The truth behind the words in constantine's "The 'Truth' behind words in RPG Codex's #1 Review for PoE "

[Sensuki]

I would like to point out that constantine's thread here about the author of the RPGCodex review #1 is full of fallacy, and he does not even remotely know the author, or his opinions.

 

He says in his third post in the thread

 

What is important to me is that people who haven't played the game yet and stumble into the RPGCodec Review #1 topic, can later check that one-

 

the truth about it.

Well, if that's the case - I consider it important to me to point out "the truth" about this post.

 

To clarify things, Darth Roxor's essay about PoE cannot be considered a 'review', despite the author names it such, if only for the staggering amount of spoilers it contains. A reader has to avoid/skip sentences or be spoiled of the acts of the main quest, certain sidequests and encounters of the game.

As far as I am aware, a review is allowed to contain spoilers. In fact, there are plenty of reviews online that contain spoilers. A simple google search will produce such results.

 

The other review for the Codex is going to be written by the prestigious Vault Dweller who recently let us know his opinion of reviews:

 

A review is nothing but 'I liked it, here is why' or 'I hated, here is why'. It would be dishonest to like a game yet rip it apart (every game has flaws) or hate a game yet give it a favorable review.

 

A good reviewer (and I'm not saying I am one) should explain why he liked or disliked it, so that the reader wouldn't have to take his word for it but be able to form his own opinion based on the info provided. I believe I've done that and even though it's clear that I liked the game, the review contains plenty of warnings. I explained the setting, character and combat systems in details, so that people can decide for themselves if the game is for them. Beyond that...

The aforementioned Pillars of Eternity review by Darth Roxor is essentially "I hated it, here's why" - that's a review, whether you like it or not.

 

Now to the essay itself. The long, tiring to read block of text boils down to this:

 

'I wanted a crpg with Baldur's Gate's (..BG2, IWD1,2) mechanics.'

I contest the notion that Darth Roxor wanted a CRPG with Baldur's Gate (or rather Infinity Engine) mechanics. I am under the impression that Darth Roxor is neither a big fan of D&D or the Infinity Engine games. His favourite recent RPG is a game called Blackguards which is a strategy RPG with turn-based combat. Blackguards received critical acclaim on the Codex for it's deep and challenging combat system.

 

Based on this I can conclude that Darth Roxor simply wanted a game with good combat. He seems to have enjoyed the Baldur's Gate 2 combat but thought Baldur's Gate was mediocre, according to his statements made in the review. He played Pillars of Eternity and did not think the combat was very good. This is not a controversial opinion as there are lots of people (including myself) that criticize the combat as poor for one reason or another. Darth Roxor illustrated the same issues that myself and many others on this forum and on the RPGCodex have with the combat.

 

B.The author thinks Attributes in PoE do not offer considerable bonuses, then proposes to the reader min-maxing attribute options for various character combat roles, in essence contradicting himself, while proposing a certain power-gaming playstyle in a review.

Darth Roxor made an individual comment about each attribute and then provided a summary, moving onto the other parts of the character system. He did not contradict himself as constantine said - he outlined which attributes he thought were weaker than others and then summarized that you can dump attributes based on your combat role.

 

In his summary of the character system he stated that:

 

everything you pick is kind of, sort of, equally useful (with some exceptions). But the flipside to this is that everything is also equally bland. The characters are samey. The playstyles for different parties hardly ever differ, unless you go for something crazy like 6 wizards. The statistics you pick hardly even matter as long as you have the levels to support them. It is simply weak, generic and uninteresting to boot, and it’s particularly funny just how much it feels like a neutered DnD.

He is saying here is that in trying to make everything equally useful, the system is less interesting than D&D. I assume he's talking about D&D 3E/3.5E which has a very rich character system that lends itself well to min-maxing and crazy multi-class power gaming builds.

 

He continues with

 

But speaking of DnD, I suppose a question needs asking: how does this system compare to the IE games? Well, it definitely has more options than the early 2nd edition ones, like BGs and IWD1, but it simply can’t match Obsidian’s very own NWN2, or hell, maybe even IWD2. Not to mention that the character systems of the IE games were weak to begin with, and saying that PoE reaches higher than that is not exactly much of a praise.

Everything he says here is absolutely correct.

 

The character system does not reward min-maxing and munchkin builds as much as D&D 3E/3.5E, in the sense that even if you do make such a build in Pillars of Eternity that they end up 'feeling similar' to playing a completely different character, due to the way the character system works.

 

It was one of the goals of the character system to be this way, and I believe the 'feeling similar' to a different character part was not an intentional thing, as the outcome or 'feel' was not the focus in the first place.

 

Darth Roxor simply thinks this is a bad thing.

 

C.The author claims encounters in PoE are uninterested, easily exploited and fall into MMO-like resolutions. Those statements are not entirely false, but the typical player, who doesn't specifically look to cheat the game, *will* have a vastly different experience.

Constantine then goes on to kind of agree(?) with the three statements that encounters are uninteresting, easily beaten and feel a bit MMO-ish. However he then goes on to make a statement about the "typical player", who doesn't specifically look to "cheat the game" and how they will have a vastly different experience.

 

If you change "cheat the game" to a person who "is good at combat in games" then you have a true statement. People who learn systems and gameplay and optimize their playing tend to find Pillars of Eternity's combat a dull, repetitive affair - as Darth Roxor does. Others who may not necessarily learn systems, perform optimal movements and actions in combat or learn from their mistakes, if they even realize they are making one - these people will have a great time.

 

The difference here is, Darth Roxor belongs to the former crowd, whereas Pillars of Eternity's combat is aimed more at the latter crowd. This is why constantine might enjoy it but Darth Roxor does not.

 

This next bit is where it gets gnarly

 

And since the author judges PoE from the old games perspective, it is another insult to the reader's face to choose to ignore how broken, unbalanced and full of exploits combat was in those games. No need to detail here, those issues are known for years. Mind you, I still love and play the old games, but I intentionally hamper myself to enjoy challenge in combat.

Pillars of Eternity also includes quite a few exploits, as demonstrated by the first person who completed a TCS. There are also more broken and imbalanced combos. One thing may be that Obsidian (well, Josh Sawyer) care more about exploit preventation that BioWare did, and have been trying to actively remove them and they had the benefit of a 7 month backer beta to help them do so. I think this statement is unfair because both games include these things. The difference is that Constantine may not know about the exploits yet as he does with the Infinity Engine exploits, and maybe he finds it hard to resist using them or something as he thinks that not using them is 'hampering himself' to enjoy the game. I disagree with the notion that not using exploits is 'hampering yourself', it's simply not using exploits/cheating.

 

D.The author is not satisfied with role-playing elements in dialogue choices, PoE's reputation system and world reactivity to player's action.

 

Again, judging the game from the perspective of the old games, he continues to blatantly lie. The old games (save PS:T) had zero reactivity and only an illusion of rp, most of the part occuring in the player's head, since the actual games (almost) never delivered. Mind you, I love the old games, but one has to give credit where is due (unlike the RPG Codex's 'reviewer'). PoE is tons more rpg than the old legendary ie rpgs.

This also has a bunch of false statements in it. Here is what he had to say about reactivity

 

Obsidian even put in a whole system tracking the player’s reputation and demeanor. Most dialogue options you pick have a mood associated with them (aggressive, stoic, rational, etc), and every now and again you’ll find NPCs reacting to them if your score is big enough. Sometimes it can even alter quests in a minor way or scare a combat encounter away. The system has its issues because the reputations aren't mutually exclusive, so you can be known as cruel, benevolent, honest and deceptive at the same time, plus many of their dialogue lines aren't very well-written (all you do as a [stoic] person is nod at everything), but at least it’s something, a good idea. And it’s simply another element in PoE that is disappointingly underused.

Darth Roxor did not make a comparison of the reactivity in the Infinity Engine games and Pillars of Eternity other than the fact that if you attack people in the Infinity Engine games you lose reputation and people turn hostile, which more often than not does not happen in Pillars of Eternity (you might lose reputation but people don't care).

 

He did however think that the disposition system was underused.

 

Constantine is right that Pillars of Eternity contains more reactivity as a whole than any of the Infinity Engine games that are not Planescape: Torment, but one of the problems is that this reactivity is spread very thin over the many races, classes, cultures, backgrounds, reputations with various factions and dispositions - so while there is a large gross of reactivity based on these things in total, you may not actually experience many of them. They made it difficult for themselves in that regard with the sheer amount of options, probably going way overboard.

 

Darth Roxor finds this disappointing, especially coming from Obsidian.

 

Then there are some parts about the 'review' that are plainly mean. Darth Roxor must really hate some Obsidian people to throw so much vile. He is unfair about the quality of writing, quest content and resolution and the thematics of the main quest.

I don't see any hate here, considering that Darth Roxor stated that he enjoyed past Obsidian games. I see disappointment that he thought that the writing was not as good as their past games that had any sort of focus on writing.

 

I link you here to a 40 page thread discussing "the writing is average": http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-writing-in-this-game-is-average.98103/ that contains many good points.

 

In summary, I disagree with everything Constantine says in his thread. Darth Roxor's review IS a review, which makes many good points, and he did not just want "BG mechanics".

 

You do not have to agree with his review, feel free to make up your own mind. Coming from Roxor's gaming background I can easily see why he feels the way he does.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Sensuki

[ShadowStorm]

I'm sorry, you've described yourself as a power player. If that is to be believed, then go find a game that caters to that, ok? Stop the whining. 

[Serdan]

Why did you start a new thread for this?

[Luckmann]

I see what you did there.

 

 

 

Why did you start a new thread for this?

 

 

 

I had to, or else my words would end up buried in 45something pages of poster vs poster arguments.

And there isn't a matter of importance, rather than every man stating their views and be criticised for them.

 

Yes, makes enough sense to me. Is there a forum rule against it ?

What is important to me is that people who haven't played the game yet and stumble into the RPGCodec Review #1 topic, can later check that one-

the truth about it.

[Ramireza]

We all know that you an a few other people do not like the game.

 

So whats the point?

 

Tastes are different, many people here and on the codex loves/likes PoE and you will not change this, deal with that.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Ramireza

[b0rsuk]

Why did you start a new thread for this?

 

Attention.

Edited April 27, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Sensuki]

I see what you did there.

 

 

 

Why did you start a new thread for this?

 

 

 

I had to, or else my words would end up buried in 45something pages of poster vs poster arguments.

 

And there isn't a matter of importance, rather than every man stating their views and be criticised for them.

 

Yes, makes enough sense to me. Is there a forum rule against it ?

 

What is important to me is that people who haven't played the game yet and stumble into the RPGCodec Review #1 topic, can later check that one-

 

the truth about it.

 

Spot on

[IndiraLightfoot]

Let me see if I get this straight:

You bothered replying at length, and with a whole thread at that, on a single Obsidian forum member's opinion on a RPGCodex review about PoE, which you yourself posted on the very same forum? 

Even weirder, this Darth Roxor fella never replies in person, instead you act as his mouthpiece, reminding me of Mouth of Sauron:

 

Moreover, why on earth do you have some carte blanche to act as RPGCodex mouthpiece on the Obsidian forums? You very often refer to that community, but when confronted you deny it?

I know that you are disappointed in the game, Sensuki, but the posts on your behalf as of late, well they certainly border on mega-trolling on the Obsidian forums. Your contributions during the beta is legendary, don't burn all the bridges here by acting silly, please.

 

And our moderator Tigranes said there should be only one thread going on that RPGCodex review (one too many, if you ask me), so this will be closed, JFYI.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78620-the-truth-behind-words-in-rpg-codexs-1-review-for-poe/?p=1676744

 

Cheers!

Edited April 27, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Yellow Rabbit]

Darn. Now I feel urge to create a new thread named "the lie behind the threads about the truth behind the codexian review" just to counterbalance things a little.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Yellow Rabbit

[PrimeJunta]

The Implosion of Sensuki has been a depressing spectacle to watch. I'm sure there are lessons to be learned there, but damned if I know what they are. 

 

The Codex, as always, remains The Codex. Maybe some of you guys ought to check out the discussion on the topic there -- as most things in that place, it starts out sharp, intelligent, and occasionally witty, then everybody dials their opinions to the absurd extreme, and then it turns into lulz.

 

[Sensuki]

At least Luckmann has a sense of humor

[gogocactus]

Darn. Now I feel urge to create a new thread named "the lie behind the threads about the truth behind the codexian review" just to counterbalance things a little.

I strongly encourage this xD

[Hiro Protagonist II]

There were people who did agree with Darth Roxor's review or at the very least quite a few points in the original (close to 900 post) thread. I'd have to say I agree with a lot of what Darth Roxor had to say as well.

[Luckmann]

Darn. Now I feel urge to create a new thread named "the lie behind the threads about the truth behind the codexian review" just to counterbalance things a little.

Me too. Unfortunately, we'll have to find an idiot to do it, because none of the intellectually honest ones can do it to this one.

 

There were people who did agree with Darth Roxor's review or at the very least quite a few points in the original (close to 900 post) thread. I'd have to say I agree with a lot of what Darth Roxor had to say as well.

Most of the initial posts before the thread veered off course was practically "This is a s**t review but it's still not exactly wrong". Then the fanboy brigade got their panties in a twist and sand in their vaginas over the whole thing and blew everything out of proportion like the prissy little drama queens they are.

 

Let me see if I get this straight:

You bothered replying at length, and with a whole thread at that, on a single Obsidian forum member's opinion on a RPGCodex review about PoE, which you yourself posted on the very same forum? 

Even weirder, this Darth Roxor fella never replies in person, instead you act as his mouthpiece, reminding me of Mouth of Sauron:

 

Moreover, why on earth do you have some carte blanche to act as RPGCodex mouthpiece on the Obsidian forums? You very often refer to that community, but when confronted you deny it?

I know that you are disappointed in the game, Sensuki, but the posts on your behalf as of late, well they certainly border on mega-trolling on the Obsidian forums. Your contributions during the beta is legendary, don't burn all the bridges here by acting silly, please.

 

And our moderator Tigranes said there should be only one thread going on that RPGCodex review (one too many, if you ask me), so this will be closed, JFYI.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78620-the-truth-behind-words-in-rpg-codexs-1-review-for-poe/?p=1676744

 

Cheers!

Indiralightfoot and at least 5 others did not see it.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sensuki]

I'm sure there are lessons to be learned there, but damned if I know what they are.

(It's only a model)

[Vi.king]

Next up at Obsidian Forums The real truth behind the truth behind the truth. Do not miss it. Grap your popcorn now.

[swordofthesith]

Spam, tbh. 

[Luckmann]

 

I'm sure there are lessons to be learned there, but damned if I know what they are.

(It's only a model)

 

Codexia.

 

 

Codexia!

 

Codexia!

 

 

 

... (It's only a model)

 

 

 

We're knights of the flame table;

We dance whenever we're able.

We do routines and cause some scenes;

with postwork impec-cable.

 

We dine well here in Codexalot;

We eat bile and ham, and spam a lot,

 

We're knights of the flametable,

Our shows are form-i-dable;

But many times we're given rhymes,

That are quite un-hing-able.

 

We're drama mad in Codexalot,

We scream from the diaphragm a lot.

 

In flamewar we're tough and able,

quite in-de-fatigue-able;

Between our quests we hunt down pests,

and explain things when able.

 

I have to puuush the points a-looooot.

 

Di di di di di didi didi di di.

 

 

On second thought, let's not go to Codexia. 'T'is a silly place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Luckmann

[Hiro Protagonist II]

God I love this forum.

[Yellow Rabbit]

Me too. Unfortunately, we'll have to find an idiot to do it, because none of the intellectually honest ones can do it to this one.

Apparently, there's a shortage of idiots at the moment. Why do I feel disappointed?

[PrimeJunta]

@Luckmann :applause:

 

That was good. We need to get it into the game. Here's the plan:

 

Step 1: Find another offensive backer memorial rhyme.

Step 2: Agree with the author that he -- probably he -- will change it if requested.

Step 3: 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Apparently, I'm too old to play this game: Guess what tone the post/thread was made in. And is it really funny even then, I mean, having a go at... Hmm, wonder whether this vitriol or bile is for real this time or fake. It's still trolling and spamming to a semi-oldie like me. It's tiresome, at least, that much I'm sure of. I wish I had the iron will of Stun when he for instance debates Gromnir, but sadly I don't.

[PrimeJunta]

@IndiraLightfoot I'm pretty sure Stun is actually a golem. That's kind of unfair.

[Sensuki]

He actually did a really good job in his last argument with gromnir. I would even wager to say he was winning, as gromnir just kept quoting himself and couldn't be bothered writing anything new lol.
 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

@Luckmann :applause:

 

That was good. We need to get it into the game. Here's the plan:

 

Step 1: Find another offensive backer memorial rhyme.

Step 2: Agree with the author that he -- probably he -- will change it if requested.

Step 3: 

 

But PrimeJunta. In order for me to be able to find another offensive memorial, I first need to find a first memorial that's offensive.

 

 

This thread is going places.