Bruce Jenner "comes out" as female...

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Which is kind of my point! When "natural inclinations" are so eminently malleable by societal norms and expectations, the separation of (biological) sex and (societal) gender makes perfect sense.

 

But they are linked by the very nature of this discussion. Because it's about people who seek to physically change their biological sex.

 

 

...So?

[Guard Dog]

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female? Being male I could give a s--t myself but women look at that kind of thing differently.

[JadedWolf]

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female? Being male I could give a s--t myself but women look at that kind of thing differently.

 

Probably depends on a woman to woman basis?

[Tort]

Man who claim they are Napoleon are locked away as lunatics and treated.

Why a man who claims he is a women is not treated the same?

 

Either allow "Napoleons" to legally change their name and surgically make them resemble the one they claim to be OR lock away transgenders as lunatics and treat them.

 

I'm opposed to the double standards, one standard will do just fine.

Actually, you can claim that you are Napoleon\Elvis\Jesus\etc, and change your name accordingly. And you can't lock up a person for that unless he present danger to self or others. Which isn't the case here.

 

Also in most cases you can even preform cosmetic surgery without psychological evaluation, which isn't the case here. People suffering from gender dysphoria go through a lengthy process before.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Tort

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female?

 

Some of them do.

 

They're generally not considered to be nice people.

[Tort]

To be honest, i (and most people) would feel a bit uncomfortable\self-conscious in similar situation, because subconscious\insecurities\etc tend to win against logic.. especially on topics like this.

[Blarghagh]

Official note. I would like to make the moderation stance clear since this is a very grey area and we do not wish to police what people are allowed to talk about, despite how many other people might find some subjects distasteful.

 

We will allow this discussion as long as people remain civil. Using slurs for transgendered people is not acceptable here regardless of your opinion. Whether you personally find transgenders acceptable or consider them to have a mental illness is irrelevant, because in both cases using slurs or insults breaks one of our rules on discrimination - sexism or ableism.

 

Posts meant only to shame transgender people are subject to deletion and members who post such things will receive warnings and the thread will be closed if civility goes out the window.

 

To be clear, the rest of the post is my personal opinion.

 

I didn't watch the interview because I really don't care. But from what I gather Jenner has been a very unhappy guy for most of his life. It's something I can't really sympathize with because it's beyond my comprehension but whatever. I look at it this way, he wants to become a woman:

1. It's legal to do so
2. The option is readily available.
3. He's spending his own money, not mine or the other taxpayers
4. He thinks it will make him happy

So. What's the problem? I wish him well and hope this will make him happy. Sadly, based on some of the things I've read over the years it probably will not.

 

Hear hear. I don't agree with you often, but when I do it's because you're making boatloads of sense.

 

My personal opinion is that I would like to see more research done. Some recent findings that I read a while ago (sadly, I could not find the studies again, I hope someone else can find the source) suggested that known gender dysphoria sufferers suicide rates go up after transition. This would seem to suggest that even the transition to being another gender physically does not solve the disconnect and may be futile.

 

Of course, a fundamental flaw of these studies is that it doesn't take into account how many people may be suffering from gender dysphoria but hide it or are not getting help (and I completely understand why they would not, considering popular culture generally treats transgendered people as either punchlines or serial killers).

 

What I do find concerning is that the communities who are supposedly inclusive for transgendered people seem to shun transgenders who come out and admit that they regret transitioning. That doesn't seem like any kind of inclusivity to me. They also like to ruin the reputations of doctors who talk about such cases simply because they give transgenders negative publicity, despite only stating facts.

 

The fact of the matter is that currently, there are no better therapeutic options for people who suffer from gender dysphoria. Until a different or a better solution is found, transitioning is the closest thing we have to giving people who suffer from gender dysphoria treatment.

 

 

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female?

 

Some of them do.

 

They're generally not considered to be nice people.

 

I do feel that this article is somewhat disingenuous as this form of transphobia is more widespread in the feminist movement as this "rational wiki" article implies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn-born_womyn

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_exclusion_of_transgender_and_transsexual_people

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

My personal opinion is that I would like to see more research done. Some recent findings that I read a while ago (sadly, I could not find the studies again, I hope someone else can find the source) suggested that known gender dysphoria sufferers suicide rates go up after transition. This would seem to suggest that even the transition to being another gender physically does not solve the disconnect and may be futile.

 

 

 

Not really, because the study in question doesn't cite the reason for the suicides, only the fact that they happened. As far as we know, they could've committed suicide because society as a whole is immensely hostile to trans people. Or because gender reassignment surgery is only seen as a last resort by doctors, therefore the subset of people who undergo the procedure experience the problem far more strongly than those who do not. It's incredibly irresponsible to jump to conclusions at this point.

 

 

 

 

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female?

 

Some of them do.

 

They're generally not considered to be nice people.

 

I do feel that this article is somewhat disingenuous as this form of transphobia is more widespread in the feminist movement as this "rational wiki" article implies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_exclusion_of_transgender_and_transsexual_people

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's a grand total of 4 examples. Not exactly "widespread".

Edited April 26, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Hurlshort]

 

 

I do feel a little uneasy about gender reassignment surgery in children though. If my child wanted one, I'd be pretty concerned about the possibility that maybe it's just a phase or something, and that they'd then have to live with the irreparable damage caused by the surgery for the rest of their lives. So I'd probably force them to wait 'til their adults. (Or maybe at least 16 or so, if they make a convincing case for needing it.)

 

 

The trouble with waiting is puberty is extremely traumatic for a person who is struggling with gender identity.  

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

I do feel a little uneasy about gender reassignment surgery in children though. If my child wanted one, I'd be pretty concerned about the possibility that maybe it's just a phase or something, and that they'd then have to live with the irreparable damage caused by the surgery for the rest of their lives. So I'd probably force them to wait 'til their adults. (Or maybe at least 16 or so, if they make a convincing case for needing it.)

 

 

The trouble with waiting is puberty is extremely traumatic for a person who is struggling with gender identity.  

 

 

It's not an or/or scenario, though. Apparently you can wait with surgery and still avoid at least some of the trauma by delaying puberty with hormone treatment.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/09/16/3567886/transgender-puberty-suppression-study/

 

(No, this isn't something I knew beforehand, I just looked it up myself because it is an interesting conundrum.)

[Namutree]

I didn't watch the interview because I really don't care. But from what I gather Jenner has been a very unhappy guy for most of his life. It's something I can't really sympathize with because it's beyond my comprehension but whatever. I look at it this way, he wants to become a woman:

 

1. It's legal to do so
2. The option is readily available.
3. He's spending his own money, not mine or the other taxpayers
4. He thinks it will make him happy

So. What's the problem? I wish him well and hope this will make him happy. Sadly, based on some of the things I've read over the years it probably will not.

This. Just let them do what they want, they aren't hurting anyone.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

My personal opinion is that I would like to see more research done. Some recent findings that I read a while ago (sadly, I could not find the studies again, I hope someone else can find the source) suggested that known gender dysphoria sufferers suicide rates go up after transition. This would seem to suggest that even the transition to being another gender physically does not solve the disconnect and may be futile.

 

 

 

Not really, because the study in question doesn't cite the reason for the suicides, only the fact that they happened. As far as we know, they could've committed suicide because society as a whole is immensely hostile to trans people. Or because gender reassignment surgery is only seen as a last resort by doctors, therefore the subset of people who undergo the procedure experience the problem far more strongly than those who do not. It's incredibly irresponsible to jump to conclusions at this point.

 

 

 

 

I wonder if women would be uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender female?

 

Some of them do.

 

They're generally not considered to be nice people.

 

I do feel that this article is somewhat disingenuous as this form of transphobia is more widespread in the feminist movement as this "rational wiki" article implies.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_exclusion_of_transgender_and_transsexual_people

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's a grand total of 4 examples. Not exactly "widespread".

 

 

 

There's more examples, I just couldn't find a master list. I also didn't claim it was "widespread", per se, rather than just more widespread than that article implies - it is widespread enough, however, for feminist publications to recognize it as a longterm failing of the movement. Regardless of that, there are still countless books and manifestos on the subject, including the infamous "The Transsexual Empire" that considers transgenderism to be a patriarchy tool to reinforce social gender constructs (needless to say, pro-trans organisations, feminist or otherwise, classify it as hate speech). However, that book was inspired by words of feminist figurehead Gloria Steinem that many feminists still use as justification for transphobia. From Gloria Steinem's Wiki Page referencing her work Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions:

 

 

 

She claimed that, in many cases, transsexuals "surgically mutilate their own bodies" in order to conform to a gender role that is inexorably tied to physical body parts.^{[20]:206–210} She concluded that "feminists are right to feel uncomfortable about the need for and uses of transsexualism."^{[20]:206–210} The article concluded with what became one of Steinem's most famous quotes: "If the shoe doesn't fit, must we change the foot?"^{[20]:206–210}

 

Of course, it should be noted that Steinem has publically apologized and reconsidered her stance, but I still see it quoted from time to time even in mainstream feminist discussions.

 

That Rational Wiki article portends that TERFs are persona non grata by default in the feminist community but that is simply not true - it's true that feminism on a whole is more accepting of male to female transgenders than society is, yet some significant feminist circles are much more intolerant of transgenderism. And let's note that I specified male to female, because female to male transgenderism very often goes entirely unacknowledged by feminist circles other than the occassional insane radfem calling them "gender traitors". Female to male transgenders just seem to get "othered" by feminism.

 

EDIT: Regarding your statement about my conclusion, yes, that was indeed a bit of jump on my part. Not one that I took a lot of time to think through. Your debunking of it supports my initial argument of "we need more research" though.

Edited April 26, 2015 by TrueNeutral
The quoting system went to hell again. Also, I made way more spelling errors here than I usually do. D:

[Malcador]

Well why shouldn't they be seen as others. They're no longer women so aren't relevant to feminism.

[Fighter]

...So?

 

So if gender is social no one should care about the biological reality. But people do very strongly seek to align one with the other in this case.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

...So?

 

So if gender is social no one should care about the biological reality. But people do very strongly seek to align one with the other in this case.

 

 

Well it's a tad more complex than that.

[Blarghagh]

 

...So?

 

So if gender is social no one should care about the biological reality. But people do very strongly seek to align one with the other in this case.

 

 

Gloria Steinem, is that you?

[Fighter]

Gloria Steinem, is that you?

 

I don't know who that is.

[Blarghagh]

[Orogun01]

 

Gloria Steinem, is that you?

 

I don't know who that is.

 

The stepmother of Christian Bale.

[Meshugger]

I am now utterly confused.

[Darth InSidious]

Query: if a man were born without hands, and wanted hands is that body dismorphia?

 

And would he still be a man?

 

I'm sure there's a pile of rotten planks around here somewhere...

[Hurlshort]

 

Gloria Steinem, is that you?

 

I don't know who that is.

 

 

[Malcador]

Outside of the US is she really well known ?

 

It's not like not knowing who Salk is, after all

[Fighter]

 

Ok... Since this seems to be a thing I googled her.

 

Here is something that may shock you. There is a world beyond America and some of us were born there. Where your political activists don't really matter to anyone.

[Blarghagh]

She's the closest thing the second wave of feminism had to a leader and is still highly influential. No offense, but we've had conversations on feminism in other threads, so it seems like you would have some fairly basic knowledge about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also: