The 'Truth' behind words in RPG Codex's #1 Review for PoE

[ShadowStorm]

I read that review on rpgcodex. Searching for some redeeming thing about it. But it wasn't a review in the end as much as the self entitled rant. 

 

Infantile. Boring. Unhelpful. Waste of time.

 

Were there any points of criticism made, is neither here nor there, because such things can be read in an actual review that isn't a nerdrage temper tantrum. 

 

The author of that waste of space has clearly cornered the market for soothing cream, because he clearly needs every liquid ounce of high grade rectal soothing cream, just for himself. 

 

The article is a spectacle of butthurt made manifest. 

[Ninjerk]

^ damn, rekt

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Normally we'd close duplicate threads, but we just closed the main one (the forum has a weird quirk and starts to go crazy when threads get too long). So let's make this one Part Two.

 

If this is supposed to be Part 2, then the thread title should be changed to reflect that.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Actually, that makes sense.

[jools1980]

B.The author thinks Attributes in PoE do not offer considerable bonuses, then proposes to the reader min-maxing attribute options for various character combat roles, in essence contradicting himself, while proposing a certain power-gaming playstyle in a review.

 

It is true that Attributes in PoE have lesser impact, which is in fact an achievement. That way one player's Aloth with his 'crap stats' wouldn't fall that much behind a min-maxed wizard another player hired. At the same time, a player who loves min-maxed attributes will get something out of them. It's the best of both worlds.

 

All considerations about the review apart, I have to disagree with you on this. From a "realism" and "coherence" standpoint, it really doesn't make sense that a non min-maxed character is only slightly behind a min-maxed one. I am not a fan of min-max'ing personally, and my critique to this system is that it really takes away a good part of the inherent meaning of attributes themselves.

 

A min-maxed mercenary should be strong as hell and dumb as a doorknob, or strong as hell and slow as growing grass, and the balance should be found in those kind of tradeoffs (think Davide VS Goliath stereotypes, to fit this example of mine). Rather than "balance", the system in PoE achieves "blandness": the influence of attributes is only slightly noticeable, and the feeling is that all characters are at least decent at most activities. Rather than the (quoting you) "best of both worlds", I felt that this was the "mean and rounded average of both worlds".

 

Sure, this makes it easier to assemble a functional party (I switched companions many times, and I was in no particular difficulty, nor advantage, with any party lineup), but it also takes away one aspect of RPGs that many of us loved.

Edited April 27, 2015 by jools1980

[Sedrefilos]

One day, some people played Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate and had their life changed forever. From that time on, they tried to convince the rest of the world who lived in darkness that everything should be made that way or not at all. From video games to toilet paper. And that's it.

 

Yeah, this post is boring as are these people.

 

Constatine, χέσ' τους.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Constantine: εσύ αγαπάς το παιχνίδι

That's all that matters.

[archangel979]

Normally we'd close duplicate threads, but we just closed the main one (the forum has a weird quirk and starts to go crazy when threads get too long). So let's make this one Part Two.

So how about renaming this one and adding a link in the OP to the original topic so people can easily see what is constantine referencing?

[PrimeJunta]

@archangel979 Keep telling the mods how to do their jobs and I'm sure they'll eventually see it your way.

[constantine]

 

-Attributes in PoE

 

There may well be the game's greatest achievement. Lesser impact, but it is there. Open to let the player try out character builds. *You* people helped for them being what they are now, at a time when you were still caring to contribute to the game.

What are you even talking about? "You people"? I still care about contributing to the game. I do bug reports, I keep raising issues, I keep bringing up stuff to discussion, I comb through it for things that should be improved. What do you do, except brush issues off, act passive-aggressive, and label people left, right and centre?

 

Saying that "we" helped create this is also wrong. I've been pointing out the very clear issues with the Attribute Bonuses since the current set first arrived, in BBv435, a build during which they couldn't even be tested properly, because Interrupt was broken and Dexterity worked in reverse! Then later BBv480 came, had kept the current bonuses, and then there was release.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Not in relation to the mechanics, not in what constitutes constructive criticism, and not what "you people" are all about.

 

-Encounters

 

They *are* falling short- we knew it beforehand. Obsidian told us there is no time to properly develop challenging AI. Encounters are prone to exploitation, *especially* when people are looking for weaknesses to the system. If one plays like normal people do he won't experience the whole lot of it.

It's not the AI. We're not *looking* for weaknesses in the system in order to "exploit" them. You play the game, you develop tactics. These tactics are infantile and simplistic, because much of the system is infantile and simplistic. It is not a single issue; it is a group of mechanics that together work to create rote, banal gameplay. What exactly is supposed to be the "exploit" here? Wherein lies the "cheating"? Wherein lies the "looking for weaknesses to the system"?

 

Stop using these buzzwords to try to obfuscate the issues. They're real, and they should be discussed as real issues.

 

...but the AI could still use some work.

 

-Engagement and Mv in Combat

 

Engagement is too punishing and should be toned down. We've been saying this throughout development. Our voices may be heard sometime. Still, better have harsh engagement than free mv in combat. You all know where *that* ship is sailing.

 

No. Exactly where is that ship sailing? Free movement in combat isn't anything odd or strange. It's pretty damn basic. Now, I'm not saying that the game needs that, necessarily - not at all, I never have. As many will attest, I always lied the idea of the Engagement system, but in play, it has some serious issues, especially when taken together with all the other penalties to movement, both systemic (penalties to recovery for no reason) and fundamental (movement by itself has an opportunity cost to it).

 

But it seems you've all grown past caring for improving this game, more likely ever since @Sensuki stated that it was 'flawed by design' and unfixable.

 

There's no merit to this claim at all. It's ridiculous. There's a lot of people that are consistently critical of the game and come with constructive criticism throughout the entire forum that still evidently care about the game. Myself, Gkthellar, Stun, Monte Carlo, and several others. I have at least 10 bug/issue reports in the last two days alone. Where is your contribution?

 

This is nothing but non-constructive passive-aggressiveness on your part, a manchild that considered his own opinion so important that it was too good for the dedicated thread and needed it's own. If you actually participated in the conversations in a constructive manner, you'd know this to be true. But you're just a butthurt fanboy with no interest in actually discussing on a reasonable level, and it doesn't do anyone or anything any service - least of all the game.

 

At least @Sensuki did one last good thing for me before leaving. I've been playing his dps Fighter disabling build and I've been enjoying it lots.

 

I wonder if it could be because Sensuki has an in-depth knowledge of the game and it's mechanics and have been contributing positively to the development of the game, and it's a damn shame that Sawyer has his own head so far up his own ass that he wasn't listening.

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot of us still think that this is a relatively good game, but more importantly, that the game has the potential to be a fantastic game. That's where all the criticism stems from. That's why I still come with suggestions on how to improve even existing questlines. It's why we examine what went wrong with Defiance Bay. It is why we discuss the issues of the narrative either failing to motivate or rushing you with an ultimatum. It's why there's threads coming up with solutions to the armour dichotomy.

 

Because not only do we nourish a faint hope that these things will be addressed by Obsidian revisiting established content either in patches or expansions, but in examining them, we hope that it will be improved in sequels.

 

 

 

 

Free mv in combat is the root of the problem for ie BG-like crpgs. The bane of all. Most of known combat exploits stem from it.

 

I'm sorry, but all I see behind your embellished words (besides attacking my person and zeroing in any value to any word I post) is how you too are so pissed that this game has engagement (although you backers has explicitly pointing out that it should be gone) and how pissed you are that the mechanics in this game aren't BG-like.

 

 

There is NO point anymore in trying to explain to *you* people why PoE is a good game, with enjoyable combat. It *can* be improved, but the source material is good already. But you will fail to agree to that b/c *you* people refuse to accept the game for what it is. You are a minority though and I wouldn't bother a second less unless for the disappointment I feel for many of you, being so helpful during development and BB and now spitting poison for the game.

 

 

One last thing, as it has been pointed out by a lot of people in the past, *you* people are backers who offer suggestions and not game designers to get things your way.

Edited April 27, 2015 by constantine

[constantine]

I'm done fighting with other posters in this topic or any other and will resume talking about the game and offering suggestions to improve it.

 

 

I would never have done it in the first place, if not for Darth Roxor's post underestimating the intelligence of anyone who has put hours into PoE and classic ie games.

[Sensuki]

free movement is the root of all fun in real-time and action games.

[Luckmann]

 

 

-Attributes in PoE

 

There may well be the game's greatest achievement. Lesser impact, but it is there. Open to let the player try out character builds. *You* people helped for them being what they are now, at a time when you were still caring to contribute to the game.

What are you even talking about? "You people"? I still care about contributing to the game. I do bug reports, I keep raising issues, I keep bringing up stuff to discussion, I comb through it for things that should be improved. What do you do, except brush issues off, act passive-aggressive, and label people left, right and centre?

 

Saying that "we" helped create this is also wrong. I've been pointing out the very clear issues with the Attribute Bonuses since the current set first arrived, in BBv435, a build during which they couldn't even be tested properly, because Interrupt was broken and Dexterity worked in reverse! Then later BBv480 came, had kept the current bonuses, and then there was release.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Not in relation to the mechanics, not in what constitutes constructive criticism, and not what "you people" are all about.

 

-Encounters

 

They *are* falling short- we knew it beforehand. Obsidian told us there is no time to properly develop challenging AI. Encounters are prone to exploitation, *especially* when people are looking for weaknesses to the system. If one plays like normal people do he won't experience the whole lot of it.

It's not the AI. We're not *looking* for weaknesses in the system in order to "exploit" them. You play the game, you develop tactics. These tactics are infantile and simplistic, because much of the system is infantile and simplistic. It is not a single issue; it is a group of mechanics that together work to create rote, banal gameplay. What exactly is supposed to be the "exploit" here? Wherein lies the "cheating"? Wherein lies the "looking for weaknesses to the system"?

 

Stop using these buzzwords to try to obfuscate the issues. They're real, and they should be discussed as real issues.

 

...but the AI could still use some work.

 

-Engagement and Mv in Combat

 

Engagement is too punishing and should be toned down. We've been saying this throughout development. Our voices may be heard sometime. Still, better have harsh engagement than free mv in combat. You all know where *that* ship is sailing.

 

No. Exactly where is that ship sailing? Free movement in combat isn't anything odd or strange. It's pretty damn basic. Now, I'm not saying that the game needs that, necessarily - not at all, I never have. As many will attest, I always lied the idea of the Engagement system, but in play, it has some serious issues, especially when taken together with all the other penalties to movement, both systemic (penalties to recovery for no reason) and fundamental (movement by itself has an opportunity cost to it).

 

But it seems you've all grown past caring for improving this game, more likely ever since @Sensuki stated that it was 'flawed by design' and unfixable.

 

There's no merit to this claim at all. It's ridiculous. There's a lot of people that are consistently critical of the game and come with constructive criticism throughout the entire forum that still evidently care about the game. Myself, Gkthellar, Stun, Monte Carlo, and several others. I have at least 10 bug/issue reports in the last two days alone. Where is your contribution?

 

This is nothing but non-constructive passive-aggressiveness on your part, a manchild that considered his own opinion so important that it was too good for the dedicated thread and needed it's own. If you actually participated in the conversations in a constructive manner, you'd know this to be true. But you're just a butthurt fanboy with no interest in actually discussing on a reasonable level, and it doesn't do anyone or anything any service - least of all the game.

 

At least @Sensuki did one last good thing for me before leaving. I've been playing his dps Fighter disabling build and I've been enjoying it lots.

 

I wonder if it could be because Sensuki has an in-depth knowledge of the game and it's mechanics and have been contributing positively to the development of the game, and it's a damn shame that Sawyer has his own head so far up his own ass that he wasn't listening.

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot of us still think that this is a relatively good game, but more importantly, that the game has the potential to be a fantastic game. That's where all the criticism stems from. That's why I still come with suggestions on how to improve even existing questlines. It's why we examine what went wrong with Defiance Bay. It is why we discuss the issues of the narrative either failing to motivate or rushing you with an ultimatum. It's why there's threads coming up with solutions to the armour dichotomy.

 

Because not only do we nourish a faint hope that these things will be addressed by Obsidian revisiting established content either in patches or expansions, but in examining them, we hope that it will be improved in sequels.

 

 

 

 

Free mv in combat is the root of the problem for ie BG-like crpgs. The bane of all. Most of known combat exploits stem from it.

 

I'm sorry, but all I see behind your embellished words (besides attacking my person and zeroing in any value to any word I post) is how you too are so pissed that this game has engagement (although you backers has explicitly pointing out that it should be gone) and how pissed you are that the mechanics in this game aren't BG-like.

 

 

There is NO point anymore in trying to explain to *you* people why PoE is a good game, with enjoyable combat. It *can* be improved, but the source material is good already. But you will fail to agree to that b/c *you* people refuse to accept the game for what it is. You are a minority though and I wouldn't bother a second less unless for the disappointment I feel for many of you, being so helpful during development and BB and now spitting poison for the game.

 

 

One last thing, as it has been pointed out by a lot of people in the past, *you* people are backers who offer suggestions and not game designers to get things your way.

 

Everyone that read my reply and then see your post knows that you are either a disingenuous and lying sack of manure, or painfully ignorant to the point of defending that ignorance by not even reading my reply.

 

You, sir, are a buffoon.

 

I'm done fighting with other posters in this topic or any other and will resume talking about the game and offering suggestions to improve it.

 

 

I would never have done it in the first place, if not for Darth Roxor's post underestimating the intelligence of anyone who has put hours into PoE and classic ie games.

Yet you underestimate them to the point of saying that they cannot even handle PoE combat, without actively looking for cheats and exploits.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sedrefilos]

free movement is the root of all fun in real-time and action games.

 

Only when they're not tactical party rpgs. It is meaningful if you control one character or an army, but if you're controlling a small squad, pinning mechanics are crucial.

[Hebruixe]

He chooces to lie in our faces about that game department b/c...

 

...taking a **** on someone else's hard work is an easy way to make a name for yourself.

Edited April 27, 2015 by LadyCrimson
language filter is there for a reason

[Sensuki]

Only when they're not tactical party rpgs. It is meaningful if you control one character or an army, but if you're controlling a small squad, pinning mechanics are crucial.

Yes - disable spells and abilities. Not systems that do it for you.

[Sedrefilos]

Whatever the case, these are the mechanics of the game and the vast majority seem to like them. Everyone believes it needs some improvements but not radical changes. What's the purpose of spending precious time of you life ranting in the forums of a game that you don't and won't like? Unless this is the best thing you can do with your spare time.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[Ohioastro]

Calling other people retarded and the like should really provoke moderator action. Personal name calling like that is BS.

[Katarack21]

Calling other people retarded and the like should really provoke moderator action. Personal name calling like that is BS.

Naw. Anybody who can't handle the occasional random insult from some anonymous stranger on the Internet without being protected by the moderators probably has bigger things to worry about then a debate on the PoE boards.

[Luckmann]

Calling other people retarded and the like should really provoke moderator action. Personal name calling like that is BS.

Being retarded should really provoke moderator action.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Only when they're not tactical party rpgs. It is meaningful if you control one character or an army, but if you're controlling a small squad, pinning mechanics are crucial.

Yes - disable spells and abilities. Not systems that do it for you.

 

Why?

[archangel979]

Whatever the case, these are the mechanics of the game and the vast majority seem to like them. Everyone believes it needs some improvements but not radical changes. What's the purpose of spending precious time of you life ranting in the forums of a game that you don't and won't like? Unless this is the best thing you can do with your spare time.

Vast majority likes **** pop singers like Gaga or Spears. PoE was being marketed on KS as a IE spiritual successor and made promises they didn't keep. Edited April 27, 2015 by archangel979

[Exyll]

So some no-name from some forum made a negative review about this game...this warrants response threads?

[gkathellar]

Oh good, you made another thread about it.

 

OP understands that the best troll is the simplest troll - 7/10.

[Katarack21]

 

Whatever the case, these are the mechanics of the game and the vast majority seem to like them. Everyone believes it needs some improvements but not radical changes. What's the purpose of spending precious time of you life ranting in the forums of a game that you don't and won't like? Unless this is the best thing you can do with your spare time.

Vast majority likes **** pop singers like Gaga or Spears. PoE was being marketed on KS as a IE spiritual successor and made promises they didn't keep.

 

Opinions are like ****. It's all good to have one and be proud of it, but nobody really cares about yours nor particularly wants it shoved in their face.