I love guns in Pillars of Eternity...

[ShadowStorm]

I absolutely adore them. However, my gripe is actually this: On higher difficulty levels, despite some swapping tactics, they are plain time thieves. You don't get your bang for the buck, methinks.

Lastly, that pistol dual-wielding pirate Sensuki proposed, I'd still love to see that in PoE, where the mechanics allow for it. It would be fab.

Like so many of sensuki's ideas, it's dumb. There is no dual wielding pistols of that kind any more than there is dual wielding of two-handed battle-axes or dual-wielding polearms. 

 

Dual wielding helmets. Like so much that comes from that whiner, it's infantile trash.

[Captain Shrek]

>Guns can pierce arcane veil

 

Lol. This was probably the least important reason to use guns. 

[Dadalama]

 

Guns rocked.  Need to make pistols one-handed so that you can dual wield pistol and cutlass (and add in cutlasses as well) and then add in ships... yeah okay I'm really Guybrush in disguise...

 

 

 

I would say that they should make it so that you can wield pistol and one handed weapon in same weapon slot pair, but make it so that reloading pistol needs both hands and you get single weapon accuracy bonus with one handed weapon. Because it would give something special for pistols over arquebuses, as you can save half of weapon slot so to speak by deciding to use one instead of arquebus, but losing some damage potential. Although allowing such thing would need some changes in mechanics so that you can determine which weapon in the pair you want to use. Letting you attack with both one handed weapon and pistol same time so that you can also reload pistol same time would make pistol maybe too good, although that could be solved with giving accuracy minuses such pairing, but that probably would make it become unattractive choice at the end.

 

Basically pistols could be a single opening shot for melee bruisers. And fittingly, that would make for great rogue's. An opening eyestrike with a pistol and move in close with a saber to get in a sneak attack. With a high enough might that'd probably finish off many mobs. 

[Jean-Luc]

Guns. <3 Sounds effects are awesome too.

 

>Guns can pierce arcane veil

 

Lol. This was probably the least important reason to use guns. 

 

Funny how pointless this turned out to be. 

[b0rsuk]

 

I absolutely adore them. However, my gripe is actually this: On higher difficulty levels, despite some swapping tactics, they are plain time thieves. You don't get your bang for the buck, methinks.

Lastly, that pistol dual-wielding pirate Sensuki proposed, I'd still love to see that in PoE, where the mechanics allow for it. It would be fab.

Like so many of sensuki's ideas, it's dumb. There is no dual wielding pistols of that kind any more than there is dual wielding of two-handed battle-axes or dual-wielding polearms. 

 

Dual wielding helmets. Like so much that comes from that whiner, it's infantile trash.

 

 

You can dual wield torches. Weapon Focus: Club. Damage like normal club, no accuracy bonus, 10% fire lash without enchanting. Some day I'm going to make a rogue dual wielding frost-enchanted torches.

[ShadowStorm]

 

 

I absolutely adore them. However, my gripe is actually this: On higher difficulty levels, despite some swapping tactics, they are plain time thieves. You don't get your bang for the buck, methinks.

Lastly, that pistol dual-wielding pirate Sensuki proposed, I'd still love to see that in PoE, where the mechanics allow for it. It would be fab.

Like so many of sensuki's ideas, it's dumb. There is no dual wielding pistols of that kind any more than there is dual wielding of two-handed battle-axes or dual-wielding polearms. 

 

Dual wielding helmets. Like so much that comes from that whiner, it's infantile trash.

 

 

You can dual wield torches. Weapon Focus: Club. Damage like normal club, no accuracy bonus, 10% fire lash without enchanting. Some day I'm going to make a rogue dual wielding frost-enchanted torches.

 

 

Yep, there's a lot of items one can dual wield. Not everything, but a lot. 

 

Dual wield shields. Not possible, but makes more sense than dual wielding guns in this game (or bows for that matter, why can't I dual wield my warbows /whiiiiiine)

 

(sigh)

Edited April 28, 2015 by ShadowStorm

[Elerond]

Guns. <3 Sounds effects are awesome too.

 

>Guns can pierce arcane veil

 

Lol. This was probably the least important reason to use guns. 

 

Funny how pointless this turned out to be. 

 

But mostly because enemy wizard that are some what rare don't use arcane veil and only very few enemies have fire arms especially in beginning of game where player might even use arcane veil instead of better means of protection (although even that is bit optimistic as player probably choose some other talent for their wizards, because arcane veil isn't usually necessary in roles where players use their wizards).

Edited April 28, 2015 by Elerond

[NightRevan]

I am aware that firearms began to appear in the late 14th century (1360's) which to be fair does date firearms to around the time of the completed forms of full articulated plate, and a form of cannon were around for a while

. But I wasn't aware that effective firearms were developed or deployed in a major scale till at least the end of that century and beyond, and had the impression that kind of weapons roughly depicted in the game, pistols, blunderbusses etc were later.

 

However detailed medieval and weapon history was not a focus of mine (I was more interested and read more ancient history when I was younger, and more in the various society, politics and philosophy of the Middle Ages). So you are probably correct, and it isn't so much the fully developed full plate but the transition period from Crecy to earlier, which is where (if anywhere I would technological site most high fantasy settings, through it also includes popular ideas of earlier periods as well and can accept full plate and few other things as okay anachronisms since they still feel as if they belong even when they don't fully as subjective as statement as that is).

 

Perhaps it is just a hangover from more popular perception and I know RPGs have had the full combination of things from different times (warriors in full steel using shields, as you day the existence of rapiers which I've always disliked but was easily avoided or pretend they aren't there, and never as obviously present to me as firearms here).

 

Still for me it still feels and odd mix, as though there should be more affect of the type of guns being that prevalent, that it remains an thing that disrupts immersion for me.

 

Will have to see if I can continue and thankyou for the advice Khalid the bear I will see if something can be found on Nexus. Perhaps there will be, or I'll see if I can get over it. Otherwise I leave it, as I have been getting into the Spiderweb game Avadon 2 and will do that instead.

 

And feel free to go into more details FlintlockJazz, maybe it will help and in any case it should be interesting to learn .

[redneckdevil]

I'm digging the setting where there is magic but technology is growing along side it. Magic arm is still better but will see equal footing if automatic or advanced gun get created. Magic isn't top king that has no way of being toppled, and then the idea of magic evolving to catch up with technology advancing.

I love my Tolkien settings and I love my scifi and advance settings. Tbh the way they are mixing it and what could become in the future for both sides has me enjoying and curious.

[Zenicetus]

Everything seems the high fantasy medievalish theme except there are guns there which seem to effect nothing and haven't caused any change. 

 

But guns aren't the only feature that differs from a "pure fantasy" setting. In many places throughout the game, you'll see different versions of electrical apparatus with cables snaking across the floor, sparks flying etc. It wouldn't look out of place in Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory. One could make the same argument; that this represents a level of technology that should have made a greater impact on the world than we actually see in the game. 

 

For me, it's all that Engwithian and Animancy hardware that makes it easier to accept guns in the setting. It isn't pure, high fantasy where guns are the only anachronistic feature. 

 

Also, unlike the electro-mechanical stuff, they're not featured elements of the main plot or any of the side quests. There are few mobs that actually use them in the game. So it's easy enough to just avoid using them if it breaks immersion too much. Personally, I think "immersion" means buying into the game world as presented, and not wishing it were something different. As long as guns exist in this world, I'm enjoying using them.

[Monte Carlo]

I am aware that firearms began to appear in the late 14th century (1360's) which to be fair does date firearms to around the time of the completed forms of full articulated plate, and a form of cannon were around for a while

. But I wasn't aware that effective firearms were developed or deployed in a major scale till at least the end of that century and beyond, and had the impression that kind of weapons roughly depicted in the game, pistols, blunderbusses etc were later.

 

However detailed medieval and weapon history was not a focus of mine (I was more interested and read more ancient history when I was younger, and more in the various society, politics and philosophy of the Middle Ages). So you are probably correct, and it isn't so much the fully developed full plate but the transition period from Crecy to earlier, which is where (if anywhere I would technological site most high fantasy settings, through it also includes popular ideas of earlier periods as well and can accept full plate and few other things as okay anachronisms since they still feel as if they belong even when they don't fully as subjective as statement as that is).

 

Perhaps it is just a hangover from more popular perception and I know RPGs have had the full combination of things from different times (warriors in full steel using shields, as you day the existence of rapiers which I've always disliked but was easily avoided or pretend they aren't there, and never as obviously present to me as firearms here).

 

Still for me it still feels and odd mix, as though there should be more affect of the type of guns being that prevalent, that it remains an thing that disrupts immersion for me.

 

Will have to see if I can continue and thankyou for the advice Khalid the bear I will see if something can be found on Nexus. Perhaps there will be, or I'll see if I can get over it. Otherwise I leave it, as I have been getting into the Spiderweb game Avadon 2 and will do that instead.

 

And feel free to go into more details FlintlockJazz, maybe it will help and in any case it should be interesting to learn .

 

Hmmm. Where to start? If you want to use real-world analogues, think of it like this: the Conquistadors arrived in the New World with firearms, high quality metal armour, beautifully-smithed bladed weapons and trained cavalry.

 

Force multiplier versus a culture with no metallurgy or history of equestrianism, eh? The Spanish kicked serious arse.

 

Weapons technology moved relatively slowly in the high medieval era and was not culturally uniform (guns co-existed happily with heavy armour, swords and stuff for a couple hundred years). In fact, the crossbow (in it's time) was more of a gamechanger, leading to Papal edicts trying to ban it's use (a peasant can kill a knight? Wut?). Genoese pavise crossbowmen were the panzergrenadier of the high medieval era.

 

Edit - this is a poor comparison, PzGrens being highly mobile, full-spectrum infantry. But you get my drift, they were pretty badass.

 

Firearms, OTOH, took many years to reach the point where traditional high-medieval tactics changed demonstrably (for the record, and to be extremely basic, this is the rock-paper-scissors of pike / cavalry / missiles jockeying for advantage before a massive ruckus with footmen). Look at English Civil War art, for example, by which time the only real change was the move towards more lightly armoured infantry and cavalry and the emphasis on mobility (look at the half-plate armour of the period). We still had melee weapons, pikes and so on. Just the bow and crossbow fell out of favour as the mass-ranked firearms volley took its place (the archer would have been more effective, but to train a man to use a wheel-lock took less time than the ten years to become a longbowman).

 

Most vanilla high-fantasy is set in an ancient or Dark Ages type milieu. The Hobbit, Conan, Fahrd and the Grey Mouser etc. This is the cultural bouillabaisse from which our idea of what constitutes classic 'fantasy' comes. This is the (bogus) fourth wall getting shot down (ha! see whatIdidthere?).

 

TL;DR

 

The implementation of firearms in this type of game is entirely consistent with the analogous setting. It is easy to imagine an uneven spread of firearms technology and responses to it (the Maxim gun was used on many a spear-wielding culture during the Scramble for Africa). Your issue, the fourth wall, is a personal thing for you, based on how you perceive the role of technology in fantastic fiction and settings.

 

That's cool, but IMO it's your issue rather than PoEs.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Monte Carlo

[bleakcabaler]

Yes, the firearms feats are underwhelming I agree. There should also be a musketeer class that specialises in guns.

 

How is a Warrior in light/cloth armor, rapier, single handed style and arquebus not a musketeer? 

Edited April 28, 2015 by bleakcabaler

[Rumpelstilskin]

But guns aren't the only feature that differs from a "pure fantasy" setting. In many places throughout the game, you'll see different versions of electrical apparatus with cables snaking across the floor, sparks flying etc. It wouldn't look out of place in Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory. One could make the same argument; that this represents a level of technology that should have made a greater impact on the world than we actually see in the game. 

 

For me, it's all that Engwithian and Animancy hardware that makes it easier to accept guns in the setting. It isn't pure, high fantasy where guns are the only anachronistic feature. 

I think not only it's "not a pure fantasy", it's probably less "fantasy" than the real world. To me, "fantasy" implies a certain fairy-tale feel, some mystery and magic - and I don't mean just throwing fireballs by that. While in PoE even souls and

gods

are explained in a completely mechanistic and rationalized way, and it's made clear that it's all there is to it. Even Game of Thrones is more fantasy than that.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Rumpelstilskin

[Monte Carlo]

^ It seems quite obvious from early on in the game that the precursor Engwitihan culture is highly technologically advanced. The modern-day Eorans are trying to get their heads around what went before.

 

The whole setting is a chaotic mix of guns, magic and ancient (high) technology along with the whole souls / divinity thing. I think that's all rather splendid, but ofc YMMV.

[Monte Carlo]

 

Yes, the firearms feats are underwhelming I agree. There should also be a musketeer class that specialises in guns.

 

How is a Warrior in light/cloth armor, rapier, single handed style and musket not a musketeer? 

 

 

Given the way PoEs tanking / engagement mechanics work, in my minds eye a musketeer class would be more of a damage-dealer in the rogue mould.

[Rumpelstilskin]

^ It seems quite obvious from early on in the game that the precursor Engwitihan culture is highly technologically advanced. The modern-day Eorans are trying to get their heads around what went before.

 

The whole setting is a chaotic mix of guns, magic and ancient (high) technology along with the whole souls / divinity thing. I think that's all rather splendid, but ofc YMMV.

It's not quite Numenera-style though. With all their scientific prowess, the Engwithians seem to have been surprisingly unimpressive with their weapons tech, since all Engwithian weapons you find in the game are utter schlock.

[Khalid the bear]

It's not quite Numenera-style though. With all their scientific prowess, the Engwithians seem to have been surprisingly unimpressive with their weapons tech, since all Engwithian weapons you find in the game are utter schlock.

 

well 99% of Engwithian weapons you find in the game are from their Automatons. No civilisation is going to arm theri golems/robots/automatons with anything than mass produced basic weapons

(only one real Engwithian weeapon/relic comes to mind, and that is a bit underwhelming)

[Elerond]

Engwithians were extremely advanced in animancy and other soul related technologies, but their knowledge with metallurgy is far behind of those modern cultures of Eora. At least that is what Josh said about subject.

[NightRevan]

 

Hmmm. Where to start? If you want to use real-world analogues, think of it like this: the Conquistadors arrived in the New World with firearms, high quality metal armour, beautifully-smithed bladed weapons and trained cavalry.

 

Force multiplier versus a culture with no metallurgy or history of equestrianism, eh? The Spanish kicked serious arse.

 

Weapons technology moved relatively slowly in the high medieval era and was not culturally uniform (guns co-existed happily with heavy armour, swords and stuff for a couple hundred years). In fact, the crossbow (in it's time) was more of a gamechanger, leading to Papal edicts trying to ban it's use (a peasant can kill a knight? Wut?). Genoese pavise crossbowmen were the panzergrenadier of the high medieval era.

 

Edit - this is a poor comparison, PzGrens being highly mobile, full-spectrum infantry. But you get my drift, they were pretty badass.

 

Firearms, OTOH, took many years to reach the point where traditional high-medieval tactics changed demonstrably (for the record, and to be extremely basic, this is the rock-paper-scissors of pike / cavalry / missiles jockeying for advantage before a massive ruckus with footmen). Look at English Civil War art, for example, by which time the only real change was the move towards more lightly armoured infantry and cavalry and the emphasis on mobility (look at the half-plate armour of the period). We still had melee weapons, pikes and so on. Just the bow and crossbow fell out of favour as the mass-ranked firearms volley took its place (the archer would have been more effective, but to train a man to use a wheel-lock took less time than the ten years to become a longbowman).

 

Most vanilla high-fantasy is set in an ancient or Dark Ages type milieu. The Hobbit, Conan, Fahrd and the Grey Mouser etc. This is the cultural bouillabaisse from which our idea of what constitutes classic 'fantasy' comes. This is the (bogus) fourth wall getting shot down (ha! see whatIdidthere?).

 

TL;DR

 

The implementation of firearms in this type of game is entirely consistent with the analogous setting. It is easy to imagine an uneven spread of firearms technology and responses to it (the Maxim gun was used on many a spear-wielding culture during the Scramble for Africa). Your issue, the fourth wall, is a personal thing for you, based on how you perceive the role of technology in fantastic fiction and settings.

 

That's cool, but IMO it's your issue rather than PoEs.

 

 

Well I want to first say that that I agree it very much is my issue, which I hope I made clear in the first post, as I acknowledged clearly this is a issue not many others were having with the game (and I just saw this thread a place I might ask for ideas etc for getting around it.  It is entirely subjective to me and the wider content was just to illustrate why, to me, I find the firearms alongside the existing arms and armour without seeming to affect it (again in my subjective experience) was making it an implicit fourth wall breaker.  If I didn't make that as clear as I should I apologize, and so this isn't really criticism of the game or siting this issue as a problem which breaks immersion as a general issue, since just looking at this thread and others, that clearly isn't the case.  It's an issue mostly particularly to me, but I was hoping to gain some pointers for ideas ahead, which have gained a few, for which I'm grateful, as I would like to get immersed into the world.

 

 

So it is indeed my issue, but on I was just looking for ideas around, and if it sounded like a blanket criticism it wasn't intended that way but rather an explanation of way I found it a problem as a route to inquiring to ways through, around and bypassing it altogether.  If not *shrug* it's a shame but perhaps I will be able to enjoy more another time.

 

I also acknowledge that many classic high fantasy settings actually take place in a kind of mythic early medieval/classical/early civilization mix that I quite like but most games tend to reproduce with elements for a popular idea of later Middle Ages, (though from what I remember of the Conan short stories there tended to be all sorts going on there depending which land or kingdom the indomitable Cimmerian was in, whether ancient Eastern civilisations like Zamora or a more or less popular idea of high medieval Europe in Aquilonia) but I don't mind so much which I also concede is probably entirely hypocritical but just maintains enough of the 'feel' of it I don't mind.  Completely subjective, but than this all is, I guess the flavour matters as much as the substance, though that said I would love to see more set in a more early medieval or late Romanesque period that was consistent would be interesting to me.

 

The mention of the Conquistadors/Tudor look is interesting enough exactly the kind of look I was looking for with the presence of such firearms (and to see castles designed with cannon in mind, for example such as those built by Henry VIII later in his reign which were quite different and built with resisting cannon fire in mind) which extents a little to the Civil War (English I mean, I live in the UK so it's just the Civil war here ) though that's a little later.  But something akin to that look would have cool for me (though there some armour that fits such as the breastplate armour and padded armour which could fit with such a look and feel).

 

I do see the point of seeing a more wilder mix of a period going on, though at the moment it just feels to me like the guns in question seem more widespread and advanced for that, but again as some have pointed out the 14th century onwards was increasingly complicated in this regard.  Perhaps it would help to try and enter into in that manner, and the Engwithian angle is interesting, at the moment I'm not sure if it will help, if not I will see if I just do what I've always done with the aforementioned rapiers in pervious games and just ignore their existence and avoid obvious instances of them (as I did just getting rid of Kana's gun and giving him a crossbow instead).

 

Anyway, thank you and to others for you time and posts, I have appreciated them, and I'll stop diverting the thread with my own immersion issues and let you all get back to your prior discussion .

[Jasta11]

Engwithians were extremely advanced in animancy and other soul related technologies, but their knowledge with metallurgy is far behind of those modern cultures of Eora. At least that is what Josh said about subject.

 

Thankfully, because looking at stuff like the Colossus in Od Nua and the souls-stealing machines, if the Engwithans were as advanced in metallurgy as in soul manipulation they would probably have been packing 10 story tall mechas and railguns.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Jasta11