Comparing PoE to BG is unfair

[Noin]

 

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. His bitter critics here don't appear to have designed much of anything, and the stuff that they are so angry about ranges from 'don't care' to 'flatly disagree' to 'perhaps, but fixable' in my book. I'll give the guy behind Door#1 the benefit of the doubt.

 

This would make sense if the game wasn't released to the public, but...

 

It is.

 

Surely, given a released product one can reasonably pass judgement on it -- understanding, of course, that others might disagree.  If X has released products A, B, and C to widespread acclaim (and possibly to your own acclaim), and has now released product D that doesn't receive widespread acclaim (and/or your personal evaluation is that it is inferior), then it is flatly absurd to argue (as you seem to be arguing here) that "D must be as good as A, B, and C: the defect is in your perception of the product."

 

I don't like the PoE mechanics for various reasons (far beyond "That's not the way it was in the Infinity Engine games"):  those perceptions are valid regardless of whether or not Sawyer (or anyone else, for that matter) agrees with me.  If enough people agree with me, then Sawyer will have to take these ideas into account or risk the financial success of his future products -- if more people agree with Sawyer than myself, then he will best receive success by ignoring my criticisms. 

 

"Past performance is not an indicator of future results", basically.

 

I was answering to this: Yea so PoE was doomed to be worse by default I suppose...PoE is saddled with his ****ty version of D&D or w/e the hell crap mechanics he wants to call PoE.

And I'd argue that creating a whole game system (DnD was being developed over the years and had feedback of thousands of players before the BG was even in the plans) with all the mechanics is a process which takes a lot of effort and can't be rushed. I believe that for the time of development and the size of the team, PoE mechanics are very solid and should simply be improved upon. 

[Captain Shrek]

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. His bitter critics here don't appear to have designed much of anything, and the stuff that they are so angry about ranges from 'don't care' to 'flatly disagree' to 'perhaps, but fixable' in my book. I'll give the guy behind Door#1 the benefit of the doubt.

Don't you forget NWN2 OC. 

[MReed]

I was answering to this: Yea so PoE was doomed to be worse by default I suppose...PoE is saddled with his ****ty version of D&D or w/e the hell crap mechanics he wants to call PoE.

And I'd argue that creating a whole game system (DnD was being developed over the years and had feedback of thousands of players before the BG was even in the plans) with all the mechanics is a process which takes a lot of effort and can't be rushed. I believe that for the time of development and the size of the team, PoE mechanics are very solid and should simply be improved upon. 

 

 

I was only responding to Ohioastro's post (which seems to imply that, because Sawyer has built good games in the past, his current game must also be good).  I actually largely agree with your post -- successful game development is an iterative process, and it is not unreasonable to assume that future iterations will improve matters.

 

On the other hand, you have the progression from DAO -> DA2 -> DA3, where (IMO) each game feature (in my mind) worse mechanics than the previous, or (again, in my opinion) the progress from BG1 -> PoE, where I believe the benefits offered by positive innovations in PoE are outweighed by the negative innovations (although not by an enormous amount).

 

Most of my mechanical objections revolve around either engagement (to the extant that it encourages the player not to move) and "balance is king" (to the extant that it tries to discourage "power builds").  Unless / until someone at Obsidian acknowledges that these are areas of concerns that need to be addressed, there is little reason for me to be hopeful for PoE 2.

[Volourn]

"Especially considering how small their team was."

\

Did you check the credits? L0L

 

 

"Icewind Dale 2"

 

IWD2 was a subpar game.

 

 

 

 

"His bitter critics here don't appear to have designed much of anything"

 

So... assuming you haven't worked on tv/movies, written a book, or play a game I assume you have never criticzed any of those right you? You know what they call people like you? Hypocritical.

 

"and Fallout New Vegas."

 

 

NV was really good.

 

But, don't forget NWN2 OC which was simply okay.

 

 

"the stuff that they are so angry about ranges from 'don't care' to 'flatly disagree' to 'perhaps, but fixable' in my book."

 

L0L Every game could be fixable.. if the designer thinks its broken.

 

\However, things that suck in this game whether you like it or not: stronghold is garbage, the npcs are subpar (espciially sad when Obsidian is owned by a dev who has made some of the best RPG NPCs ever yet he was told to shut his mouth and don't write), the xp reward system is out of whack, the main story is a blatant chosen one/DOS ripoff, the game has lots of horrible writing passed off as gobbleygook, and the C&C is done haphazardly - sometiems great sometimes compeltely and utterly awful.

 

 

 

\And, oh btw, all that criticism comes  from a poster WHO LIKES THE GAME.

 

 

Now, stop being a n apologitic fanboy, mmmmmmmmmmmmmkayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!?!

[Captain Shrek]

Frankly, NWN2 combat was a nightmare. Does anyone remember those horrible rogue filled rooms in the NW manor? Or the Orc caves? Or how rogues were *made* useless by filling the game to brim with undead hordes? In many ways, these are the same problems that IWD2 faced. As well as PoE. I personally feel that 3.5 D&D is a great RPG mechanics facility, not perfect, but still great nonetheless, which has received a bad name as it was abused by bad developers. 

[SKull]

 

 

 

 

Yea so PoE was doomed to be worse by default I suppose...PoE is saddled with his ****ty version of D&D or w/e the hell crap mechanics he wants to call PoE.

 

 

This is really the problem with all modern CRPGs. People tend to talk with ignorant contempt about AD&D but that was RPG for decades and decades; all developed by the gamers themselves for years andn years. Every single detail of AD&D was there for a reason. The job of Black Isle wasn`t to reinvent the wheel but to move the 30 year RPG tradition AD&D represented over to a new medium, period. But at the same time the development of RPGs was taken away from the gamers themselves and put in the hands of more or less clueless devs who all later decided to reinvent the wheel because they had forgotten what their job was. And we have no way of complaining and, because of CRPGs replacing our traditional RPGs, very few alternatives. It is impossible for a development team to make a new system that is even close to being as good as AD&D was. It can`t be done. So why do they keep trying?

[Grinch]

 

 

 

 

 

Yea so PoE was doomed to be worse by default I suppose...PoE is saddled with his ****ty version of D&D or w/e the hell crap mechanics he wants to call PoE.

 

 

This is really the problem with all modern CRPGs. People tend to talk with ignorant contempt about AD&D but that was RPG for decades and decades; all developed by the gamers themselves for years andn years. Every single detail of AD&D was there for a reason. The job of Black Isle wasn`t to reinvent the wheel but to move the 30 year RPG tradition AD&D represented over to a new medium, period. But at the same time the development of RPGs was taken away from the gamers themselves and put in the hands of more or less clueless devs who all later decided to reinvent the wheel because they had forgotten what their job was. And we have no way of complaining and, because of CRPGs replacing our traditional RPGs, very few alternatives. It is impossible for a development team to make a new system that is even close to being as good as AD&D was. It can`t be done. So why do they keep trying?

 

I think part of the problem is they all want to create a 'blockbluster' type hit and become 'rockstar' famous. They would be much better off just targeting a possibly somewhat smaller but specific audience (AD&D, D&D crowd) than to target a general audience. I also think a lot of it has to do with ego. They think they can create something better than the system that 's been around and established for almost 40 years. Like you said, they don' t need to reinvent the wheel.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

And I'd argue that creating a whole game system (DnD was being developed over the years and had feedback of thousands of players before the BG was even in the plans) with all the mechanics is a process which takes a lot of effort and can't be rushed. I believe that for the time of development and the size of the team, PoE mechanics are very solid and should simply be improved upon. 

 

And yet Sawyer says in regards to crpg rule sets: pretty much all games get it wrong IMO. And there was a lot of feedback from players in the beta which was ignored because of ~feels~.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Grinch]

 

And I'd argue that creating a whole game system (DnD was being developed over the years and had feedback of thousands of players before the BG was even in the plans) with all the mechanics is a process which takes a lot of effort and can't be rushed. I believe that for the time of development and the size of the team, PoE mechanics are very solid and should simply be improved upon. 

 

And yet Sawyer says in regards to crpg rule sets: pretty much all games get it wrong IMO. And there was a lot of feedback from players in the beta which was ignored because of ~feels~.

 

Sounds like Sawyer may be the one who's wrong and not everybody else.

[Volourn]

Well.. if Sawyer's rule is that 'pretty much all games get it wrong'... his game isn't the exception to it. L0L

 

 

P.S. I actually like PE's rules system overall but that's largely because of what it has in common with other RPG rules systems most specifically DnD.

 

It's sad that all these 'awesome' changes he presumes to make... the best thing about his rules system is the stuff he gets from  rules systems that he loathes. HAHAHA!

[scrotiemcb]

 

And I'd argue that creating a whole game system (DnD was being developed over the years and had feedback of thousands of players before the BG was even in the plans) with all the mechanics is a process which takes a lot of effort and can't be rushed. I believe that for the time of development and the size of the team, PoE mechanics are very solid and should simply be improved upon. 

 

And yet Sawyer says in regards to crpg rule sets: pretty much all games get it wrong IMO. And there was a lot of feedback from players in the beta which was ignored because of ~feels~.

 

This is the nature of science. Did Newton have gravity wrong? Yes. Yes he did. Does this mean Einstein could completely ignore Newton? No. No he couldn't.

 

There is always room for further improvement, but the smartest thing is to start with the current status quo and innovate from there.

[LeonKowalski]

This game makes rooky mistakes in rules design ... D100 being the most obvious one. It's uselessly fine grained with the only real benefit being "it's not D20". You might think it makes the math more intuitive, but you would be wrong because most people don't have a feel for absolute vs. relative percentages to begin with. D100 is one of those things naive designers think will have a benefit, because they don't truly understand the downsides of flat RNGs ... D100 only feels like it would solve any of them, but all it can do is make the numbers bigger.

 

There is a lot of NIH syndrome as well (or simply a complete lack of knowledge of RPG rulesets). Things like bonus type names (there are still bonus types, but it's completely obtuse to the player) and the concepts of tumble&ACP (people in light armour should be mobile) should just have been copied.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Haven't read all 17 pages. But going off of general topic. Probably unfair to compare BG1/BG2 to PoE. BG1/BG2 were still AAA titles and PoE is not. Huge budget differences.

 

BG1 at the time was considered to have brought the cRPG game back to life. Even though Fallout 1 came out the previous year. Then BG2 was a monster of a game. Pound for Pound Undisputed Champion of all cRPG's. Yes I know someone is going to say Planescape but honestly BG2 combat a million times better.

 

And anything going up against D&D being created from scratch is a challenge. D&D has been out for what 40 years? Look at what inXile is doing for Torment: Tides of Numenera. They went with a P&P ruleset instead of creating one from scratch.

 

I would say it would be fair to compare PoE to Wasteland 2 and Divinity Original Sin though. I take PoE over them 2. 1 playthrough of W2 and 3 playthroughs of D:OS.

 

PoE will have for it what Bg1 had going for it. PoE 2 could therefore be legendary.

[Stun]

I don't think the Budget differences were all that great.

 

PoE cost just over $4 million to make. How much did BG1 cost to make?

[FlintlockJazz]

I don't think the Budget differences were all that great.

 

PoE cost just over $4 million to make. How much did BG1 cost to make?

I believe I have heard BG1 cost $5 million, but that was in 1998.  Taking inflation into account that would be $7.2 million.  I believe BG2 cost $20 million in 2000, not counting inflation.

Edited May 7, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[View619]

That's a pretty huge difference just for BG1. And that's without the need to create a new setting from scratch.

[constantine]

I hate saying this, but playing PoE has gotten me into starting another playthrough of the BG 'trilogy'

 

[Ohioastro]

 

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. His bitter critics here don't appear to have designed much of anything, and the stuff that they are so angry about ranges from 'don't care' to 'flatly disagree' to 'perhaps, but fixable' in my book. I'll give the guy behind Door#1 the benefit of the doubt.

 

This would make sense if the game wasn't released to the public, but...

 

It is.

 

Surely, given a released product one can reasonably pass judgement on it -- understanding, of course, that others might disagree.  If X has released products A, B, and C to widespread acclaim (and possibly to your own acclaim), and has now released product D that doesn't receive widespread acclaim (and/or your personal evaluation is that it is inferior), then it is flatly absurd to argue (as you seem to be arguing here) that "D must be as good as A, B, and C: the defect is in your perception of the product."

 

I don't like the PoE mechanics for various reasons (far beyond "That's not the way it was in the Infinity Engine games"):  those perceptions are valid regardless of whether or not Sawyer (or anyone else, for that matter) agrees with me.  If enough people agree with me, then Sawyer will have to take these ideas into account or risk the financial success of his future products -- if more people agree with Sawyer than myself, then he will best receive success by ignoring my criticisms. 

 

"Past performance is not an indicator of future results", basically.

 

 

 

You should rate a game on how good it is, agreed.  I was reacting purely to the personal (ad hominum) attacks on Sawyer, to the effect that everything he does is crap, that several people in this thread have repeatedly made.  Whenever I see basically anonymous internet people making personal attacks like that it just makes me discount whatever they're saying.  It's the old lawyer joke:  "When the facts are on your side, pound the facts.  When they aren't, pound the table." 

 

I am interested in games with engaging environments, interesting character development, and game play challenges / puzzles that make me think.  A game that captures those ingredients from the old IE games is a good one in my book, regardless of rule system.  In general I'm a lot more interested in a new system (like PoE) than in a rehash of old systems, largely because there is so *&()) much baggage with the old games - people will flip out if you make the most trivial changes in the formula.  It can actually be better to just hit "reset" on mechanics and focus on capturing the spirit of fun - which frequently has nothing to do with the particular things that veteran players obsess about.

[Stun]

That's a pretty huge difference just for BG1. And that's without the need to create a new setting from scratch.

Not really. They did have to create a new engine from scratch. And the software tools were much more expensive and far less efficient back then. Plus they had to pay all the licensing fees for the rights to use both the Forgotten Realms setting and the AD&D ruleset.

 

Oh, and contrary to the ridiculous Hyperbole, BG2 did not cost $20 Million to make.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Stun

[Awathorn]

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. 

 

And IWD2 was the weakest part of BG-IWD era. NWN2OC must be one of buggiest, most boring games in the whole genre. 

 

Actually, PoE is probably the best Sawyer game for me. Pleasant graphics, nice music, serviceable story and combat, reasonable number of bugs. 

[MReed]

 

 

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. His bitter critics here don't appear to have designed much of anything, and the stuff that they are so angry about ranges from 'don't care' to 'flatly disagree' to 'perhaps, but fixable' in my book. I'll give the guy behind Door#1 the benefit of the doubt.

 

This would make sense if the game wasn't released to the public, but...

 

It is.

 

Surely, given a released product one can reasonably pass judgement on it -- understanding, of course, that others might disagree.  If X has released products A, B, and C to widespread acclaim (and possibly to your own acclaim), and has now released product D that doesn't receive widespread acclaim (and/or your personal evaluation is that it is inferior), then it is flatly absurd to argue (as you seem to be arguing here) that "D must be as good as A, B, and C: the defect is in your perception of the product."

 

I don't like the PoE mechanics for various reasons (far beyond "That's not the way it was in the Infinity Engine games"):  those perceptions are valid regardless of whether or not Sawyer (or anyone else, for that matter) agrees with me.  If enough people agree with me, then Sawyer will have to take these ideas into account or risk the financial success of his future products -- if more people agree with Sawyer than myself, then he will best receive success by ignoring my criticisms. 

 

"Past performance is not an indicator of future results", basically.

 

 

 

You should rate a game on how good it is, agreed.  I was reacting purely to the personal (ad hominum) attacks on Sawyer, to the effect that everything he does is crap, that several people in this thread have repeatedly made.  Whenever I see basically anonymous internet people making personal attacks like that it just makes me discount whatever they're saying.  It's the old lawyer joke:  "When the facts are on your side, pound the facts.  When they aren't, pound the table." 

 

I am interested in games with engaging environments, interesting character development, and game play challenges / puzzles that make me think.  A game that captures those ingredients from the old IE games is a good one in my book, regardless of rule system.  In general I'm a lot more interested in a new system (like PoE) than in a rehash of old systems, largely because there is so *&()) much baggage with the old games - people will flip out if you make the most trivial changes in the formula.  It can actually be better to just hit "reset" on mechanics and focus on capturing the spirit of fun - which frequently has nothing to do with the particular things that veteran players obsess about.

 

 

I assume you were refering to me, as I'm the first one that brought up Sawyer's name in this thread.

 

What I posted is nothing but the objective truth:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39401-armor-abstractions-in-fallouts-special-game-system/?do=findComment&comment=526647 ("...I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.")  Note that this predates the PoE Kickstarter by several years.

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/449392305086952316 Saywer's response, posted when the first message was dug up ( after the Kickstarter).

 

All I stated was the objective truth about Saywer's opinions on BG2 and pointed out that, as a result, having the project team play BG1EE / BG2EE probably wouldn't have made a significant difference in the development of PoE (in fact, I rather expect that they did play them, at least BG1 / BG2, along with the other Infinity Engine games -- it was just in the context of "OK, don't make this mistake in PoE", rather than "This is exactly how PoE should feel").

 

What's the ad hominum fallacy here?

[bonarbill]

 

Let's see: Sawyer was lead designer on Icewind Dale 2 and Fallout New Vegas. 

 

And IWD2 was the weakest part of BG-IWD era. NWN2OC must be one of buggiest, most boring games in the whole genre. 

 

Actually, PoE is probably the best Sawyer game for me. Pleasant graphics, nice music, serviceable story and combat, reasonable number of bugs. 

 

 

Don't know why people keep saying NWN2 OC was a sawyer game, because it was not.  He only took over to finish it up after the original head of the project went to bioware.

[Volourn]

It was a Sawyer game. He was the lead. That's a FACT.

[bonarbill]

It was a Sawyer game. He was the lead. That's a FACT.

 

It's not he's game.  He had to salvage what Ferret Baudoin lefted over.  That's a FACT.

 

Not like it matters who game it is.  I love NWN2.  <3

Edited May 7, 2015 by bonarbill

[Volourn]

I thought it was solid too. Still doesn't change the fact that it was, in the end, Sawyer's game. He was the LEAD.