The missing piece of the game balance equation. (Time value/limit)

[fgalkin]

Not a time limit, or rest restrictions. A rest limit. You're only allowed a finite number of rests, say, 100, during which time, you must finish the game. That way you can travel as much as you want till you drop from fatigue.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Althernai]

Frankly, time limits tend to run against the way people play the game.

Only for those who rest extremely frequently to keep all battles in easy mode regardless of difficulty setting.  If the time limit is only on hard or PotD then there's no problem.  People who want to rest all the time can play on easy or normal.

Unless you literally rest after every fight or something close to it, most of the time in this game is taken up not by resting, but by travel. To go from nearly any Act 2 area to your stronghold and back is at least a 2 day round trip which is equivalent to around 7 rests (days are 27 hours). A time limit would turn the harder difficulties into a minigame where you optimize your travel to reduce time. This is not what people who play on these difficulties are generally looking for.

 

Not a time limit, or rest restrictions. A rest limit. You're only allowed a finite number of rests, say, 100, during which time, you must finish the game. That way you can travel as much as you want till you drop from fatigue.

That might actually work and in fact I think there is an achievement like that, but again, you run into the fact that travel incurs fatigue and the fatigue penalties are actually pretty brutal.

[Aqueous]

This is normal...most RPGs have this aspect.

 

Just off the top of my head:

Mass Effect 1 and 3, Baldur's Gate 2, Final Fantasy 7 and 9...

 

You insert a time-limit and you kill a big part of what makes RPGs great which is the ability to roam. Ultimately, the choice is with you though. If you want to chase Thaos because time is of the essence then nothing is stopping you.

[Racker]

I wouldn't mind something like that on the hard/extra hard settings (mainly because I don't play on those settings).

 

Personally, I wouldn't like any sort of time limit because I like to get as much out of a game on one or two playthroughs, which means spending time derping around doing sidequests when I'm supposed to be going after the main villian. I'm willing to deal with the unrealistic nature of that setup. 

[abaris]

That's certainly neither the game nor the genre to be on the clock. For me it would be a major letdown if I had to rush through the game without having the time and leisure to take in the side quests and to explore.

[SlayerDorian]

It seems that many still think that having some sort of time limit means that rushing is necessary.  There are many reasons why that assumption is incorrect, here are a couple huge ones:

 

- The time limit can be tuned per difficulty.  Normal could be no limit and on harder difficulties, it could be set to something rather reasonable.  Still allowing for exploring every location and doing every side quest with some time to spare.  The whole point is to eliminate the strategy of constantly resting to trivialize combat difficulty by always having summon items and the party's most powerful spells available more often than not - if you are doing this, you aren't really beating the game on hard/PotD.

- There is very little to explore in this game that actually require significant travel time.  Hopping into every house in Defiance Bay doesn't actually take much game time.

- This is actually the perfect genre and game for this.  Conservation of resources, fighting smart, and surviving the leg of an adventure are important challenges in this type of game.  There is even a limited resting system implemented via camping supplies, travel time, and a fatigue system.  However, all of these are pretty much negated when there is no real cost to constantly running back to town for a nap at the inn, which is rather unfortunate.

 

If the time limit were tuned properly, every argument about having to rush is entirely nullified.  Additionally, the time limitations could even be implemented in smaller chunks in future releases.  Then, in between these chapters/legs of adventure/quests/whatever you want to call them, you could fart around the countryside for months if you so desired.

Edited May 5, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[chouia]

Maybe the game was not designed to be rushed... but it was not designed neither to sleep before every fight!

For me, there is a (little) problem. (But it was already there in BG.) Why do we have "per sleep" abilities, or tiredness, if we can sleep before each fight with no influence? It's like time is linked to gameplay just a little bit, for immersion only. Basecamp was a good idea to improve system. Endurance/Health is good too! But it's not enough? With infinite sleep, you nullify a part of the challenge.

 

On the other hand, I agree that you cannot put a final deadline... If you are too slow, even if you had the time to explore, what happens? You just have the "bad ending" at the end? Or you have to start the game from the start? So, it could be interesting to put several independant deadlines during the game, for each part, so you can feel you can really take your time to explore everything for this part... but not too much. However, it could be complicated in a game like this... If you do no side quest during part 1, and all side quests during part 2, you could be short?...

 

"One-shot" design indeed sounds really more interesting to me! Examples:

- If you go in Raedric's Castle you cannot sleep, or only at some particular places. If you leave the castle too long, some new guards will come. (loot problems?)

- If you don't kill every monsters in a room (or the boss), if you leave too long, other monsters come.

- If you didn't finish totally a dungeon (killing boss, using switch, etc...), if you leave for too long, other ennemies will come.

It should not be like this for every place, for sure... especially when it would be weird. But it seems to be interesting mechanisms for some place, to put challenge, and to force you not to sleep during a small part of the game.

 

Notice that travelling is soooo long, that it's hard to really use time in game. For example, I directly went inside Deviance Bay with the good bridge. So, when I wanted to visit the map I missed, I needed something like 2 days to go, 2 days to come back... and when I had to protect my stronghold, it was so long that I didn't go ther. (I try to play with minimal sleep and travel, even if -unfortunately?- there is no interest on that.)

 

Notice too that random encounters are not so great, even if I like it too. You meet strong bad guys, and you are wounded? You load. Is it really interesting? It could be, if you had to win several fights in a row... but it's not like this when you can save easily. During my playthrough, I thought that it would be great if you couldn't save, but with automatic saves (knowing more or less when will be the next). So, every fight and dialogue would be exciting like in PotD, but not crazy.) I would probably play normal with this dangerous mode, and not hard even if i like when there is more monsters...) However, I think it would be fificult to set good automatic save's emplacements in a game like this...

Edited May 5, 2015 by chouia

[Psychevore]

The 'no save' mode is already in the game, it's called Trial of Iron.

 

As for the OP: if people wanna sleep after every fight (which I honestly doubt anyone in their right mind is doing), let them. But the lack of difficulty in this game is not because of your ability to sleep all the time and everywhere. It's the mind numbingly stupid opponent AI and the lack of truly difficult encounters, mostly because enemies almost always come from the front, and the front alone, meaning you can nearly always position your party perfectly before the fight even starts. So your tank(s) will take all the heat, while the rest just butchers everyone.

 

More battles where enemies would suddenly attack you from behind while you're already engaged with enemies from the front would increase the game's difficulty by miles. More active targeting of your glass cannons. Enemy rangers should always try to take out your mage/cipher/magicstuffsdude, unless they have a hard time hitting them, then they should switch, enemy rogues should try to do the same. They (all enemies) shouldn't, ever, start a circle jerk around the nigh unhittable tank who hits for 0.5 damage a hit... but they do this, all the time, and unless you are stupid enough to place someone RIGHT NEXT to the circle jerk, they'll just keep on doing it until they die.

[SlayerDorian]

The 'no save' mode is already in the game, it's called Trial of Iron.

 

As for the OP: if people wanna sleep after every fight (which I honestly doubt anyone in their right mind is doing), let them. But the lack of difficulty in this game is not because of your ability to sleep all the time and everywhere. It's the mind numbingly stupid opponent AI and the lack of truly difficult encounters, mostly because enemies almost always come from the front, and the front alone, meaning you can nearly always position your party perfectly before the fight even starts. So your tank(s) will take all the heat, while the rest just butchers everyone.

 

More battles where enemies would suddenly attack you from behind while you're already engaged with enemies from the front would increase the game's difficulty by miles. More active targeting of your glass cannons. Enemy rangers should always try to take out your mage/cipher/magicstuffsdude, unless they have a hard time hitting them, then they should switch, enemy rogues should try to do the same. They (all enemies) shouldn't, ever, start a circle jerk around the nigh unhittable tank who hits for 0.5 damage a hit... but they do this, all the time, and unless you are stupid enough to place someone RIGHT NEXT to the circle jerk, they'll just keep on doing it until they die.

That is, no doubt, a problem.  It actually proves my point more-so than anything else.  Every aspect is important when it comes to balancing a game.  Implementing engagement without enemy AI being able to handle it is very similar to putting in a fatigue and per-rest-abilities/spells limitation without actually limiting rests in any real way.

 

Just as you can self impose some sort of time value or limit on yourself, you can also self impose not abusing the engagement system.  Just run all of your characters into the middle of the enemy party.  Don't use fighters, or don't use anything that ups your engagement beyond one target.  Don't min/max your fighter to be all defense and not able to actually hurt anything.  Ultimately, self imposed difficulty is never ever ever ever ever the solution.  It's rather silly to even suggest it.  It is, instead, a signal flare shining light on a design issue.

[chouia]

The 'no save' mode is already in the game, it's called Trial of Iron.

 

Trial of Iron is hardcore. Definitely, "auto save points" is different from "permanent death". I don't want to have to start to play 20h again just because I did a mistake. On the other hand, it could be interesting to have to play 20 minutes (for example) without saving, so you still have some pressure, and you really want to explore carefully, to fight seriously, and to talk smartly. (I didn't impose myself saves limitation... so, of course, "hard" mode was not so hard...)

 

Other option could be that you can only save when you are at inn, or when you arrive in a new map... but it could be flawed. Indeed, you could always backtrack to save, so it would be just annoying... unless ennemies come back with time, so backtracking (or sleeping) would be a failure.

 

PS: AI, fight situations, and ennemies diversity are not perfet, for sure! (Even if I got a lot of fun.) But it's not a reason not to give importance at sleeping and time in-game. Both aspects can be improved! (As it was just said in SlayerDorian's previous post... and pretty well.)

Edited May 5, 2015 by chouia

[Drath]

I think a time limit implemented in the form of a toggle or a stepped slider (strict, moderate, lax) could be a nice addition to the game without stepping on the toes of players who don't want it. The default setting will be "no time limit" but you can get an achievement if you complete the game with one. I like the idea of being efficient with travel paths, with rests and with resources in general, giving a sense of urgency on things. On the flip side, making it too strict would turn people off from taking rest-dependent classes like casters (wizard/druid/priest), so it needs to be well thought out. How long do you think would be a reasonable expectation for game completion and progress through the acts?

In any case, if this is implemented, it should be well communicated throughout the game. Maybe have townsfolk talk about impending doom initially, later on perhaps a message from your stronghold and finally direct in-game messages. Would be crushing to not realize how close one was to the time limit and fail because of that.

[abaris]

 

In any case, if this is implemented, it should be well communicated throughout the game. Maybe have townsfolk talk about impending doom initially, later on perhaps a message from your stronghold and finally direct in-game messages. Would be crushing to not realize how close one was to the time limit and fail because of that.

 

Hopefully you do realize that this would mean a complete rewrite of the whole dialogue system - at the very least.

[SlayerDorian]

 

In any case, if this is implemented, it should be well communicated throughout the game. Maybe have townsfolk talk about impending doom initially, later on perhaps a message from your stronghold and finally direct in-game messages. Would be crushing to not realize how close one was to the time limit and fail because of that.

 

Hopefully you do realize that this would mean a complete rewrite of the whole dialogue system - at the very least.

 

Indeed, adding time value into the current release would probably be better done with a mentioning or two in the earlier part of the game then some sort of UI element that serves are a reminder rather than changing up NPC dialogues.  But perhaps in future releases (DLCs, sequels) it could be worked into the world a bit more naturally.  I'd love to see some things other than a hard win/lose condition based on time, too.  You could end up saving a village or NPC if you move fast enough.  The possibilities are limitless, really.

[Katarack21]

The missing piece is that there is no time limit. 

 

Story/lore reasoning:

- Currently, the big bad guy has a plan in motion.  But, rather than executing the final step as soon as possible, he just waits around for you to show up. 

- Another reason that there could be a time limit would be the whole going mad aspect that is currently way under expressed through the game.

 

It would have been nice if when you contact Thaos' soul in the sanitarium, you get a sense of something big he's planning on X date.  Perhaps even sooner.  Or, the alternative, something could give a hint as to when you're going to slip into total madness.  This would really answer that question people have kept posing, "Why am I even doing these things aside from the journal telling me to?"

 

Game balance:

Right now, there is a lot of confusion going on about camping supply limit and people wanting to rest after every battle.  The confusion stems from the camping supply limit not really holding any weight because the only real drawback to running out is that you have to go through a few loading screens to visit an inn.  The drawback is really just a user experience issue, not actual challenge.  It is easy to see why this confuses some people.

 

Others enjoy the limited rest aspect, because it adds a new layer of strategy and skill to the game experience as long as it is not quickly abused by the previously mentioned workaround.

 

Positives of having this time limit:

- The higher level strategy of completing a dungeon or travelling in the wilderness, not just meeting the challenge of individual combat encounters would be real.  Right now, it is really only there if you choose to do it because you can always go back to town and rest in the inn as many times as you want with the only cost being a few loading screens.

- PotD battles could no longer be constantly trivialised by people resting after every battle (or nearly every battle) and spamming their most powerful spells and figurine summons.  Obviously, the game is going to be stupidly easy if this is how you approach it - which ultimately ruins the experience and cheapens the whole idea of having the difficulty setting in the first place. 

- When you complete the game on hard or PotD is actually stands for something because of the item listed above.  Right now, pretty much anyone can complete the game without much effort given that approach.

- Travel time actually means something.  Right now it can be 100% ignored with no concequence.  (especially if you have 4+ athletics on your characters, which is extremely easy to obtain)

- There would be more reason to use every little trick in your book.  Food, scrolls, potions, ect.

- Managing your resources and fighting smart becomes a necessity rather than optional.

- It gives clarity to the limited camping supplies system.  It will become immediately obivous why it is in the game if spending ages traveling back and forth to the inn and dungeon actually has a downside.

- There could be an actual sense of urgency.  This is 100% lacking right now.

 

Of course, not everyone is going to want the challenge.  It should be safe to say, though, that anyone playing on hard and PotD do want challenge.  So, the time limit should at least be there.  Perhaps even normal, though this I could see going either way or just having a longer time limit.  Leave easy mode open to wasting as much time traveling around as the player wants.

 

The time limit shouldn't be ultra hard core.  Just enough to make time a valuable thing.  There would need to be some analysis to figure out how long it should be as there should be some room for heading back to town to resupply now and then - it just shouldn't a viable option to frequently do it because that negates many difficulty balance aspects of the game.

Time limits are the worst, most unfun idea you could possibly impose. I *loathe* time limits. I *DESPISE* time limits. I go out of my way to not do time-limited quests and to avoid games that prominently feature time limits.

[Psychevore]

I'm seriously against a time limit. It would either have to be set so strict you can not to a completionist run for it to really matter, which I'm sure everybody is against. Or, it would be so loose that it doesn't matter unless you literally sleep after every fight... which is mindblowing stuff. Most battles, even on PotD, can easily be handled with just per encounter skills and autoattacks.

[cirdanx]

A time limit in a vast CRPG is beyong stupid. Having some quests that require a certain time is fine but was allready a ballance act in BG2. Reading your post, i think you want a more interactive world, which i´m all for, but enforced time limites are mostly bad for gameplay unless you have giant space hamster stolen..and not even Bioware got that right

[Nakia]

When you speak to Lady Webb she tells you that Theos may take hundreds of years to bring a plan to fruition.  That explains to me why there is no need to rush the main quest.    I see my character as bewildered, not knowing what is going on and searching for answers not racing to save the world from impending doom.

 

Having an occasional quest with a time limit is fine and can add excitement to the game but being under pressure to complete quets in a certain amount of time would take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.

[abaris]

 

Having an occasional quest with a time limit is fine and can add excitement to the game but being under pressure to complete quets in a certain amount of time would take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.

 

 I hate these with a vengeance, since if you fail, you usually have to repeat them at nauseum until you pass. Quests like that have ruined many of otherwise good games for me. I always dreaded that one quest I knew I didn't like, since they're that opposed to my usual relaxed playing style.

Edited May 8, 2015 by abaris

[fgalkin]

When you speak to Lady Webb she tells you that Theos may take hundreds of years to bring a plan to fruition.  That explains to me why there is no need to rush the main quest.    I see my character as bewildered, not knowing what is going on and searching for answers not racing to save the world from impending doom.

 

Having an occasional quest with a time limit is fine and can add excitement to the game but being under pressure to complete quets in a certain amount of time would take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.

Yeah, but that changes completely after Thaos goes to Twin Elms, while your character is on the verge of losing their mind. It's clear that there is a time-constraint in Act III (you're supposed to have arrived to Twin Elms a day after Thaos, and he rushed straight over there, then you have to beat him to the finish line by jumping in the hole- so we're talking about maybe another day, if not hours). 

 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Which means, incidentally, that the devs shot themselves in the foot, story-wise, by making the Undead Raedric quest available from Twin Elms, since you have to go to Raedric's Hold and back, and that takes like 5 days, game-time. 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Nakia]

Act III is the final part of the game.  I have no problem with a sense of urgency as you near the end.   Nor do I have problem with dealing with a week as compared to a century or two.   It can take days to catch that special fish but once caught it is reel it in or cut bait.  Raedric is a problem do you let him destroy the village or take a detour to stop him?  Let your conscience be your guide.  Life is like that.

[SlayerDorian]

How time value gets implemented and tuned is clearly important.  Things like how big the time chunks are, is it one big one or multiple smaller ones, are there breaks in between, is a win/lose condition or something else, what difficulty setting does time value start taking effect, these can be argued and tested.

 

However, it cannot be denied that there is an extreme lack of time value and that with it lacking, it results in the per rest abilities/camping supplies system being a little bit silly and toothless.  Yes, in many previous games you could just rest up all willy nilly, but that is definitely not the point here.  There was clearly intent to actually do something different (the camping supplies system), but that final piece of it missing - time value.

 

The Raedric thing is a good point.  The structure of the game was obviously not built with time value in mind, so blindly adding it would likely result in something awkward.  It would need to be carefully added.  Though, realistically, I wouldn't expect anything of the sort to get added to this installation.  But, perhaps time value can be considered from the start of any new releases (DLC and sequels) and have it implemented in a way that adds much to the experience and clears up the confusion about why some things are per rest and why there are limited camping supplies that you can carry.

 

You can see the confusion in this thread.  There is clearly an issue and you can see people coming up with their own ways to get the system to make sense, such as self imposed restrictions.  As I stated before, self-imposed restrictions is never a good answer to a design issue, but it certainly points out that there is a problem.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78724-shouldnt-all-spells-be-per-combat-encounter-not-per-rest/

Edited May 8, 2015 by SlayerDorian

[tinysalamander]

To make hard no-rest Raedric's keep Stealth better be something worthwhile first. Not that it stopped me.

[Hassat Hunter]

Am I the only one who really likes revisiting old content with new goals like Raedric's Hold. Do you guys seriously want to move forward and never look back, all areas to be a static border in a linear progression?

 

Also "If you want to play the game you want, go normal... harder is going to force you into paths"?

 

I am so glad you guys are not game developers...

[Nakia]

Am I the only one who really likes revisiting old content with new goals like Raedric's Hold. Do you guys seriously want to move forward and never look back, all areas to be a static border in a linear progression?

 

Also "If you want to play the game you want, go normal... harder is going to force you into paths"?

 

I am so glad you guys are not game developers...

I agree.  I like returning to Gilded Vale after killing  Raedric the first time and seeing what has changed, clicking on the villagers to see if there are any comments which there are.  I don't care for linear games.  I like to take my time, explore, talk to people, do side quests.  This was one of the things I loved about BG 2.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Nakia