Motivation after the Level Cap

[Crucis]

 

...hits rock-bottom.

 

I can't even explain it, really. I enjoy much of the game, but once I've reached the cap, a lot of things just sorta feels useless to do, and I just want the game to end.

 

 

I kind of feel the same. For me playing an rpg has much to do with developing a character or group of characters.

 

I think, the cap should have been set at 14 or 15. That would have been enough for the whole game. More than once I stopped playing when hitting the cap and starting over with a new character or rushing through without doing side quests anymore.

 

Curious how the new nerfed experience system under patch 1.05 pans out. But I fear that the cap will still be reached well before finishing the Twyn Elms Arc.

 

 

I didn't reach the level cap until most of the way through Act3 ... I skipped the 2nd half of the Paths, didn't do all companion quests (don't like swapping in and out a lot) and I didn't finish the last round of bounties. Probably some sidequests I missed as well.

 

But there you have it. I love my completionist runs. And if you do that, the cap is really an issue. It should have been taken into account. As I said, 14 or 15 would have probably been enough.

 

It was much better balanced in Neverwinter Nights II. In my numerous playthroughs of that game I always hit the cap at the very end of the game.

 

 

But if you balance the game for the obsessive completionist, you end up hurting those who aren't.  It's as simple as that. 

 

There was some guy in a similar thread who got to the final battle by level 8, who obviously hadn't done many of the side quests.  (He was wondering how he was supposed to win the final battle.)  If the level cap had been raised to level 14-15 and the difficulty level raised to match, this poor guy would have been in even deeper trouble than he already was when he reached Thaos at only level 8 with the level 12 cap.

 

 

[Crucis]

 

This is why cheating gets old after a while. God Mode isn't any fun.

 

Which really just brings me back to the pacing issue again. You get overleveled and then it's practically like having God Mode in 9 fights out of 10, even putting aside all other potential issues with combat that might warrant discussion.

 

 

Welllllll, then don't be an obsessive completionist and leave some side quests undone, and try to time things so that you make the "leap" to the final few areas about the same time you reach level 12.  Problem solved.

[Silent Winter]

^one doesn't need to be an obsessive completionist - just enjoy the quests - I roleplayed and left undone some quests my character just wouldn't do - still levelled up a bit too quickly mid-game.  (It's not just the cap - it's the pace of levelling out-pacing the encounters)

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Welllllll, then don't be an obsessive completionist and leave some side quests undone, and try to time things so that you make the "leap" to the final few areas about the same time you reach level 12.  Problem solved.

 

It's not obsessive. I found a lot of the side quests more enjoyable than the main story.

[LadyCrimson]

Most of the side quests I skipped were in Act3. I entered Act3 around lvl 9 (just turned, I think), having done everything I was able/found except that I'd only done 4 of the Paths levels. So...are a lot of people finishing the Paths before going on to Act3? Maybe that's what's pushing most people over? 2nd half of Paths could have been inaccessible until mid-Act3 or something, too, in terms of pacing, maybe.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess that all the bounties available in Act3 were for those who skipped a lot of sidequests, reach the end at too low a level, and don't want to or are "locked" out of earlier quests at that point...I do think there were too many bounties. Maybe should have been the one group before Act3 and only one group after reaching Act3. Or fewer per "grouping."

 

At any rate, as someone above said, it's always difficult to balance for those who want to do "everything" in one playthru, vs. those that tend to just follow the main quest. I've seen it done better in other games than Pillars manages, but not a whole lot more so. It's probably one of the biggest complaints of all leveling games (that one is over-leveled or under-leveled or reaches a cap). Not sure how one would really get around it (edit) outside of making a game much more linear.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

So...are a lot of people finishing the Paths before going on to Act3? Maybe that's what's pushing most people over? 2nd half of Paths could have been inaccessible until mid-Act3 or something, too, in terms of pacing, maybe.

 

I got to level 8 of Endless Paths before going to Defiance Bay. That's more than half the mega-dungeon completed before starting Act 2. This was on Hard. And then I went to Defiance bay and did some side quests, did not touch the main quest, and went back to Endless Paths and reached level 13 and found out I was stuck and couldn't get back out. So I went to a previous save at level 11 and then went back to Defiance Bay and started the main quest.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[GrinningReaper659]

I fail to understand why they would go so far as to control your XP gain so adamantly by removing combat XP only to let you break the system by providing an avenue for limitless XP (bounties). By doing this they literally took the best reason to control XP and threw it out the window. It's like they wrestled the gun out of the hands of the mad man, proclaiming themselves the decision maker, the boss, the controller of balance, only to shoot themselves in the foot the next minute.

 

Maybe you're just fundamentally misunderstanding the reasons for removing combat XP? I don't know why you think the goal was to meticulously control the level progression, which was always going to be impossible in a somewhat open game with lots of side areas. The primary reason for removing combat XP was to keep the "slaughter everything" approach from being the optimal approach, allowing for more roleplaying freedom.

 

 

Preventing premature capping should have been the number one reason for controlling XP gain.

 

Removing combat XP is not equal to "controlling XP gain." You can control XP gain with or without combat XP and with or without quest XP. it should probably also be noted that there is combat XP in the form of the bestiary, which was the concession they made to people who were upset about combat XP removal.

 

 

It should have been a simple system. For example, complete 80 - 100% of the quests in the game (depending on how hardcore they wanted to be, possibly determined by difficulty level) to maximize your level in the game. Bounties, perhaps, might only give XP once that threshold has been met as a means to level up straggling characters you didn't use as much. This would ensure a full, or near full, completion of the game's content before you hit that point where nothing matters. They already took the major step by eliminating combat experience so what the hell happened?

 

My guess would be that what happened is that their QA people completed considerably less content per playthrough than their actual players ended up completing. Also, it couldn't possibly be as simple as bringing the player to max level upon completing some specific percent of the quests in the game, because different quests reward different amounts of XP. That's like saying that the cap will be reached after you kill 80% of the monsters/creatures in the game, which would also be impossible because different creatures tend to give different XP amounts. I don't think that a good system is overly difficult, but it's not quite as simple as your idea there.

[GrinningReaper659]

OP, I personally didn't lose any motivation after reaching the level cap, and it didn't cause me to skip any content. My main problem was how trivially easy combat was starting in Act 3 because of it (and in the game in general), but I guess if I had simply done things in a different order that wouldn't have been the case, but then the fun pre - Act 3 challenge wouldn't have been there. I'll definitely be knocking the difficulty up to PoTD for my next playthrough, which will hopefully help out with the challenge aspect.

[Doppelschwert]

I'm wondering what I missed in 1.04 to have that much of a slower level pacing than everyone else?

 

I hit the level cap in the final dungeon and I believe that I did every quest in Act 1 / 2 and up to lvl 12 in Od Nua, at least I cleared all areas and spoke to every named NPC I could find. I also did every quest I found in Act3, in total only skipping the bounties, a certain quest from a frightended villager in Act3 and half of the companion quests, party of 6 so no exp bonus. The pacing was still off, but the total amount of exp seemed fine to me.

[abaris]

 

At any rate, as someone above said, it's always difficult to balance for those who want to do "everything" in one playthru, vs. those that tend to just follow the main quest. I've seen it done better in other games than Pillars manages, but not a whole lot more so. It's probably one of the biggest complaints of all leveling games (that one is over-leveled or under-leveled or reaches a cap). Not sure how one would really get around it (edit) outside of making a game much more linear.

 

But let's be honest here. Only doing the main quest, you're done in 10 to 20 hours tops. There aren't that many mandatory quests following that line.

 

And they had the balance absolutely right with NWNII. I can only repeat what I said earlier, a cap two or three levels higher would have taken care of all playstyles.

[VahnXIII]

This leveling balance has always been an issue in cRPG's. We've already listed several examples. The fact remains that you'll either hit the level cap early because you are exploring every piece of content you can get your hands on, or you skip a lot of the optional content and you become underpowered for the finale. 

 

For me personally, I like the level cap at 12 and yes, I'll probably reach the cap well short of the final dungeon. Fortunately though, I believe the entire game is done well enough for me to remain motivated to continue adventuring.

[LadyCrimson]

I personally like reaching a cap somewhat before an endgame, because I can't stand it when I can only use the last-level powers/abilities/whatever for a few fights.

 

As to the main questline being short - that could be said of most rpg's. Doesn't have much to do with anything - there are always people who play a first run by just following what their questlog says to do, and sometimes that ends up with them doing little outside of the main path.

 

If you increase the max level, then you (likely) also have to rebalance the endgame for chrs. that are going to be higher level, which is tangentially related to the "it's too easy/too hard" syndrome and so on forever in a cycle. At some point you just have to decide "this is the level." There's already a mod that can reduce the amount of XP gained, so if one really needs XP-gain as their sense of progression motivation, can use that.

[abaris]

In any case, it seems to be better balanced as of patch 1.05, since I left Defiance Bay at level 9 and not, as with previous characters scraping at the cap.

[Gunnar.Maluf]

This leveling balance has always been an issue in cRPG's. We've already listed several examples. The fact remains that you'll either hit the level cap early because you are exploring every piece of content you can get your hands on, or you skip a lot of the optional content and you become underpowered for the finale. 

 

For me personally, I like the level cap at 12 and yes, I'll probably reach the cap well short of the final dungeon. Fortunately though, I believe the entire game is done well enough for me to remain motivated to continue adventuring.

 

The answer to balance the combat is to balance it per level. If the player reaches a certain combat at level 4 then there will be say 5 enemies....if it's at level 9 then these same enemies gear/armor/stats will be upgraded or more enemies trown at the player like 12-13 enemies instead of 5.

[Varana]

Level scaling is bad. Period.

 

But then, I have no problem with overlevelling. The whole point of levelling is getting stronger to beat the bad guys more easily.

 

If I plough through enemy hordes being at the recommended / intended level for that part of the game, that's not good. If the game gives me opportunities to earn a few levels and then cut those hordes to pieces, that's how it should be. I hate level scaling with a passion.

 

In PoE Act 2, if I go to Dyrford first, I might be slightly over level for Defiance Bay. If I go to Defiance Bay first, I'll probably be over level for Dyrford. If I put in a few levels of Od Nua in between, I might be stronger than intended for either.

That's fine.

That's the whole point of levelling up.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Varana

[Gunnar.Maluf]

I understand the need to feel powerful as something that adds fun. I totally agree. But the way POE is now, it's not fun because only two fights pose a threat in hard mode (the adra dragon and thaos). The level up scale can be made in a way you still feel powerful because you are now facing more enemies or a more powerful one and the fight would feel strategic,"difficult", rewarding.

 

For me the fun ends when there's no challenge anymore. Being able to get past hords of enemies is fun at the beginning, but after a while it leads to boredom.

 

I want to feel like I felt playing BG 2 where the battles were very strategic and I feel POE mechanics are better for that, they just didn't nail it yet.

[oaktownbrown]

It doesn't bother me. I haven't leveled up my character since getting to Defiance Bay. I currently have around 47K xp. The encounters are more challenging with a low level character.

 

I do the quests that seem in character to learn more about the lore and the world. I do the bounties bc the combat is usually challenging, unlike the combat in most of the game, and for the loot.

 

I think that the main problem is that there is too large a range for characters level in Act II. Your character could reasonably be anywhere from level 3 through level 12. I don't see how Obsidian could balance the encounters for such a large range. Even if they made a few of the encounters easy as a way to encourage ppl to do those first, they would still probably need encounters that were interesting for characters from level 5 or 6 to level 10 or 11. I don't see how that is possible.

 

To OP, would finding interesting loot help?

Edited May 10, 2015 by oaktownbrown

[zenzei]

I have also hit lvl 12 just at the beginning of Act 3 and it is true that part of motivation to keep playing and exploring has gone. I haven't done all bounty quests yet, I haven't even started to explore Endless Paths of Od Nua. Now I just feel like getting to the end of the main quest and then maybe start another playthrough.

It is very interesting how important is making our game characters stronger for some people, including me. With max out characters game gets a little less interesting.

 

BTW: Killing Undead Raedric gave me 8.000 xp. I was like WTF?! Feels like a bug.
(it was solo playthrough if that matters)

[abaris]

 

It is very interesting how important is making our game characters stronger for some people, including me. With max out characters game gets a little less interesting.

 

 

Not necessarily making them stronger. Shaping them would be the more apt word. Having the option to develop them till the end credits roll.

[zenzei]

 

It is very interesting how important is making our game characters stronger for some people, including me. With max out characters game gets a little less interesting.

 

 

Not necessarily making them stronger. Shaping them would be the more apt word. Having the option to develop them till the end credits roll.

 

 

Yeah. You put it nicely.

[Ickis99]

Thanks for your feedback. I personally prefer having an overpowered character over the level cap. Somehow it never lowered my motivation if the fights are too easy since i have earned it ^^. My favourite game of all time is also a Obsidian game, Neverwinter Nights 2 and it´s still great fun even after a dozen playthroughs. The cap in NWN2 is 20 and i usually hit it very late in the game so it doesn´t bother me. And the XP surplus moves over to Mask of the Betrayer if you continue your joruney there, so it isn´t a real cap for me.

 

 

...

 

To OP, would finding interesting loot help?

 

That would definitely help. In New Vegas, where i suffered from a complete loss of interest after the cap, i pretty much had the strongest armor and weapons available. I´m eager to see what kind of high level equipment you can get in PoE.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ickis99

[abaris]

The cap in NWN2 is 20 and i usually hit it very late in the game so it doesn´t bother me. And the XP surplus moves over to Mask of the Betrayer if you continue your joruney there, so it isn´t a real cap for me.

 

 

Same here. I always hit the 20 in the very last dungeon. It was perfectly balanced as far a levelling goes. But I suspect it had been easier with NWNII, since the game is pretty linear as opposed to POE where the side quest make for the majority of quests.

[Hassat Hunter]

I wonder when the mentality changed...

 

I don't think I ever saw anyone complaining about the cap in Baldur's Gate (2). Leveling was just what happened along the path, it was nothing something to go for.

But then comes around modern ages and no-one seems to play for the game itself, but all for leveling. And once they hit the max (why did you rush to it then people?) they complain about it being required higher.

 

Result; Modern games with 300 levels, New Game+ and New Game++ who are totally meaningless just to get that high level with the difference between lvl 1-20 being less than 1-2 in PoE or older RPG's.

 

And it's seriously ruining RPG's like a black plague. Just where does it originate from?

 

EDIT:

KOTOR2 has a lvl 50 cap... you never reach it. Also the game's about over when you reach lvl 7, anything over that and you're an unstoppable murder machine. I always hear people complain about it but reading this thread it almost seems a dream come through for some people... 0_o

Edited May 12, 2015 by Hassat Hunter

[abaris]

I wonder when the mentality changed...

 

I don't think I ever saw anyone complaining about the cap in Baldur's Gate (2). Leveling was just what happened along the path, it was nothing something to go for.

 

Well, my mentality changed when playing pen and paper D&D back in the 80ies. In fact, it never changed, since levelling, the sense of achievement and getting shiny new toys are part of the fun when roleplaying.

[Crucis]

I wonder when the mentality changed...

 

I don't think I ever saw anyone complaining about the cap in Baldur's Gate (2). Leveling was just what happened along the path, it was nothing something to go for.

But then comes around modern ages and no-one seems to play for the game itself, but all for leveling. And once they hit the max (why did you rush to it then people?) they complain about it being required higher.

 

Result; Modern games with 300 levels, New Game+ and New Game++ who are totally meaningless just to get that high level with the difference between lvl 1-20 being less than 1-2 in PoE or older RPG's.

 

And it's seriously ruining RPG's like a black plague. Just where does it originate from?

 

EDIT:

KOTOR2 has a lvl 50 cap... you never reach it. Also the game's about over when you reach lvl 7, anything over that and you're an unstoppable murder machine. I always hear people complain about it but reading this thread it almost seems a dream come through for some people... 0_o

 

Regarding PoE....  They could raise the level cap or even remove it, and the end result would be that after a certain point, you'd just be massacring everything you ran into, including the final battle.  Or they could rebalance the awarding of XP so that you couldn't reach the level cap until you neared the end of the plot.  But then the result would be that anyone who took a more direct route through the main plot line and wasn't an obsessive compulsive on the side quests would find themselves that much weaker by the time they (quickly) reached the end of the plot.

 

There doesn't seem to be a win-win scenario here.  About the only potential time I could see raising the level cap not being a major problem might be in PotD.  Given the overall difficulty of PotD, raising the level cap there might not be so bad, though I could be very wrong on that.  Flip side, there might be some people who would complain that PotD then got too easy. Sometimes, you can never win.