think that it'd make it more painful to dump stats if stats were re-tied to things like accuracy and skills.  Right now, your accuracy isn't tied to any stat.  But if it was tied to DEX, for example, dumping DEX on a character would make them increasingly impotent in combat because they'd have a hard time hitting anything.  And frankly, IMO, DEFL should be based on DEX and PER, not PER and RES.  And arguably, one could simply merge both DEFL and Reflex, as I think a logical case can be made that the same things that add up to a character being able to evade blows in combat is essentially the same as those that let you dive out of a fireball's AoE.

 

 

 

I could probably come up with a number of other things as well.  But at this point, I doubt that we'll see any significant changes to the PoE system.

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It's funny to see people complaining about POE not giving you pre-built class setups when they can easily make the build themselves. Either blind AD&D fans or laziness are my guesses.

Making a build is not easy because it requires meta- and game mechanics knowledge, a new player simply does not have that. One of the negatives of

games like this is how much decision pressure is put on the player at the start of the game, while not providing any meaningful information.

For example in TOEE there werent even weapons in the game for some selectable weapon focus talents, hehe. Predict this. Stat points are just a hurdle

for new players, unnecessary imo, Blizzard realized it and removed stats in Diablo 3. Ultimately strength comes from items and talents, stats

are just there to piss people off on NPCs, and provide some "roleplay" for such "interesting" stuff as weak fighters or dumb mages. In fact, stats limit roleplay,

because they pigeonhole the role right at the start already.

 

Making a SPECIFIC build is not easy - making a build that can play the game and win IS easy here.

(There are even recommended stats if you don't know).

What does TOEE's problems have to do with PoE?  In PoE there are good weapons (and armours) of all types and they're easily (too easily IMO) enchantable to bridge the gap.

PoE =! Diablo - what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.  No stats = no conversation options based on stats,

Gear (in PoE) can make up for shortfalls in one stat, or enhance your best stat -> choice :)


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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Some thoughts on this topic.

 

 

1.  Might:  I think that it was a mistake that Might was defined as it was.  I think that it should have been left as pure physical strength, and then use it to limit how much a character could carry.  (I don't care if the Stash is treated like a bag of holding for the sake of ease of play.)  One significant effect here would be that if someone tried to dump Might too greatly, they'd find it increasingly difficult to EQUIP all the various items they'd need, though primarily this'd be armor for most characters. 

 

 

2. Perhaps the penalties for going below 10 on "Save" stats, should get increasingly large the more you go below 10.  I don't mean a straight line progression, but something more penal.  -1 for 9, -3 for 8, -6 for 7, -10 for 6, and so on.  And this is only a base.  One could multiply these number by 2 or 3 to make them more penal.  But don't do the same thing in reverse on the positive side.  Don't make it so that adding 6 points to RES can offset the penalty for taking 6 points from PER.

 

 

3. I think that it'd make it more painful to dump stats if stats were re-tied to things like accuracy and skills.  Right now, your accuracy isn't tied to any stat.  But if it was tied to DEX, for example, dumping DEX on a character would make them increasingly impotent in combat because they'd have a hard time hitting anything.  And frankly, IMO, DEFL should be based on DEX and PER, not PER and RES.  And arguably, one could simply merge both DEFL and Reflex, as I think a logical case can be made that the same things that add up to a character being able to evade blows in combat is essentially the same as those that let you dive out of a fireball's AoE.

 

 

 

I could probably come up with a number of other things as well.  But at this point, I doubt that we'll see any significant changes to the PoE system.

 

1.) Is the purpose to stop super tanks that can't be hit but also do terrible damage?

 

If so I think it would be better to work on the AI, making monsters disengage to attack an easier or more dangerous target, and to have a ranged attack option to shoot the softer targets in the rear.

 

2.) Having massive penalties on going below 10 would just make builds more similar. The mechanism as is works fine.

 

3.) If accuracy was tied to a stat it would just make it so that everyone would max that stat, unless the effect was minimal and then it would be meaningless. The three saves are influenced by two of the six stats, this seems balanced to me. Dex is important enough by having it control action speed, having it also influence deflection would make it too important.

 

To get better offensive stats you need to sacrifice defense and vice versa, balancing the two is the challenge of character builds.

 

The only stat that is perhaps lacking in application is constitution. The con score should have a greater effect on endurance and health with a lesser effect from class. A wizard with high con should be comparable to a fighter with low con. Perhaps armor penalties could be increased and have con counteract the armor penalty.

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Dump Stats are a killer for me in any RPG system.

 

I think there should be dump stats but w/e

 

I like Might being important for Mages and Int being important for Barbarians but maybe they should have stopped there. Sawyer tried to mess with it too much (make every stat important for everybody which just isn't possible), so eventually he killed all the fun of char building due to focusing on convenience and balance at all costs

 

Ironically, he still couldn't escape dump stats haha

Edited by Luj1

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Before he went down the ****ter


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Because there were bugs to be fixed."


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It's actually pretty easy to make each attribute relevant to defensive builds. This is because there are normally several offensive vectors, and defensive builds are interested in managing all of them to varying degrees.

 

It is more difficult to make every attribute relevant to offensive builds. There are only so many ways to effect damage globally, and damage-dealers can ignore some specified damage routes to focus on others. In a party-based game, you still get dumps even if you use immunities, because you can have different specializations for different party members, and thus different "carries" in immunity situations.

 

However, I can say without reservation that Eternity's design could have better avoided dump stats in defensive characters. From a defense perspective, Dexterity and Intelligence are both strictly-speaking inferior to Perception and Resolve respectively, and those two are virtually the same attribute, anyway, so the game feels almost like it has 5 attributes but one of the five starts at -4 and can be pumped to 27 (30 if Orlan).

 

Preventing "squishy" offensive dumping is harder, but would be not as important of a point if the game wasn't so tank-and-spank mechanically.

Edited by scrotiemcb

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2. Perhaps the penalties for going below 10 on "Save" stats, should get increasingly large the more you go below 10.  I don't mean a straight line progression, but something more penal.  -1 for 9, -3 for 8, -6 for 7, -10 for 6, and so on.  And this is only a base.  One could multiply these number by 2 or 3 to make them more penal.  But don't do the same thing in reverse on the positive side.  Don't make it so that adding 6 points to RES can offset the penalty for taking 6 points from PER.

I think I'd have to agree with KDubya on this one. This kind of implementation would be a terrible idea, as it would just serve to make all builds end up in a very narrow range of ability scores.

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