RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Gromnir]

But how many people know that dumping constitution on your main character will close some stuff in game from you? Not anything important but maybe somewhat nice stuff depending on which kind character you are playing.

the attributes is just not near as important to combat efficacy as folks believe.  in spite o' his tank-terrible attributes, eder can tank quite successful in potd.  we mentioned our non-optimal priest and rogue, and our paladin is built along almost the same lines as we prefer the dialogue options such attributes afford us:  s 10, c 9, d 10, p 14, int 19, r 16.  starting attributes for a paladin, which we is told is a sucky class and which we is using more as support than tank.  reduce con to an extreme low is gonna result in having to win fights very fast and to protect such characters.  we can win such fights without resorting to such tactics and we got characters who can actual pick and choose from the role-play dialogue options we find more intriguing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

But... if your point is that you a certain optimal playstyle makes con an insignificant stat for your backline, then I would probably agree with this. But in my book, that makes calling con a dump stat for thieves a bit of a stretch. It's rather a dump stat for a particular play-style. But that's not what is usually meant by a dumpstat.

 

 

^ Yeah, this.

[Stun]

I wonder how his optimal build did Temple of Eothas...

What's so special about the temple of Eothas?

 

Rogues are squishy. That is an unavoidable weakness baked into their class design from the start. They belong to one of the lowest health pool tiers. Pumping their Con to 18 will NOT CHANGE THIS (unlike, say, in IWD2, where a Wizard with 18 Con will actually have more health than a Fighter with 3 con) If you find your rogue frequently dying, it is NOT because you didn't put more points into con, it's because either you used sh*tty combat tactics, or you're under-leveled, or you're inexperienced and are trying to play your rogue like he was a fighter.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Prime-Mover]

 

What's so special with the temple of Eothas?

 

Rogues are squishy. That weakness is baked into their class from the start. They belong to the lowest health pool tier. Pumping their Con to 18 will NOT CHANGE THIS (unlike, say, in IWD2, where a Wizard with 18 Con will actually have more health than a Fighter with 3 con) If you find your rogue frequently dying, it is NOT because you didn't put more points into con, it's because either you used sh*tty combat tactics, or you're under-leveled, or you're inexperienced and are trying to play your rogue like he was a fighter.

 

I get the (perhaps wrong) impression that the thief in your book is simply ranged or bust. But jumping in and out of engagements with your rogue, and nailing anyting with a relevant penalty is a viable tactic, and survivability if affected in partial by your con score. So having an average con, and some appropriate DR gear is a viable strategy, vs. having three con, and DR maxed out gear. Perhaps not enough in your book?

 

Or is your claim that con is basically irrelevant for any viable tactic?

[Anaeme]

When you create your rogue, dump his CON and play PoE on hard with no protective clothing. You can start with your self important schitk about ****ty tactics and inexperience.

 

Until then quit lecturing people

[Stun]

I get the (perhaps wrong) impression that the thief in your book is simply ranged or bust.

Oh no, no no. Nothing out DPS's a melee rogue. They're the best strikers in the game. But they die when they're forced into prolonged melee engagement without adequate party assistance. And maxing out their Con will not change this. If you want to say that maxing out their con will at least help a little, I won't argue. But at that point we're not talking about Fundamental Viability alterations, or whatever. We're simply quibbling over basic mathematics, or "fine tuning". Because the classes are already designed to be totally viable even if ALL stats are dumped to 3. Even Gromnir will tell you that the Attribute system in PoE was not designed to make or break builds. Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Stun]

When you create your rogue, dump his CON and play PoE on hard with no protective clothing. You can start with your self important schitk about ****ty tactics and inexperience.

 

Until then quit lecturing people

You act as if it hasn't been done.

 

Excuse me, you act as if that's not a friggin optimal way to play a rogue and well within the spirit of the game, according to Josh Sawyer.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

is at least arguable that constitution is worthy o' significant investment on a retaliation rogue.

 

*shrug*

 

not everybody needs do things the same way in poe, which is actual much different than the ie games and so many other crpgs.  the starting attributes is not make-or-break.  is there optimum builds for a melee rogue depending on particular play-style? sure.  so what?  the attribute mechanics makes a larger range o' options viable.  most o' rogue's enormous damage output is not coming from might, so boost perception or con or whatever instead o' might ain't gonna spell doom for your character.  yeah, you build non-optimal or non-ordinary and you gotta be much more careful about ability and talent choices if you wanna be efficacious in combat, but that ain't a bad thing neither. the ability to play a vast variety o' builds effectively is precisely why the poe attribute mechanics exist in its current form.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as we said elsewhere, we believe that the attributes mechanics would still benefit from balancing, but refusing to recognize what the mechanic does and is designed to do is amusing to us.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Gromnir

[Ineth]

When you create your rogue, dump his CON and play PoE on hard with no protective clothing.

 

I did it with an 8 CON melee rogue, and it worked out fine on Hard difficulty.

 

Hired her in chapter 2, and at first experimented with some light armor, but then settled on plain clothing for max attack speed and played that way for the rest of the game.

 

In retrospect, I'm pretty sure I could have dumped CON further and it would have still worked.

 

I don't remember her ever being one-shotted by anything, except by the Adra dragon breath which knocked out all my characters except Eder on my first attempt.

[Ohioastro]

Charisma in the classic games is a true dump stat.  As long as one member of the party has it - and a couple of classes use it - everyone else can set it to three with absolutely zero consequences.  Calling any stat in PoE a dump stat is an abuse of language and an indication of someone who doesn't understand what it means.  It doesn't mean "I can carefully arrange my party members so that the fact that I made a character weak and vulnerable can be mitigated".  It doesn't mean "gee, I didn't notice all of the saving throws that I missed, or the opponents that I made harder".  It means that it had NO IMPACT ON YOUR CHARACTER, which is &*() objectively untrue for PoE stats.  While, say, charisma had zero impact in the games that the same people scrape and bow to.

 

Anyone arguing to the contrary is playing word games.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

That's cool. And if you didn't experience any significant trade-off where this decision affected your tactical disposition or gear selection, then you probably have a good point. In my case however, dumping con forces me to play with a much more static and inflexible ranged-only backline. I would e.g. never dream of going in stabbing if I new that the likelyhood of being KO'ed would be twice as high. And that's a significant tradeoff in my book.

 

But... if your point is that you a certain optimal playstyle makes con an insignificant stat for your backline, then I would probably agree with this. But in my book, that makes calling con a dump stat for thieves a bit of a stretch. It's rather a dump stat for a particular play-style. But that's not what is usually meant by a dumpstat.

 

 

Not at all. I was able to take on all the enemies except for the bears at Valewood with a melee rogue. And I've been able to have my rogue go into melee numerous times. L2P.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I wonder how his optimal build did Temple of Eothas...

 

Very easy on hard. But then I do have over 100 hours in the beta working out optimal builds. So I probably have an advantage over other people who don't have experience with the game.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[constantine]

 

sure it can be criticized. complete fail to observe that the feature works as intended and the reasoning behind the feature, particularly when the value o' the future as intended is a known quantity that were debated into insensibility is disingenuous at best.

First, it is not a reviewer's job to painstakingly observe and report whether or not a feature is working as the developers intended.

 

Second, a criticism of a crap mechanic does not need to take developer reasoning in mind. For example, When Bioware decided to implement parachuting mob waves in DA2, we didn't NEED to discover the reasoning behind such crap design before concluding that it was a f*cking Crap design.

 

Third, as anyone who took part in PoE's 6-month-long public Beta process will tell you, the Attribute system has gone though countless iterations (even some totally fundamental changes). In their first incarnation, the attributes flat out didn't carry any penalties at all (Dumping Might to 3 resulted in a +3% damage BONUS. And that was the intention). Another version of the Beta saw Accuracy tied to perception. etc. So citing developer intentions here is kinda pointless anyway. They've been constantly changing their intentions.

They've been changing their intentions based on backer's feedback, trying to reach that gold point.

 

Truth is, PoE's attributes is among its greatest achievements: no godly attribute for any class, so you are free to explore the many build possibilities- dmg builds, fast-attacking, interrupt builds, duration builds, tanky ones.

 

This is reinforced by the fact that attributes have less impact, so you are encouraged to try combinations without losing much. In the same time the player who enjoys min-maxing will get sth out of it.

 

The best of both worlds. It has come to be almost suspicious that you PoE haters fail to see all that- you continue to argue just for the sake of it.

 

Is it about engagement maybe? You'll never get over it, will you.

[Cronstintein]

Didn't read the whole thread (44 pages!) but I thought the review was acutely accurate.  It brings up all the major problems  I had with the game and discusses them eloquently.  We aren't exactly spoiled for choice these days in the RTWP tactical rpg department so I don't fully regret my purchase, but this game is definitely not the pinacle of the genre. 

 

It did, however, get me to put another 100 hours into BG2 so thanks for that I guess.

[Failion]

This game throws incredible amount of trash fights at you. You'll only feel the hurt in lack of con in boss type encounters but these encounters can be cheesed through because there are no immunities in the game. Class with high hp growth benefit from con everyone else can ignore it but I wouldn't dump it but then again you can because its so easy to cc in this game. Lot more fun and satisfying victory having a tank class trade blows with a dragon boss then having wizard cheese it by paralyze and instant gibing the dragon 5 seconds later.

 

[Stun]

 

I wonder how his optimal build did Temple of Eothas...

Very easy on hard. But then I do have over 100 hours in the beta working out optimal builds. So I probably have an advantage over other people who don't have experience with the game.

 

Yeah, there's nothing unusually difficult about the temple of Eothas. It seems designed for a first time player with a level 2 party of about three characters.

 

On the other hand, Bullrushing the front door of Raedric's hold (which can also be done with a party of three level 2 characters,) IS that unusual challenge we're looking for. But that is probably why Obsidian designed Raedric's Hold with not one but *two* peaceful ways through it.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Cronstintein]

Truth is, PoE's attributes is among its greatest achievements: no godly attribute for any class, so you are free to explore the many build possibilities- dmg builds, fast-attacking, interrupt builds, duration builds, tanky ones.

 

This is reinforced by the fact that attributes have less impact, so you are encouraged to try combinations without losing much. In the same time the player who enjoys min-maxing will get sth out of it.
 

=============

 

 

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point.  A wizard with anything other than maxed might/int is quite clearly sub-optimal in a way that does the opposite of what you suggest.  Gimmick builds are possible but not really interesting in a way that a system like this should be.  In an ideal world you would have several different builds that would be at least reasonably comparable in usefullness.  That is not the case here.  You could make a high-deflection wizard, but there is seriously no point.  The talents don't lend themselves to building that way and you basically gimp the one thing wizards have going for them: AOE.

 

Honestly non-prime attributes are so useless that I almost wish attributes had been removed entirely and we moved into a completely talent-based system (with more talent points overall) and gotten some build diversity that way.

 

[Prime-Mover]

 

That's cool. And if you didn't experience any significant trade-off where this decision affected your tactical disposition or gear selection, then you probably have a good point. In my case however, dumping con forces me to play with a much more static and inflexible ranged-only backline. I would e.g. never dream of going in stabbing if I new that the likelyhood of being KO'ed would be twice as high. And that's a significant tradeoff in my book.

 

But... if your point is that you a certain optimal playstyle makes con an insignificant stat for your backline, then I would probably agree with this. But in my book, that makes calling con a dump stat for thieves a bit of a stretch. It's rather a dump stat for a particular play-style. But that's not what is usually meant by a dumpstat.

 

 

Not at all. I was able to take on all the enemies except for the bears at Valewood with a melee rogue. And I've been able to have my rogue go into melee numerous times. L2P.

 

Well GFY (variable interpretation contingent on whether L2P was meant derisively). So how did you beat the wolves and bandits with a single rogue with minimal HP/Endurance?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Well GFY (variable interpretation contingent on whether L2P was meant derisively). So how did you beat the wolves and bandits with a single rogue with minimal HP/Endurance?

 

I've already shown this with the xaurips at the xaurip camp. You position yourself so you're either taking on one or two at most. The xaurips you can line up in a straight line and you take on one at a time. When one dies, the next steps up in line. The bandits weren't that hard. The wolves were harder and as long as I was sneak attacking, they went down pretty quick. And you have abilities that can make you sneak attack.

[constantine]

 

Truth is, PoE's attributes is among its greatest achievements: no godly attribute for any class, so you are free to explore the many build possibilities- dmg builds, fast-attacking, interrupt builds, duration builds, tanky ones.

 

 

 

 

This is reinforced by the fact that attributes have less impact, so you are encouraged to try combinations without losing much. In the same time the player who enjoys min-maxing will get sth out of it.

 

=============

 

 

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point. A wizard with anything other than maxed might/int is quite clearly sub-optimal in a way that does the opposite of what you suggest. Gimmick builds are possible but not really interesting in a way that a system like this should be. In an ideal world you would have several different builds that would be at least reasonably comparable in usefullness. That is not the case here. You could make a high-deflection wizard, but there is seriously no point. The talents don't lend themselves to building that way and you basically gimp the one thing wizards have going for them: AOE.

 

Honestly non-prime attributes are so useless that I almost wish attributes had been removed entirely and we moved into a completely talent-based system (with more talent points overall) and gotten some build diversity that way.

 

And I would have to disagree with you. You can have your maxed INT/MIG wizard, another can have Aloth, another can have a DEX/RES wizard, interrupting blows talent and get more interrupts.

 

Why not ? All of them work as intended.

[Monte Carlo]

 

Truth is, PoE's attributes is among its greatest achievements: no godly attribute for any class, so you are free to explore the many build possibilities- dmg builds, fast-attacking, interrupt builds, duration builds, tanky ones.

 

 

 

 

This is reinforced by the fact that attributes have less impact, so you are encouraged to try combinations without losing much. In the same time the player who enjoys min-maxing will get sth out of it.

 

=============

 

 

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point. A wizard with anything other than maxed might/int is quite clearly sub-optimal in a way that does the opposite of what you suggest. Gimmick builds are possible but not really interesting in a way that a system like this should be. In an ideal world you would have several different builds that would be at least reasonably comparable in usefullness. That is not the case here. You could make a high-deflection wizard, but there is seriously no point. The talents don't lend themselves to building that way and you basically gimp the one thing wizards have going for them: AOE.

 

Honestly non-prime attributes are so useless that I almost wish attributes had been removed entirely and we moved into a completely talent-based system (with more talent points overall) and gotten some build diversity that way.

And I would have to disagree with you. You can have your maxed INT/MIG wizard, another can have Aloth, another can have a DEX/RES wizard, interrupting blows talent and get more interrupts.

 

Why not ? All of them work as intended.

 

 

You are JE Sawyer's .alt and I claim my 6000000000000 cp.

[Gromnir]

 

Truth is, PoE's attributes is among its greatest achievements: no godly attribute for any class, so you are free to explore the many build possibilities- dmg builds, fast-attacking, interrupt builds, duration builds, tanky ones.

 

This is reinforced by the fact that attributes have less impact, so you are encouraged to try combinations without losing much. In the same time the player who enjoys min-maxing will get sth out of it.

 

=============

 

 

I have to strongly disagree with you on this point.  A wizard with anything other than maxed might/int is quite clearly sub-optimal in a way that does the opposite of what you suggest.  Gimmick builds are possible but not really interesting in a way that a system like this should be.  In an ideal world you would have several different builds that would be at least reasonably comparable in usefullness.  That is not the case here.  You could make a high-deflection wizard, but there is seriously no point.  The talents don't lend themselves to building that way and you basically gimp the one thing wizards have going for them: AOE.

 

Honestly non-prime attributes are so useless that I almost wish attributes had been removed entirely and we moved into a completely talent-based system (with more talent points overall) and gotten some build diversity that way.

 

 

no doubt the reviewer would agree with you.  unfortunately, you clear are suffering from the same disconnect as he is.  stun says half the attributes is clear dumps.  the reviewer recognizes how little pain is suffered from dumps.  the reviewer then laments how little juice he gets for the squeeze from pumping the useful attributes.

 

...

 

do you folks not see the problem with your beliefs regarding optimum builds and the conflict it creates with your actual reasoning?

 

...

 

think about it.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

And what is that disconnect, exactly? That there's no such thing as "optimal builds" in a game with an Attribute system that's been deliberately designed to have minimal impact on Builds in the first place?

 

Sure, Ok. I see the paradoxical viewpoint here. I admit it. My turn now. Do YOU? Do you see the contradiction in claiming that there's no dump stats in a game where attributes are designed to be completely dumpable in order to allow for that vaunted "total build freedom", that will no doubt result from being able to dump any stat you wish without crippling any build?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

And what is that disconnect, exactly? That there's no such thing as "optimal builds" in a game with an Attribute system that's been deliberately designed to have minimal impact on Builds in the first place?

 

Sure, Ok. I see the paradoxical viewpoint here. I admit it. My turn now. Do YOU? Do you see the contradiction in claiming that there's no dump stats in a game where attributes are designed to be completely dumpable in order to allow for that vaunted "total build freedom", that will no doubt result from being able to dump any stat you wish without crippling any build?

eh?  ok.  am fine with that.  every attribute in poe is dumpable.  if you wanna, you can dump any attribute and still have a viable build.  you not see how that invalidates the meaning o' the term, but fine.  

 

what do we win?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 27, 2015 by Gromnir

[Cronstintein]

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly.  An interesting build dilemma is when you have 2+ options and are torn between them.  This system has none of that.  You have 1 good option and several terrible ones. 

 

Yeah you CAN build like Aloth, or make an interupt build, but there's no point because they're comparitively awful.  Now the game is easy enough that it doesn't MATTER that they're awful, you can still complete.  But it doesn't create an interesting choice, hence my comment about gimmick builds (which is what you're talking about with interupt wizard).

 

Now to be fair, the IE games didn't have this either.  Basically the only 'build dilemmas' in BG were with regard to weapon proficiencies which gets super-meta since it's so gear dependant.

 

Useful variation within classes is important if you want the character progression to remain interesting.  One place where this is (almost) done right is with rogues.  You can actually build a very strong gunner rogue or two-weapon rogue.  I just wish the other classes had meaningful choices like that.  2 or 3 builds per class and you would have a unique-feeling party.  Right now all wizards are basically nukers.

 

If you're going to talk a big game about how all stats are useful for all classes, like they did during PoE development, then don't be surprised to hear complaints when you fail completely..