Sawyer on vacation?

[GrinningReaper659]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for many of the IE veterans around (especially BG2). Those games with their high lvl-cap, their epic loot and combat xp has indoctrinated many people to a fairly completionist playstyle. I however never got that urge on my first playthrough of POE though. Perhaps because people in the forums were already vocal with regard to the fact that the game was very magnanimous in terms of dishing xp. But I am proof that sticking mainly to the main quest does not result in an overabundance of xp, and even though I stuck to the main story, I never felt like I went out of my way to acquire avoid getting xp.

 

Oh I'm definitely a "completionist," whether there's loot or XP to be had or not. I didn't leave a single stone unturned after reaching the cap in PoE, and the lack of additional XP didn't make it more boring for me at all. I tend to agree with Luckmann in part that content is meant to be played, so hitting the level cap with so much undone is a but odd and it further trivializes encounter difficulty for the remainder of the game. That being said, I get that some will skip a lot of content. My first reaction is "then they'll be underleveled," but that isn't really helpful.

 

I still think that the best way to solve the XP issue for everyone is to drastically reduce the XP rewards of optional content only to the point that hitting the level cap requires doing most of the content in the game. This doesn't affect people like you at all,  because the XP gains from main story content remains the same. That, or to drastically slow down level progression starting at the level one can reach after completing all main story content only. This would have essentially the same result and still wouldn't affect those who don't do everything, the only real difference being that people could reach whatever level that is (8-9) more quickly than in the former idea.

 

There's some really easy ways to solve it, though, but so far they haven't shown any interest in doing so (much like fixing the Attribute bonuses, which they also know are lopsided).

 

Aren't some XP changes coming in 1.05 to address the issue? Or are they only lowering bounty XP rewards?

[nipsen]

 

I still think that the best way to solve the XP issue for everyone is to drastically reduce the XP rewards of optional content only to the point that hitting the level cap requires doing most of the content in the game. 

 

How would that affect a non-completionist, then? Would they pick and choose a side-quest that might come along, that seems connected to the story. And then find that they need to advance the story a bit more to be able to clear the next sidequest? Do you think that's a remote possibility?

 

See, here's the thing in a nutshell: you're suggesting tweaks exclusively from a power-gamer perspective. And whoever keeps implementing these things is making the game unplayable for everyone else.

[Prime-Mover]

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for many of the IE veterans around (especially BG2). Those games with their high lvl-cap, their epic loot and combat xp has indoctrinated many people to a fairly completionist playstyle. I however never got that urge on my first playthrough of POE though. Perhaps because people in the forums were already vocal with regard to the fact that the game was very magnanimous in terms of dishing xp. But I am proof that sticking mainly to the main quest does not result in an overabundance of xp, and even though I stuck to the main story, I never felt like I went out of my way to acquire avoid getting xp.

Bull. It's not an issue of a high or low level cap, it's an issue of pacing, and has nothing to do with "indoctrination". Content is meant to be played, to draw a hard line between "completionists" and "casuals" is ridiculous, and creates the false dichotomy of two groups for mental midgets to lump everyone together into and label. The real world with real people doesn't work that way. A lot of IE veterans even prefer lower-level play, and consider IWD2 and ToB to practically make the system fall apart.

 

There is currently no problem with finishing the game with only doing a bit of the sidequests and primarily the main quest, and you should end up at level 12 by the end anyway, even though level 9 would do, whereas if you do most of the quests, you end up level 12 long before Twin Elms (assuming some missed quests/deliberate avoidance and about ~7 levels of Od Nua). The pacing is shot to hell.

 

You are making a few claims here:

 

1) Playing one type of game (the IE games) over and over in the last 15 years is not going to affect people expectations regarding how to play POE.

2) The problem is pacing

3) Drawing a hard line between completionists and casuals does not reflect a real division among gamers, and if someone suggests this, they are a "mental midget" whatever that means (I assume it's derogatory tough).

 

Unfortunately there's no argument to support any of these claims, so you're making it difficult to engage with you in a meaningful and reasonable manner. I will try though. Note, the lack of argument doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. It just doesn't motivate good discussion.

 

1) I'm simply speculating here, as I mostly rely on my own experience here, but it's also the impression that I get from reading on these forums, and the fact that the official stance has always been to make a IE-type of game. If you don't think this has affected people's expectations regarding the type of game POE is, then entirely ok.

 

2) The problem is whatever the problem is for the people playing. In my case, pacing wasn't a problem on the first playthrough. In many other cases, it might be. I wasn't making a judgment regarding other people's experiences, I was simply giving an account of why different people may have different experiences. I didn't feel any pacing issues, because that is contingent on a more completionist playstyle than the one I was ascribing to here. Does 99% of the people feel differently? Cool, but as I use the terms, that means they are further towards the completionist end of the spectrum.

 

3) I wasn't drawing a hard line. Oh and **** you, you ****ing piece of ****. Now wasn't that nice? Didn't that emotional language just make my claims so much more convincing?

Edited May 3, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[Luckmann]

You are making a few claims here:

 

1) Playing one type of game (the IE games) over and over in the last 15 years is not going to affect people expectations regarding how to play POE.

 

[...]

 

Less than 10 words in, first point out of three, and you've already failed basic reading comprehension. There is no price for participation, you know.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Luckmann

[GrinningReaper659]

 

 

I still think that the best way to solve the XP issue for everyone is to drastically reduce the XP rewards of optional content only to the point that hitting the level cap requires doing most of the content in the game. 

 

How would that affect a non-completionist, then? Would they pick and choose a side-quest that might come along, that seems connected to the story. And then find that they need to advance the story a bit more to be able to clear the next sidequest? Do you think that's a remote possibility?

 

See, here's the thing in a nutshell: you're suggesting tweaks exclusively from a power-gamer perspective. And whoever keeps implementing these things is making the game unplayable for everyone else.

 

 

Huh? I'm not sure that you understood what I was getting at. I'm not a power gamer.

 

My whole goal was to keep people who do most of the content from hitting the level cap before Act III without affecting the progression for those that don't do side content. There's a clear problem with progression, and not just for completionists, when I hit the level cap with a full party before Act III and before being halfway done with the endless paths... So my suggestions are to fix the overly rapid XP progression gained through side content without impacting those who don't do much side content. If the main path XP rewards remain the same, then for example Prime-Mover wouldn't be any more under-leveled because he's just doing the main quest stuff mostly, while the people who do most of the side stuff won't get shoved up to the level cap so soon.

[Prime-Mover]

 

You are making a few claims here:

 

1) Playing one type of game (the IE games) over and over in the last 15 years is not going to affect people expectations regarding how to play POE.

 

[...]

 

Less than 10 words in, first point out of three, and you've already failed basic reading comprehension. There is no price for participation, you know.

 

Please elaborate and tone down the hostility. I assume you are interested in a meaningful exchange, and a in making progress in this discussion. 

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

Not trying to be a creepy stalker, but I've been following Mr. Sawyer's twitter feed for about half a year now. I noticed he hasn't posted anything in about a month. I see Avellone and Adler are still active, so I'm kinda curious what PoE's captain is up to.

DID THE WENDERSNAVEN GET HIM?

 

[Nakia]

Would some one please explain to me what a "completionist" is?  It does not  seem to be in the dictionary so I assume it is a word coined in Internet or game play usage.  

[Ohioastro]

Inexperienced players rely on overlevelling content to beat it. Removing that option really impacts their game play.

 

More to the point, the whole experience issue is generic to open world games. If Chapter 2 isn't scaled to character level and runs from 4 to 9 you'll always be able to either get frustrated or to trivialize things.

[constantine]

1.05 reduces quest XP rewards, they paid attention (not on the point, but you can rest on any map at the stronghold and be it like you rest at Brighthollow, another point they paid attention).

 

I will have to agree with Volourn here, players who indulge time to complete most of the content should reach MAX LV and not everybody, so I hope XP reduction is enough.

 

Patch notes state that quest XP and bounty quest XP have been reduced so that it's not possible to attain max lv before Twin Elms.

[nipsen]

Huh? I'm not sure that you understood what I was getting at. I'm not a power gamer.

 

"Oh I'm definitely a "completionist," whether there's loot or XP to be had or not. I didn't leave a single stone unturned after reaching the cap in PoE, and the lack of additional XP didn't make it more boring for me at all."

 

Sorry, you're a bit above just being a completionist.

 

My whole goal was to keep people who do most of the content from hitting the level cap before Act III without affecting the progression for those that don't do side content. There's a clear problem with progression, and not just for completionists, when I hit the level cap with a full party before Act III and before being halfway done with the endless paths... So my suggestions are to fix the overly rapid XP progression gained through side content without impacting those who don't do much side content. If the main path XP rewards remain the same, then for example Prime-Mover wouldn't be any more under-leveled because he's just doing the main quest stuff mostly, while the people who do most of the side stuff won't get shoved up to the level cap so soon.

Yeah, I understand the argument, and that it's syntactically consistent. What I'm saying is that a random player will not either play all the additional side-quests, or otherwise no optional side-quests at all. So while your argument is logical as it is presented, the presumption that only completionists will play side-quests is obviously not correct.

 

In other words, if you really, really have to rake the entire game for xp, and feel that the game is pointless when you hit the level-cap more than one fight before the last boss - then that's your personal problem.

 

Because there's no way to tweak for this without making the payoff too small for players who pick some side-quests once in a while. In addition, you eventually make the side-quests too difficult to complete for people who don't overlevel. And therefore remove the purpose of side-quests in the town-areas: "I'm not entirely comfortable with my questing party or the background lore yet, so I'll look a bit around, and try to figure it out before I travel to the next major quest".

 

And blowing that part of the game up shouldn't be worth it to placate a specific concern like this. But luckily for you, Obsidian has a great track-record of doing exactly these kinds of tweaks for fans, so you may yet be fortunate - at the cost of everyone else (who paid the bill for the game, and don't scream their heads off about their entitlement on the internet all day like complete fools with too much time on their hands).

 

I mean, try to imagine how you'd program an algorithm that does what you're asking for here. We're going to put in a scale for xp for side-quests that drops off around... 1/4th of the way? Because then we're going to assume that if you've completed the sidequests up to that point, you're likely going to end up doing everything. So at a specific amount of quests completed, we're flagging "completionist" in the character card, and dropping off the subsequent rewards - in expectation that the "needed" amount of xp for this player to get to max level is lower than for other characters. And so achieving supreme perfection for the level-cap timing towards the end of the game, no matter what else it might affect.

 

And you'd have to do that for no other reason than that these specific players /feel/ that hitting the level cap at a particular point is more significant than actually completing quests, getting the optimal gear, and so on. And you're also going to have to balance for the fact that these "completionists" will only ever have a party made up of the original character party, and will never switch out or make new characters along the way.

 

Simple! It's done in a real hurry, with magic, and I can't possibly think of any other parts of the game that could do with that attention at all! Off the top of my head, really, couldn't name... 100 other specific examples. Not at all. So I say, screw the game for all other people - random casual players as well as the more experienced and less methodical gamers - than the super-completionists, to placate a very, very insistent claim someone makes on the internet.

 

Because what could possibly go wrong with just "doing what fans want"? Really, you would clearly have to be a genius, or a huge pessimist(!) of some sort to see any problems with implementing this suggestion.

 

That being said, though - I apologize for being so crass. But this kind of thing is what we've been seeing around here for almost a year now. Before Obsidian has someone actually collect this invaluable feedback "from fans", and have someone implement it in the game, believing that it will hardly affect anything at all. So the practical joke at my expense, in several different meanings of the term, is wearing a bit thin.

[Sensuki]

sup nipsen

[nipsen]

I'm sure you've said you'd block me, and punish me cruelly with the lack of your royal attendance, Sensuki. So by all means, punish me more.

[Sensuki]

I'm sorry? What?

[Nakia]

1.05 reduces quest XP rewards, they paid attention (not on the point, but you can rest on any map at the stronghold and be it like you rest at Brighthollow, another point they paid attention).

 

I will have to agree with Volourn here, players who indulge time to complete most of the content should reach MAX LV and not everybody, so I hope XP reduction is enough.

 

Patch notes state that quest XP and bounty quest XP have been reduced so that it's not possible to attain max lv before Twin Elms.

XP reduction is no  problem for me but being able to rest at the Stronghold from any map sounds at best cheesy to me.  Any map?  No travel time involved?  No penalty?

 

Inexperienced players rely on overlevelling content to beat it. Removing that option really impacts their game play.

 

More to the point, the whole experience issue is generic to open world games. If Chapter 2 isn't scaled to character level and runs from 4 to 9 you'll always be able to either get frustrated or to trivialize things.

Thank you for the explanation.  So they want games like Oblivion and Skyrim is that it?  I did not back Obsidian to have another Oblivion game.  If this game, expansion, sequel get watered down like that I will start complaining.  

 

Sawyer has been on vacation and I want him back NOW.

 

 The first time I played BG I did all by  myself with no help but the manual.  It was difficult and sometimes frustrating but I did and I wasn't much of a game player at the time.

 

Now I am upset.

[Sensuki]

Thank you for the explanation.  So they want games like Oblivion and Skyrim is that it?  I did not back Obsidian to have another Oblivion game.  If this game, expansion, sequel get watered down like that I will start complaining.

Ohioastro prefers Morrowind to the Infinity Engine games and has played a lot of Oblivion, Skyrim and MMOs. Don't confuse what they want with what he wants.

[Yellow Rabbit]

Would some one please explain to me what a "completionist" is?  It does not  seem to be in the dictionary so I assume it is a word coined in Internet or game play usage.

Since no one for whatever reason answered your question yet, I'll try:

I believe "completionist" means player who explored every single area there is, killed every single enemy he was able to find, took and completed every single quest/task. Read every single book/piece of lore too, but that one is kinda irrelevant to current discussion. Here you go

[Nakia]

 

Thank you for the explanation.  So they want games like Oblivion and Skyrim is that it?  I did not back Obsidian to have another Oblivion game.  If this game, expansion, sequel get watered down like that I will start complaining.

Ohioastro prefers Morrowind to the Infinity Engine games and has played a lot of Oblivion, Skyrim and MMOs. Don't confuse what they want with what he wants.

 

Morrowind was the best of the three games.  It had an integrated story, a few faction conflicts and was not leveled to the character.  My first play of the game I got killed by one lousy mud crab right away.  Mods were needed to make Oblivion worth playing.  Skyrim was better than Oblivion but the leveling system in my opinion was a joke.  

[Ohioastro]

I respect the fact that other people play games in different ways than I do. I want new people to enjoy hobbies that I do, and I want the design to be flexible enough to support a critical mass of players. Its not all about me and my preference.

 

I also think that the focus on overleveling content in open world games is misguided. If you really want to force a consistent game experience you gate or level scale. Otherwise you tend to end up with games that are, by my standards, too easy to be interesting. I loved Morrowind, but none of the ES games are challenges to me because of this. IWD2 is the game with the most consistent and satisfying curve for me, and it is completely on rails...

[Nakia]

 

Would some one please explain to me what a "completionist" is?  It does not  seem to be in the dictionary so I assume it is a word coined in Internet or game play usage.

Since no one for whatever reason answered your question yet, I'll try:

I believe "completionist" means player who explored every single area there is, killed every single enemy he was able to find, took and completed every single quest/task. Read every single book/piece of lore too, but that one is kinda irrelevant to current discussion. Here you go

 

If that is the meaning then I am a completionist.  I like to explore, I like doing the side quests, so what is wrong with that?  I also like having quests I can't do for some reason or quests that have different options.  Choices that matter in the game are important to me.  I don't want to join every faction, be able to do every single quest in the game the first playthrough.  So what am I?

[Miraklum]

 

 

Would some one please explain to me what a "completionist" is?  It does not  seem to be in the dictionary so I assume it is a word coined in Internet or game play usage.

Since no one for whatever reason answered your question yet, I'll try:

I believe "completionist" means player who explored every single area there is, killed every single enemy he was able to find, took and completed every single quest/task. Read every single book/piece of lore too, but that one is kinda irrelevant to current discussion. Here you go

 

If that is the meaning then I am a completionist.  I like to explore, I like doing the side quests, so what is wrong with that?  I also like having quests I can't do for some reason or quests that have different options.  Choices that matter in the game are important to me.  I don't want to join every faction, be able to do every single quest in the game the first playthrough.  So what am I?

 

 

Well I'm also like this. I hated a fact in Skyrim, for example, that I simply could join any faction with a single character witout restrictions. Restritions is what makes decisions matter but lore decisions towards immersion, not a hand holding you for every quest or not even being able to just kill anyone and accept consequences. Morrowind did it right. PoE also does it right! Non generic is a plus in my book!

[Sannom]

[...] but being able to rest at the Stronghold from any map sounds at best cheesy to me.  Any map?  No travel time involved?  No penalty?

Any map of the stronghold, not any map in general.

[Nakia]

 

[...] but being able to rest at the Stronghold from any map sounds at best cheesy to me.  Any map?  No travel time involved?  No penalty?

Any map of the stronghold, not any map in general.

 

Sorry, I guess I am a bit dense today.  Any map of the Stronghold?  What does that mean?

[Yellow Rabbit]

 

 

[...] but being able to rest at the Stronghold from any map sounds at best cheesy to me.  Any map?  No travel time involved?  No penalty?

Any map of the stronghold, not any map in general.

 

Sorry, I guess I am a bit dense today.  Any map of the Stronghold?  What does that mean?

 

Minus two loading screens from entering Brighthollow and its second floor, mostly. Nothing else.

[Elerond]

 

 

[...] but being able to rest at the Stronghold from any map sounds at best cheesy to me.  Any map?  No travel time involved?  No penalty?

Any map of the stronghold, not any map in general.

 

Sorry, I guess I am a bit dense today.  Any map of the Stronghold?  What does that mean?

 

 

When you click rest in any of the maps that Stronghold consists, meaning country yard, Brighthollow down- and upstairs, throne room, prison, library and barracks, and shops, church, and warden lodge, you can decide to take rest bonuses that you previously got only in second floor of Brighthollow.