So Paladins and rangers..

[eubatham]

Paladin is *excellent* for its intended purpose. It is a tank. It can heal, "resurrect", buff the party with auras, and be virtually immortal. It is not a high damage class and expert players are able to make the higher damage classes tough enough, making the class less desirable amongst the more hard core players. Folks that just want to play the darn game once, casually, might love to have such a durable character that can bring the priest or mage back up mid fight. I have had one in several parties and there is not a thing wrong with it.

I'd like to see you bring people back to life that aren't full con barbarians or fighters, considering that the resurrect spell kills almost everyone once its initial effects wear off. Paladins have no single purpose, their abilities are unfocused and spread all over the place. Furthermore, its only real tanking ability is again from a level 1 talent that's given to all (PC) Paladins automatically. Its other class skills are downright bad compared to other classes, the only reason why you'd state that the Paladin is alright at support is if you never had a class like a Priest or Chanter in your group.

 

You don't need to play the game on PoTD to see just how lackluster the Paladin is. Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?

 

I really recommend you reading through threads like http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/ before you'd reply again.

Edited May 8, 2015 by eubatham

[kaiki]

 

Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?

 

 

That particular line of argument is flawed as it can be applied to all classes.

 

I will agree that having resurrect as a class skill isn't anything special as the resurrect scroll requires a low amount of Lore and has a very large AoE. It's usually better for even the Paladin to use the scroll then their own class ability in that regard.

Edited May 7, 2015 by kaiki

[FlintlockJazz]

Wizards rock you just need to play 'em right.

[MoxyWoo]

Paladins can 'tank' but don't bring anything else but that except for Darcozzi.

 

-support skills dont stack as spells override aura

-aura radius is tiny.. may effect others if they hump the paladin.  Int does not help this.

-rezz "kill" instead of "skill"

-boring play

-npc lack major defense bonuses so cant 'tank' unless main PC

-tank role is equal or surpassed by fighter and others bring more cc or dps

-the defense stuff helps for solo but in a group everything is mimicked and surpassed by items or other classes.

-SUMMARY:  not worth a slot when others are better.

 

+darcozzi give really good accuracy and retaliate in early game above any other class.

[Wulfram]

My Paladin's aura was bugged to affect the whole party. It seemed rather better that way

[Crucis]

Paladins can 'tank' but don't bring anything else but that except for Darcozzi.

 

-support skills dont stack as spells override aura

-aura radius is tiny.. may effect others if they hump the paladin.  Int does not help this.

-rezz "kill" instead of "skill"

-boring play

-npc lack major defense bonuses so cant 'tank' unless main PC

-tank role is equal or surpassed by fighter and others bring more cc or dps

-the defense stuff helps for solo but in a group everything is mimicked and surpassed by items or other classes.

-SUMMARY:  not worth a slot when others are better.

 

+darcozzi give really good accuracy and retaliate in early game above any other class.

 

Agree 100% on the aura.  They're too small in general.  And their small size means that any AoE increasing effect from high INT isn't going to be worth investing in that high INT.  +24% of a small number is still going to be a small number.  That said, if one is going to go for a high Lore score with a paladin with the intent of casting scroll spells, a high INT could come in useful there, so one should be careful not to totally dismiss INT here.

 

-rezz "kill" instead of "skill"

 

I don't have the slightest idea what you're saying here.

 

 

Boring play?  It's a matter of personal taste.  What you find boring others may find enjoyable.

 

Personally, I enjoy having Pallegina along in my parties to support Eder.  I'm not interested in worrying about crap like "cc" and "dps".  I bring alone characters that I like and find useful for my playstyle, and don't worry about the rest.

[Crucis]

 

 

Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?

 

 

That particular line of argument is flawed as it can be applied to all classes.

 

I will agree that having resurrect as a class skill isn't anything special as the resurrect scroll requires a low amount of Lore and has a very large AoE. It's usually better for even the Paladin to use the scroll then THAN their own class ability in that regard.

 

 

It depends on the situation.  But unless it's the final battle of the game, I'd say that it's the reverse.  I'd rather expend an ability that's replaced at no significant cost than expend a scroll, unless there was a reason that the scroll was the better option for the situation.

 

That is, if the paladin ability can raise only a single character, and you have only a single character in need of being raised, then the ability is a better choice than the scroll which can raise up whomever is in its AoE.

 

It may also depend on whatever other differences may exist between the ability and the scroll, mostly how much END does the character get after being raised.

 

 

 

[JONNIN]

 

Paladin is *excellent* for its intended purpose. It is a tank. It can heal, "resurrect", buff the party with auras, and be virtually immortal. It is not a high damage class and expert players are able to make the higher damage classes tough enough, making the class less desirable amongst the more hard core players. Folks that just want to play the darn game once, casually, might love to have such a durable character that can bring the priest or mage back up mid fight. I have had one in several parties and there is not a thing wrong with it.

I'd like to see you bring people back to life that aren't full con barbarians or fighters, considering that the resurrect spell kills almost everyone once its initial effects wear off. Paladins have no single purpose, their abilities are unfocused and spread all over the place. Furthermore, its only real tanking ability is again from a level 1 talent that's given to all (PC) Paladins automatically. Its other class skills are downright bad compared to other classes, the only reason why you'd state that the Paladin is alright at support is if you never had a class like a Priest or Chanter in your group.

 

You don't need to play the game on PoTD to see just how lackluster the Paladin is. Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?

 

I really recommend you reading through threads like http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/ before you'd reply again.

 

 

Honestly the resurrect is just to get my priest back up, who then heals himself (ideally) and the fight continues.  I don't think it would do a bit of good on most anyone else, as you said.  

 

They have other tanking abilities.  Lay on hands self heal or to heal your dps buddy is handy.  DR aura (sure its only 3, but that is 3/hit over a long fight).  It can suppress negative effects -- getting rid of debuffs that make it take damage making it tank better.   Another choice buffs F&C.  It could be a better class, sure --- going full damage sponge, after those abilites you end up investing the rest of your talents into stuff anyone can get like sword & shield style or other defensive choices.   After playing thru the game a few times, no, its not my first choice anymore, but remembering my first play through, the paladin saved the day many a time.   

[kaiki]

 

 

 

Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?

 

 

That particular line of argument is flawed as it can be applied to all classes.

 

I will agree that having resurrect as a class skill isn't anything special as the resurrect scroll requires a low amount of Lore and has a very large AoE. It's usually better for even the Paladin to use the scroll then THAN their own class ability in that regard.

 

 

 

 

"It be mo' betta' use dat rez scroll, 'cuz Pally's class rez be no go. Fo' sho." - Fixed

[Carados]

In PoE paladins faith bonuses are nice, but not really game changing. When I play paladin in baldur's gates, its a whole different kind of game compared to if I played it as a cleric or as a fighter. You get immunities (Fear, charm, poison etc) and powerfull abilities (turn undead, protect evil, dispell magic, remove fear etc) that can change the course of battle.  However this comes with a cost, you must be lawfull good or lawfull evil if we're talking about blackguards.

 

In PoE paladins get the job done and they're "leaders of the party", but they don't feel so special. They can fill out many roles, but i wish their abilties were more meaningfull.  Would it really hurt to give paladin class some kind of immunity towards fear for instance?

Edited May 8, 2015 by Carados

[MoxyWoo]

 

 

 

Agree 100% on the aura.  They're too small in general.  And their small size means that any AoE increasing effect from high INT isn't going to be worth investing in that high INT.  +24% of a small number is still going to be a small number.  That said, if one is going to go for a high Lore score with a paladin with the intent of casting scroll spells, a high INT could come in useful there, so one should be careful not to totally dismiss INT here.

 

-rezz "kill" instead of "skill"

 

I don't have the slightest idea what you're saying here.

 

 

Boring play?  It's a matter of personal taste.  What you find boring others may find enjoyable.

 

Personally, I enjoy having Pallegina along in my parties to support Eder.  I'm not interested in worrying about crap like "cc" and "dps".  I bring alone characters that I like and find useful for my playstyle, and don't worry about the rest.

 

 

Reviving exhortation is currently bugged and will kill a character once the duration is up unless they have like what.. 150+ endurance?  something nutty, most classes die under it. Thus a priest or a lore scroll is preferred.

 

Boring play = less goodies at high level = nothing to look forward too.  I personally have rated paladins pretty highly in the early game unlike others, but later on, I guess I expected more out of them as a matter of personal taste... Personally think Obs may have only tested some of the classes or gotten feedback for them up to level 5, and then once they were "good" lot of the paladin things slipped by.

 

Pallegina is handy because your only other offtank choice is your PC or hireling, a weird melee ranger Sagani, and finally Kana who isn't built exactly for it stats wise.  This is why she becomes one of the "best of a bad bunch" but that doesn't mean her skills, aura, and similar aren't working as intended, nor the other issues of the paladin were addressed.

 

Anyway, feel free to read the paladin discussion, I've said and added my solutions to that thread and hope one of the devs will consider some paladin revisions.

[MoxyWoo]

In PoE paladins faith bonuses are nice, but not really game changing. When I play paladin in baldur's gates, its a whole different kind of game compared to if I played it as a cleric or as a fighter. You get immunities (Fear, charm, poison etc) and powerfull abilities (turn undead, protect evil, dispell magic, remove fear etc) that can change the course of battle.  However this comes with a cost, you must be lawfull good or lawfull evil if we're talking about blackguards.

 

In PoE paladins get the job done and they're "leaders of the party", but they don't feel so special. They can fill out many roles, but i wish their abilties were more meaningfull.  Would it really hurt to give paladin class some kind of immunity towards fear for instance?

 

Paladins do have effective fear immunity due to Righteous Soul...  Whether its more valuable than just having a priest cast it for your "entire group" is more of a discussion of a spell slot, vs a class talent.

[roller12]

Paladins in BG2 sucked, inferior fighters with useless low-level cleric spells. I see not much has changed. Although they couldnt tank back then and now they can, so its clearly a buff and they do have a role now at least. Tanks are important.

Edited May 8, 2015 by roller12

[bonarbill]

Paladins in BG2 sucked, inferior fighters with useless low-level cleric spells. I see not much has changed. Although they couldnt tank back then and now they can, so its clearly a buff and they do have a role now at least. Tanks are important.

 

Considering how grand mastery was weakened in BG2, I don't see how they're that much inferior to fighters.  They still function well as fighters like every other fighter class in that game.  Plus they have access to one of the most overpowered kits in game.

Edited May 8, 2015 by bonarbill

[roller12]

Considering how grand mastery was weakened in BG2, I don't see how they're that much inferior to fighters.  They still function well as fighters like every other fighter class in that game.  Plus they have access to one of the most overpowered kits in game.

Two words - multiclass inability. Seriously all the good Paladin stuff in bg2 comes from Keldorn who was simply a well written character. And well, not that bad compared to other premades, and i see this problem has made it to PoE as well.

[bonarbill]

 

Considering how grand mastery was weakened in BG2, I don't see how they're that much inferior to fighters.  They still function well as fighters like every other fighter class in that game.  Plus they have access to one of the most overpowered kits in game.

Two words - multiclass inability. Seriously all the good Paladin stuff in bg2 comes from Keldorn who was simply a well written character. And well, not that bad compared to other premades, and i see this problem has made it to PoE as well.

 

 

Honestly, multiclassing was overpowered, and I consider them classes of their own.  They pretty much triumph over any single class builds.  Doesn't[ mean a single class build "sucked" though.

[eubatham]

This is the first time I've heard someone call kits like the Cavalier terrible. As said in the post before me, some things like multiclassing was broken. But I wouldn't simply compare all other classkits against the outliers. Overall, the Paladin had quite a few decent kits.

 

It's like saying any class that wasn't a Cypher before 1.05 was terrible.

Edited May 8, 2015 by eubatham

[Crucis]

Paladins in BG2 sucked, inferior fighters with useless low-level cleric spells. I see not much has changed. Although they couldnt tank back then and now they can, so its clearly a buff and they do have a role now at least. Tanks are important.

 

 

I found both Inquisitors (?, whatever Keldorn was) and Undead Hunters to have been excellent pally kits.  I didn't particularly like Cavaliers, but that was in large part due to them not being allowed to use ranged weapons, and my play style demands that all characters have a ranged weapon option.

[roller12]

Single classes? Sorcerer, bard >>> paladin. Pretty much everything was better than plain melee classes in BG2, arcane magic ruled that game, multiclassing did nothing more than adding said magic to melee. But sure they were good enough to beat vanilla, but so is PoE paladin no?

Cavalier? Bards get a party-wide aura with better bonuses.

[vattghern]

Why do people say NPCs don't get Faith & Conviction? Pretty sure my Pallagina has it.

[Luckmann]

Why do people say NPCs don't get Faith & Conviction? Pretty sure my Pallagina has it.

 

They have it, but it's not affected by Reputation/Dispositions. The same goes for CNPC priests.

 

Only the main character is affected, for some asinine reason. The IEMod has fixed it but we haven't seen it patched yet, meaning that the developers doesn't consider it an issue.

[vattghern]

 

Why do people say NPCs don't get Faith & Conviction? Pretty sure my Pallagina has it.

 

They have it, but it's not affected by Reputation/Dispositions. The same goes for CNPC priests.

 

Only the main character is affected, for some asinine reason.

Obviously so your PC's dialogue choices don't interfere with party members' skill bonuses.

 

IIRC the tip during char creation made it sound like it's therefor always maxed out for NPCs; is it actually on the lowest level instead?

[Lightzy]

 It's not that rangers are just plain bad. It's that they're BORING AS ALL HELL. In D&D rangers get dual wield as a character trait, they can go on and specialize as archers, as beastmasters, as whatever...  They get some basic druid spells, they can sneak very well and get bonuses to that later on (to the point of being able to just disappear in plain sight in some environments), after a while they get to completely ignore area-effect damage with a roll to save (instead of just take half damage like other chars). They get favored enemies and the ability to speak to animals etc.

 

THEY'RE INTERESTING CHARACTERS WITH A TON OF DEPTH

 

In P:OE they're... archers with a crap animal and 3con/3res. That's it.

Not a single character class in POE is half as interesting as any character class in D&D, and the ranger is where it really shows.

 

Just a bad game overall. full on disappointment

Edited May 9, 2015 by Lightzy

[Evange]

In BG2 you only pick pally for the reason to use Carsomyr...

[View619]

 It's not that rangers are just plain bad. It's that they're BORING AS ALL HELL. In D&D rangers get dual wield as a character trait, they can go on and specialize as archers, as beastmasters, as whatever...  They get some basic druid spells, they can sneak very well and get bonuses to that later on (to the point of being able to just disappear in plain sight in some environments), after a while they get to completely ignore area-effect damage with a roll to save (instead of just take half damage like other chars). They get favored enemies and the ability to speak to animals etc.

 

THEY'RE INTERESTING CHARACTERS WITH A TON OF DEPTH

 

In P:OE they're... archers with a crap animal and 3con/3res. That's it.

Not a single character class in POE is half as interesting as any character class in D&D, and the ranger is where it really shows.

 

Just a bad game overall. full on disappointment

 

In POE, you can build Rangers as you wish. I'm not sure why people keep saying they are "just boring archers with a pet" when you can easily make them your ideal D&D Ranger (dual wielding, swift aim, two weapon fighting, Weapon Focus, lore scrolls that give Druid spells, talents that give damage bonuses against specific enemy groups,etc) and you're not forced into any specific build unless you're one of those players who sacrifice themselves on the alter of "optimal play". If you're worried about "optimal play" then you're only limiting yourself because the very same thing can be said for any game. 

 

All I see in these complaints are "POE classes are not like D&D classes". If you want pre-made D&D classes then play a D&D game. If I want to make a POE Ranger similar to a BG2 Ranger kit, I can easily do this. For the record, the IE games didn't do the ideal D&D Ranger very well either.

 

For important discussion, I really hope Obsidian adopts the idea behind the IE mods fix to NPC Paladins/Priests being affected by party reputation. It's a no-brainer decision, imo.

Edited May 9, 2015 by View619