[Class Build] Ranged Rogue PC Discussion (min/max)

[dudex]

i also have flanking effect dissapearing early. Not sure what triggers or causes it.  I am sure it is not just because of phantoms/teleporting.

Edited May 2, 2015 by dudex

[Atchod]

Are people still trying to prove that there are better stats to max for DPS RANGED ROGUE than Might,Dex and INTELLECT , intellect is the only one that could theoretically add damage out from other 3 stats ( Con,Per,Res) , neither of those will increase your damage except INTELLECT might help you to keep debuff long enough on some enemy to finish it faster . It is very sad that this is the only discussion going on . 

@Looms : well what else would you take over intellect? Cons? Resolve ? you still can max Might Dex Int + Perception almost maxed (16-17 pts depending on race) some people seem just to hate the fact that physical dps could use intellect doesnt seem very rpg right ? 

 

 

Sure, it takes more micro to position your characters to receive the Minor Threat and Marking buffs but Marking contributes significantly to my later success in the game. In PotD, enemies don't tend to die fast. And I don't see the problem with a companion next to you? Also, the Paladin's Zealous aura also has a 3m range only, I don't see you mentioning that. That means both the pally and marking weapon user (assuming they are not the same person) have to be close to the rogue. And to think you accused me of being lazy and not optimizing my playstyle in the other thread - *rolls eyes*. Maybe you're the lazy non-optimizer consider you deem Marking as a useless mod? (:

 

With regards to race, I chose Wood Elf simply because I want to be one. I'm not that anal of a min/maxer. But from that viewpoint, my Elf has a 45% crit to hit with a Dire Blessing and Crit Focus (excluding Predatory weapons) - I personally think it's good enough. You gotta decide if 10% more crit or +5 accuracy is more important.

 

stupid INT discussion aside ( never asked anything about INT this is set in my build its 18 Intellect at lvl 1 ), i agree with most of your points Having to Micro Manage Marking and Minor Threat shouldn't be a problem , also for Race i alrdy did Wood Elf once maybe will just pick Orlan for the dialogue and some variety and Max crit in this build , imo 10 crit > 5 accuracy , but orlan gets worse starting stats so it makes them very even for me. , also you said 45% crit with wood elf in your build that is very nice what buffs were used for this ? 

 

About pally companion : its either Pallegina for crit aura while she would use guns or grieving mother(just being cipher good enough) using guns blunderbuss or two,seems i wont avoid Quick Switching this playtrough either .

What weapon would you go with ? Persistence? I am thinking to get Weapon Focus at lvl 12 so i might just use both Hunting Bow's and War Bows and see which will be better with the build . What would be your choice for Buffs(Inn's Courtesan's , God's Quest) trough out the game +Might ? or +Dex ? or Spread both evenly like 26~ might 26~ dex endgame ?

Edited May 2, 2015 by Atchod

[Kilrach]

I guess if you want to build a rogue with zero RP value then yes, INT would be better than nothing from a purely combat standpoint. Or if you're gonna build a companion who doesn't need any RP attributes. I picked Res because it's my first playthrough and I wanted that RP. My argument for not putting any points in INT is this: your rogue is gonna deal so much damage that a prolonged debuff on a SINGLE target doesn't really make sense. And that's assuming you party isn't focusing on the target as well - the mob will drop like a fly. Unless we're talking about trolls and ogres etc. but either way prolonged AoE debuffs (with the same high INT) however, are a rogue's wet dream. With a cipher and/or wizard, rogue's debuffs are just redundant.

 

But as I said, it's still better than nothing if you're not interested in RP.

 

 

Pallegina's aura also adds accuracy on top of crit - I'd say she's key personnel. I mentioned this in one of the more popular early ranged rogue threads. The choice I picked is the low-profile and severely underrated crossbows. I wasted a LOT of time using an arbalest before making the switch too. I never liked the idea of Quick Switch (from both a personal and RP perspective) as well so it has always been one weapon for me. It has the sweet spot of having the fastest reload of any reloading weapon while not having any -crit multiplier from an arbalest or -accuracy from a firearm. And like I said on the other thread, it can pretty much match the damage of an arbalest. Why? Because damage still has a range at the end of the day. That means an arblest has a higher CHANCE to dealing more damage than a xbow, albeit not consistenly. And since you'd be a crit monster, the bonus of not having the crit multiplier penalty matters a LOT more.

 

I personally tested out both xbows and arbalest too - the occasional higher damage doesn't warrant the slower reload speed of the arbalest. I have to repeat I wasted a lot of time using an arbalest - could have racked up a lot more damage. I guess the prone effect on crit was still okay. Anyhow, once you have access to the Exceptional Crossbow sold by the Dozens, buy it immediately, enchant it immediately. I didn't enchant it immediately - thinking it needed a lot of resources too. Oh well, the mistakes you make on a first playthrough. Do that and your numbers could very well be better than mine (:

Edited May 3, 2015 by Kilrach

[Kilrach]

Oh I haven't progressed that much - I mentioned I'm barely into Act 2. Only gotten Mericless Hand so far.

As for stats distribution, I'd say Might over Dex. I'm already shooting pretty fast imo with that kind of Dex.

 

The additional 20% crit is from the Priest's buff Dire Blessing

Edited May 3, 2015 by Kilrach

[MoxyWoo]

Peddroelm posted this in the testing thread, but the DoT interaction seems to be the same for INT on a rogue.   You actually get a bit more damage out of having lower INT basically unless you break like 22+ or something nutty with them vs 4.

 

Debuff wise... rogue make things dead as the "best" debuff.  Ranged rogue uses the initial alpha strike for the 2 second free sneak attack during combat usually, then uses their encounter like crippling strike.  YMMV but you might get an extra shot or 2 due to high INT during sneak attack, but in practical play... the trash mobs don't need it and 7 seconds (?) vs 13 (? been awhile since I played my rogue) was a non issue as hard fights, every attack = sneak attack anyway due to CC.

[Kilrach]

Peddroelm posted this in the testing thread, but the DoT interaction seems to be the same for INT on a rogue.   You actually get a bit more damage out of having lower INT basically unless you break like 22+ or something nutty with them vs 4.

 

Debuff wise... rogue make things dead as the "best" debuff.  Ranged rogue uses the initial alpha strike for the 2 second free sneak attack during combat usually, then uses their encounter like crippling strike.  YMMV but you might get an extra shot or 2 due to high INT during sneak attack, but in practical play... the trash mobs don't need it and 7 seconds (?) vs 13 (? been awhile since I played my rogue) was a non issue as hard fights, every attack = sneak attack anyway due to CC.

 

Yep exactly. One Chill Fog pretty much gives you a sneak attack galore.

Also, if you're using a reloading weapon like me, then the high INT debuffs matter a lot less. Just leave the CC to the CC classes.

[Narla]

For choosing between perception and resolve, I just wanna point out that if you enjoy the talking to npcs minigame perception tends to have more interesting choices. Also watching my combat log a lot I am pretty sure I saw crits get a bonus to interrupts.

[Atchod]

As it was mentioned in OP , dialogue choices are lowest priority because :

1) differently from half of the posters here in this thread i finished this game twice on POTD(Custom Party)and up to act 3 on hard(with companions) on my first playtrough , Do you still think i give a **** about this awfully written dialogue :? No 

2)Might,Dex,Int maxed gives you ton of dialogue , i dont get this how saying "resolve good for dialogue options" is even a valid point to someone who played the game atleast once ? You get as much dialogue from Perception as from Resolve also Might Dex and Int is like 3/5 all of the dialogue options ( Constitution has like none ) , and dont forget that i am playing rogue and Resolve usually has a cheap ass score free way to solve things without any thought or trying i had this way when i played Paladin PC . Rogue is different and perception has some really interesting choices that suits the character assuming i gave any ****s about the dialogue which i really dont and its not like i wont have atleast 70% of dialogue options available anyway no matter what i build as long as i min/max.

 

Weapon Choice : Thinking now to use Cloud Piercer ( Borresaine as backup if i need to stun something ) and Persistance trough mid game and i will test which ones are better , also gona pick Weapon Focus as my last talent so there is some time to make decision while playing ) , thinking to drop idea of using Arbalest for alpha strike it slows the build actually i think but will test that out while playing .

 

Questions that Still remains :

 

Concentration + Will ( Resolve ) or Interrupts+Reflex ( Perception ) :

both Will and Reflex would be maxed if i chose their stat because Int and Dex who gives Will and Reflex are already maxed , will i ever use Concentration?

Ranged Rogue 12 M Range With Shadowing Beyond is kinda positioning GoD , so damage is really avoidable, also maxing Perception also gives reflex as i mentioned before and that with maxed reflex from dex would help alot to avoid AoE's that are only damage type that could hit rogue . Will - Always a decent choice , people who say having cipher means you dont need to worry about dominated chars simply are wrong , your char dominated+ cipher trying to undominate him is two dps'ers out of combat , meanwhile resisting that dominate in first place would be way better. 

 

What skills to go with at lvl 5 7 and 9 is a real choice :

 

at Level 5 and 7 there are 3 skills to go with and 2 of them can be taken and choice is between Deep Wounds , Finishing Blows , Blinding Strike on preliminary build i took out Blinding Strike simply because mage can aoe blind non stop and i think gona keep it that way .

At level 9 Choice is between 2 Per encounter Weakens and 1 Per Rest Death Blows setup, leaning towards 1 Per rest Fearsome strike as backup plan if i need to apply deathblows on someone instantly . 

 

Potions : 

Somewhere on forums i read that Eldircht Aim replaces Paladin/Priest accuracy buffs , soooo does Merciless Gaze potion replace paladin crit aura ? ( if potion replaces paladin crit aura i am not even considering taking pallegina anymore just gona go for Grieving mother after cipher nerfs she should be fine to play and not make the game to easy)  I Am going to use them potions on almost every fight every playtrough i had ended with huge surplus of ingredients and unused pots so this time i am just simply going to max survival and spam the pots every fight.

 

Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver :

 

Does these two talents stack ? one gives  0.3 Crit Dmg Multi and other gives 0.1 Crit DMG Multi , Does these stack between each other ? Will Azazalins Helmet stack with these(+0.1 Crit Dmg Multi Helmet from defiance bay) ?

 

Also those who havent finished your game yet for the first time .. seriously guys dont spoil yourself to the end in my thread i am clearly writing all the spoilers up to the very end game and you are better off to finish the game than to write random stuff that turns out to be false when you advance 2 hours into the game please ok ??? ty very much

 

 

Also : I Did some calculating for the endgame attributes should be something like this : 30 Might ( Hell yeh! race Hearth Orlan so thats +13 might up from 17 base) 22 Dex 21 PER ( If i am to choose leveling perception in the end and hearth orlan race ) 22 INT , Should be able to get arround 10~ CON also that doesnt matter at all tho so i didnt count that quite decent stats you still think i am gona lack dialogue options? thats like 3/4 of them right there . Cant wait to Crit with 30 Might Bloody Slaughter and Finishing Blow+Deathblow combo.

 

There is also a list of best in slot items that i found trough wiki but it might be inaccurate dont think PoE Wiki is finished yet :D

Edited May 3, 2015 by Atchod

[MoxyWoo]

I did this on my paladin so results may vary.

 

PoE seems to pull from the following sources in terms of stacking things.

 

-Weapon/Shield

-Equipment (armor, helm, gloves, cloak, rings, boots)

-Spells (this includes Zealous Auras. scrolls that mimic spells, and spellbinds that mimic spells)

-Chants

-Per encounter abilities like Holy Radiance

-Talents

-Class Talents

-Food

 

The highest from all categories will stack.  For example I can use a priest with Inspiring Radiance (encounter) and Zealous Focus (spell) fine.

Edited May 3, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Atchod]

Sooooo what about those potions then ?

 

Edit : Do you mean that : Potion of Merciless Gaze mimics Merciless Gaze Wizard spell so it wont stack with Zealous Focus Aura cuz its a spell , or you mean that merciless gaze potion will stack with zealous focus aura because the crit part of zealous focus is actually a talent ? I am lost here . 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Atchod

[MoxyWoo]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77511-spell-speed-by-frame/

 

On dex ^.

 

One of the reasons I like it so much more than other stats.

 

And yes.. it doesn't effect reload time afaik...  if you watch your party fire and use the same reload via guns... all of them are the same roughly despite say Durance having 9 dex vs your rogue having 20 dex, though my computer is old, so if Dex really effected it besides the fact my rogue started a little earlier, then it would be much more noticeable than virtually the same reload time.  (then again my computer is pretty old, so hard to tell a lot of things I noticed.)

[Kilrach]

Lol Atchod, you really need to get the stick out of your ass.

I'm 40 hours into the game and lvl 9 so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about (people speedrun the game in less than an hour, so does hours even mean anything?). And who the **** do you think you are that you deem people who hasn't complete the game to not know what they are talking or that they mind spoilers? Heck, you completed the game twice and you don't even know about Dire Blessing (just LOL). I KNOW things that you DON'T so don't give me or anyone else this holier-than-thou crap, this community doesn't need an attitude like yours.

 

I've already agreed that if you don't want Resolve as an RP, then I have no qualms about your max INT. Just move on and stop whining about it. My build already has max Perception and a tad lower Resolve. Ironically enough, your max INT has even more value for RP purposes than redundant single-target debuffs which are inferior to CC classes. Also, Wizards have AoE blind AND AoE hobble. I avoid damage even without Shadowing Beyond. Getting WF as your last talent? Good luck with that.

 

Keep thinking that the War Bow is the ultimate weapon choice - I'm sure it'll serve you well (:

[MoxyWoo]

Resolve is good for all characters because interrupts are annoying.

 

Even just moving and getting interrupted was pretty maddening to me when a tank gatherer was suddenly stopped from positioning or similar.

 

On ranged rogue with warbow.. I'm always conflicted for them. I don't wanna micro them like some people do as I view them as a low maintenance class, yet like the chunky number they produce with the within 2 seconds sneak attack from the heavy hitting, heavy reload weapons.

[Kilrach]

If you're referring to microing by quick switching multiple reload weapons, I don't do that. I never like the idea of quick switching from a RP, realism and gameplay perspective. The Gunner talent stacking with Kana's chant gives a crossbow user extremely fast reload times - you really only need one good xbow.

[MoxyWoo]

Yeah, that's usually what ended up happening.  Crossbow rogues with a crit focus was my first playthrough for the hired companion.  She was pretty cool, and one less character to tab too which was awesome to me then.

[Atchod]

Using anything except warbow or hunting bow on this build is just stupid , dont believe it ? Console 2 identical char's with diff weapons and test it because i DID .

 

Also MoxyWoo why do you think rogue with warbow takes more micromanage than crossbow rogue is unclear for me this doesnt make much sense .

 

EDIT : There are no good crossbows in PoE except one that is at the end of the game, Also Kana's Reload Chant cant be used together with Fire Weapon Chant ( well it can but you loose like half of each chant so it is not a proper way to do it and if you use Fire Weapon+Reload Chant your chanter will never cast any skills ever because of how long those chants are ) so just stop considering them in the build ty , I would be happy to go for crossbows if there was any decent ones in the first 2/3 of the game but there is none . 

[Kilrach]

Don't count Dire Blessing? Why not discount Chill Fog and other AoE debuffs while you're at it, they are also spells right? Now you're just not making any sense. Dire Blessing and Devotions for the Faithful are used when you want your best self against bosses or hard encounters. I still crit like a boss without those buffs due to extremely high accuracy (yes, crit to hit can be overrated) with Pallegina's aura, racial advantage and Marking, plowing through Endless Paths using only per-encounter abilities and Chill Fog. Yes I tried Cloudpiercer, okay weapon except the gimmick of Jolting Touch - like I said once per encounter.

 

Kana's fire weapon chant is nothing to shout about. Using a war bow, you hit maybe 4 times? And that's assuming the timing is so nice that you manage to start shooting the second he chants. Tell me how much extra fire damage that is. And yes, it's for the whole party but the majority of my party is using reloading weapons anyway so reload chant it is. For the second time, I've already mentioned you can get an Exceptional xbow at the Dozens vendor and enchant it. 

 

Best crossbow and possibly ranged weapon in terms of instant damage is Good Friend (after enchanting it to Superb). Wendgar gives extra attack speed (already shoot fast enough with the high Dex and Kana's chant) and crit. Coordinating gives an extra +4 accuracy and +1.25x DAMAGE - I pick this over Wendgar (@MoxyWoo: maybe you could comment on this idea of mine?).  

 

[Looms]

IMO Wendgar will be the one of best picks for ranged character once they fix the speed bonus.

[MoxyWoo]

Resolve is good for all characters because interrupts are annoying.

 

Even just moving and getting interrupted was pretty maddening to me when a tank gatherer was suddenly stopped from positioning or similar.

 

On ranged rogue with warbow.. I'm always conflicted for them. I don't wanna micro them like some people do as I view them as a low maintenance class, yet like the chunky number they produce with the within 2 seconds sneak attack from the heavy hitting, heavy reload weapons.

to clarify.  my view of rogue is to have a good alpha and kill or severely hurt a monster.

 

i also view them as a class that doesn't need micro as much.

 

warbow hinders the 1st thing.

 

guns quickswitch helps but is just 1 more character to switch too.

 

crossbow offers the practical middle ground as enchants are easy and crit mod is not hurt either.  plus it reloads at half the time.

 

ps ty for the civil comments.. hope that clarified.

 

pps  on tab.  hope it reads ok.

 

edit:  Kilrach looks really good too...  i'm not sure what to comment on tho.  If you mean dps i use the attack speed spreadsheet.

Edited May 4, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Kilrach]

@MoxyWoo: I was referring to my thoughts about Good Friend being better than Wendgar after enchanting it to Superb. IMO, Coordinating is better than the attack speed bonus and extra crit of Wendgar.

[MoxyWoo]

 

 

28-41 Damage with a crossbow :DDD i am done with you , keep ****posting in this thread .i am out . There is a reason for Min/Max so you dont end up with such scrubish builds like yours :D

 

 

Just a heads up, with the damage on his sheet he has dealt roughly the same amount of damage a lvl 12 character has done at lvl 9.  Pretty impressive.

 

Anyway, theoretical Rogue on the attack spreadsheet... 22 dex, 3.1 dmg modifier (assumes all rogue talents +sneak attack + superb + 20 mig, etc, i think i got all of them, but did this quickly, -5 DR talent, +10 accuracy over the base 20 class for rogue)

 

DPS vs DR 20

-Warbow:  40.71 dps

-Crossbow:  60.61 dps.  (No gunner or surehand added in)

 

Basically, with all rogue stuff the crossbow comes ahead by the numbers, even at the "lower" DR due to how +dmg modifiers work.

 

That said the other numbers are vs DR 20

-Arquebus:  86.96 dps

-Pistol:  73.69 dps

-Arbalest:  76.18 dps

 

Practically though, attack time, and animations of the "guns" will seem like less dps even if the sheet gives them such chunky numbers.  

Edited May 5, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[MoxyWoo]

@MoxyWoo: I was referring to my thoughts about Good Friend being better than Wendgar after enchanting it to Superb. IMO, Coordinating is better than the attack speed bonus and extra crit of Wendgar.

Speed modifier doesn't work on ranged weapons currently, so Good friend is better from a practical optimization.  If it gets fixed though...

 

Good Friend wins by 2.1 dps difference assuming superb even with the speed  Wendgar... it doesn't keep up next to +dmg mod and accuracy gains

Edited May 5, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Tigranes]

Let's keep the pointless riling up of others for somewhere else, shall we? Discuss the game, not your imagined ideas of other people.

[Kilrach]

@Atchod: That damage excludes extra 25% Burning Lash damage. Also, I have not enchanted it with a Slaying mod with those stats. I might just fit in a Kith-slayer from now until I enchant Good Friend.

[Kilrach]

@MoxyWoo: By my calculations, due to enchantment restrictions, there isn't enough anvils for a secondary damage enchantment. Upgrading Good Friend to Exceptional and adding a +25% elemental lash damage might be more potent assuming accuracy isn't as valuable as a damage. So the question is this: is +4 accuracy or 10% more damage better?