NPC Paladin Faith and Conviction Fix

[Luckmann]

 

 

[...]

 

Though, this is now starting to get suspiciously similar to D&D arguments about alignment.

Only for you, the rest of us aren't bound by strict dichotomous relationships in regards to disposition.

 

Also, what would be the "opposite" of Passionate and Clever?

 

When you ask her how you're doing she responds based on your dispositions. She very much approves of Diplomatic, but criticizes you if you're Cruel. With Aggressive she just remarks that you're similar to Dyrwoodians, and with Stoic she says you're basically boring. With Rational/Passionate it depends on which direction you nudge her during her quest, though it seems following her order's directives means doing the rational route. So I would guess that Diplomatic/Rational are her order's favored dispositions, which makes sense since they serve the Republics in a semi-diplomatic fashion, and Cruel/Passionate would be their disapproved dispositions.

That's just based on Pallegina herself, though, especially the Disapproved dispositions of Cruel/Passionate. I could stretch myself to Diplomatic/Rational, although I still think Aggressive/Diplomatic makes a lot more sense, but Disapproved dispositions of Cruel/Passionate? I don't see that at all.

 

Remember that the Brotherhood of the FIve Suns is political in nature and represents the Valian Republics, it would make no sense for them to be overly aggresive, cruel, or passionate. People judge their nation based on their actions.

 

 

Being Aggressive doesn't mean that they can't be used to represent your nation. Strength is respected, both within and without. Having Aggressive as a Favoured Disposition does not suggest national belligerence. From that POV, Cruel might be an issue, yes, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that they'd be Cruel or Passionate, anyway. But that in no way suggests that they'd actually disfavour Cruel or Passionate, either.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Luckmann

[Concordance]

Considering the Brotherhood of Five Suns are basically loyal enforcers for the Ducs, Diplomatic/Rational makes the most sense. Diplomatic, because they musn't cause unnecessary conflict - that would reflect badly on their masters. Rational, because they'll do whatever their masters need them to do - whether establishing trading agreements or assassinating local leaders.

 

Pallegina's own personality seems to better fit Rational/Aggressive - she will do whatever she needs to serve her order, but she also seems to opt for violent solutions without a second  thought.

[bbogovich@gmail.com]

Since there's a variety of opinions here, I just made her favored and disfavored dispositions configurable through the options menu, in a separate page.  I've contacted the person in charge of IEMod letting them know about this mod, and I sent a pull request (basically a request to merge in my changes, for those who aren't familiar with source control), so hopefully this will be in the next version of IEMod.

[Judicator]

Since there's a variety of opinions here, I just made her favored and disfavored dispositions configurable through the options menu, in a separate page.  I've contacted the person in charge of IEMod letting them know about this mod, and I sent a pull request (basically a request to merge in my changes, for those who aren't familiar with source control), so hopefully this will be in the next version of IEMod.

Probably the best choice since we can't agree on what exactly her order focuses on. I hope Josh or someone will clear it up at some point.

[Enexemander]

Considering the Brotherhood of Five Suns are basically loyal enforcers for the Ducs, Diplomatic/Rational makes the most sense. Diplomatic, because they musn't cause unnecessary conflict - that would reflect badly on their masters. Rational, because they'll do whatever their masters need them to do - whether establishing trading agreements or assassinating local leaders.

 

Pallegina's own personality seems to better fit Rational/Aggressive - she will do whatever she needs to serve her order, but she also seems to opt for violent solutions without a second  thought.

 

Pallegina isn't a paragon of her order, though. She has a good bit of internal angst about the terms of the trade agreement and the long term consequences.

 

I think having Pallegina's personal alignment be a step away from her Paladin order's alignment is about perfect.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Enexemander

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Her dispositions should be Diplomatic & Rational. She even has an interjection about using words to solve problems as to reserve strength for fights that matter. All of her motives with politics are rational, while all of her means are diplomatic. This is an easy call.

[Luckmann]

Her dispositions should be Diplomatic & Rational. She even has an interjection about using words to solve problems as to reserve strength for fights that matter. All of her motives with politics are rational, while all of her means are diplomatic. This is an easy call.

 

And for the eighteenth time or whatever, the question isn't what Pallegina is or does, but what her order is.

 

Remember Durance? Would you say that he's Clever? No? Well would you say that he's Passionate? Yes, of course.

 

Priests of Magran Favours Aggressive/Clever, and Disfavours Passionate/Diplomatic.

 

Since there's a variety of opinions here, I just made her favored and disfavored dispositions configurable through the options menu, in a separate page.  I've contacted the person in charge of IEMod letting them know about this mod, and I sent a pull request (basically a request to merge in my changes, for those who aren't familiar with source control), so hopefully this will be in the next version of IEMod.

 

That's actually really awesome, although I can see people just using it as a straight-up cheat rather than a fix, but I'd suggest changing the wording to refer to her order. People already have an incredibly hard time separating between Pallegina and her order.

[bbogovich@gmail.com]

 

Her dispositions should be Diplomatic & Rational. She even has an interjection about using words to solve problems as to reserve strength for fights that matter. All of her motives with politics are rational, while all of her means are diplomatic. This is an easy call.

 

And for the eighteenth time or whatever, the question isn't what Pallegina is or does, but what her order is.

 

Remember Durance? Would you say that he's Clever? No? Well would you say that he's Passionate? Yes, of course.

 

Priests of Magran Favours Aggressive/Clever, and Disfavours Passionate/Diplomatic.

 

Since there's a variety of opinions here, I just made her favored and disfavored dispositions configurable through the options menu, in a separate page.  I've contacted the person in charge of IEMod letting them know about this mod, and I sent a pull request (basically a request to merge in my changes, for those who aren't familiar with source control), so hopefully this will be in the next version of IEMod.

 

That's actually really awesome, although I can see people just using it as a straight-up cheat rather than a fix, but I'd suggest changing the wording to refer to her order. People already have an incredibly hard time separating between Pallegina and her order.

 

 

 

I had thought of the "cheat" aspect of this as well, but with the console access we already have there are far worse ways to cheat, if one so desires (insta-kill, god mode, etc.).  The patch has been merged into IEMod (v4.16), available on Nexus.

[CriticalFailure]

Technically off-topic, but somewhat related: I don't know the specifics, but I've just read that priest's Holy Radiance depends somewhat on reputations. Is this an issue with NPCs too? If so, can it be fixed in a similar way?

[Luckmann]

Technically off-topic, but somewhat related: I don't know the specifics, but I've just read that priest's Holy Radiance depends somewhat on reputations. Is this an issue with NPCs too? If so, can it be fixed in a similar way?

©NPC Priests are not affected by Reputation by default, but this mod also fixes that. It does not just fix Paladins.

[CriticalFailure]

Ah, I must have missed that part. Good to know.

[Luckmann]

The dispositions seem to be organized into the following opposing pairs:

 

Deceptive - Honest

 

Passionate - Rational

 

Benevolent - Cruel

 

Clever - Stoic

 

Aggressive - Diplomatic

 

If you look at the favoured/disfavoured dispositions of the Paladin orders, you'll see that their preferences mostly conform to this list in that if they favour one disposition, they'll tend to disfavour its opposite. Further, no orders or faiths will simultaneously favour or simultaneously disfavour both sides of an opposing pair.

 

With this in mind, Aggressive/Diplomatic for the Bird Lady's order should probably be avoided.

Why would Passionate be opposed by Rational, and not Stoic? And why would Clever be opposed to either? I'm sorry, but the dichotomy theory doesn't match up, just because there's a certain parity to the system inherent in these various dispositions, such as honesty and deceptiveness. Even benevolence and cruelty doesn't need to be opposed; I can be benevolent towards peasants, just to be incredibly cruel towards their oppressors.

 

Also, if you include the Favoured/Disfavoured Dispositions lists of Priests and Paladins both, you'll see that the theory holds very little merit, nevermind that even if it would've been true, hard dichotomy is ****ing boring. And if you want to make interesting characters and organizations, you should definitely shy away from doing things like super-good vs. super-evil or "always truthful, never deceptive".

 

In fact, only three out of 10 completely matches up to this hard dichotomy you propose, and this is in a system with 10 different Dispositions, and each Deity or Order has to include 4 different dispositions.

 

And lastly, Aggressive/Diplomatic still makes perfect sense as the Order's favoured Dispositions based on what we know. They're different functions at different times, but they're both equally part of the order. Just because an order favours Aggressive doesn't make them raving lunatics that tries to attack you at every turn, nor does the Diplomacy diposition turn you into a talky seneschal.

[CriticalFailure]

Rational = Think with your head. Passionate = Think with your heart. I admit that Clever and Stoic don't exactly feel -opposed- (unless you see Clever as talking when you shouldn't, or something like that), but the others are pretty clear. It's just how the game works, which doesn't mean I completely agree with it.

 

Even benevolence and cruelty doesn't need to be opposed; I can be benevolent towards peasants, just to be incredibly cruel towards their oppressors.

That's a different matter. Nobody is 100% good or 100% evil, but I think we can agree that those are opposites. The fact that you, as a person, see the world in different shades of grey doesn't mean that black and white themselves aren't opposites.

 

That said, a paladin order could have two opposites as favoured, if it worked as in your example.

 

Back to Pallegina, it may not be perfect, but I think that increasing the bonuses at level up or something along those lines would work decently enough while avoiding some headaches and metagaming (and the bonuses would come roughly at the same time). As it is right now, I can see some people making her favour different dispositions depending on what character they're playing.

 

Also, keep in mind that many of the disposition-changing conversation options are simply based on your way to express yourself, rather than making decisions with any impact whatsoever. If I choose to talk to everybody I run into like a "clever" smartass, that doesn't mean Pallegina does (or favours) so as well.

Edited April 30, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[Omnicron]

So what was the final choice made on this topic? Installed the Mod and this is my Pallegina 

 

[Crucis]

Rational = Think with your head. Passionate = Think with your heart. I admit that Clever and Stoic don't exactly feel -opposed- (unless you see Clever as talking when you shouldn't, or something like that), but the others are pretty clear. It's just how the game works, which doesn't mean I completely agree with it.

 

While there's a certain amount of logic to this, I'd say that Stoic is the opposite of Passionate for the following reason.   Passionate sort of means wearing your emotions on your sleeve for all to see, for the most part, whereas Stoic sort of means holding your emotions inside and keeping them to yourself.

 

 

I see Pallegina as more of a Passionate character than actually being outright Aggressive.  The Passionate character lets people know how they feel about things verbally, whereas I think that one could say that the Aggressive character will tend to act on those feelings, rather than merely express them in words.  And I just get the feeling that Pallegina is more of one to let people know how she feels verbally than to translate those feelings into action and violence at the drop of a hat.

 

 

...

 

As for what Pallegina's second favored disposition might be, I don't really know.  I think that I would say that if one sees here as Passionate, then Stoic should be one of her disfavored dispositions.  In at least one dialog with her, she appears to take a dim view of the PC responding to the Valian ambassador in a Stoic manner, so that seems like a strong clue that she disfavors Stoicism.  I also get the feeling that Diplomatic isn't one of her preferred dispositions, since one at least one occasion she refers to herself as a warrior more than a diplomat (during her diplomatic trade talks, IIRC).

 

 

 

Of course, as someone pointed out above, what Pallegina's personal dispositions may be almost certainly don't align perfectly with what her order's favored and disfavored dispositions are.  I do think that Diplomatic probably should be one of her order's favored dispositions.  Of course, this creates the "problem" that if the faith and conviction bonuses were fully function for NPC paladin's, Pallegina would be taking a hit because she wasn't well aligned with her order's dispositions.  Of course, I suppose that some of this could be countered by having her take the "Untroubled Faith" (?) talent/class ability.

[Snowscoran]

 

The dispositions seem to be organized into the following opposing pairs:

 

Deceptive - Honest

 

Passionate - Rational

 

Benevolent - Cruel

 

Clever - Stoic

 

Aggressive - Diplomatic

 

If you look at the favoured/disfavoured dispositions of the Paladin orders, you'll see that their preferences mostly conform to this list in that if they favour one disposition, they'll tend to disfavour its opposite. Further, no orders or faiths will simultaneously favour or simultaneously disfavour both sides of an opposing pair.

 

With this in mind, Aggressive/Diplomatic for the Bird Lady's order should probably be avoided.

Why would Passionate be opposed by Rational, and not Stoic? And why would Clever be opposed to either?

 

First off, keep in mind that these are just names devs used for the dispositions. Sure, there's no good reason- irl- that a stoic couldn't also be very clever. In terms of what it means in ingame dialogue, however, one is being a smartass and the other keeping silent.

 

As for passionate and rational, that really should be clear-cut. One is making decisions based on emotions, the other is more of a cynical, calculating, very utilitarian logic-based decisionmaking.

 

 

Even benevolence and cruelty doesn't need to be opposed; I can be benevolent towards peasants, just to be incredibly cruel towards their oppressors.

 

(...)

 

And lastly, Aggressive/Diplomatic still makes perfect sense as the Order's favoured Dispositions based on what we know. They're different functions at different times, but they're both equally part of the order.

I think you're approaching this in a strange way. The fact that you can act incnsistently doesn't really prove anything.

 

Further, the disposition system isn't made to represent the sort of things you mentioned. Let's say you had an order that favoured cruel/benevolent, with the rationale that they're benevolent only to peasants and cruel to their oppressors. The way the disposition system works, you'd still be improving your order benefits by whipping peasants and giving aid to others instead.

 

The only way to actually model such an order in the current framework would be to make them neither favour or disfavour cruel or benevolent, since the order doesn't take a principled stand in favour of either disposition's general applicability.

 

The disposition system only works for a general approach. If your order advocates helping people in need as a general rule, it probably favours the benevolent disposition. If it's open for harsh treatment of their oppressors, then it probably wouldn't have cruel disfavoured.

 

 

Also, if you include the Favoured/Disfavoured Dispositions lists of Priests and Paladins both, you'll see that the theory holds very little merit (...) In fact, only three out of 10 completely matches up to this hard dichotomy you propose, and this is in a system with 10 different Dispositions, and each Deity or Order has to include 4 different dispositions.

I did look at both. Everything I said still holds, namely:

 

If you look at the favoured/disfavoured dispositions of the Paladin orders, you'll see that their preferences mostly conform to this list in that if they favour one disposition, they'll tend to disfavour its opposite. Further, no orders or faiths will simultaneously favour or simultaneously disfavour both sides of an opposing pair.

 

nevermind that even if it would've been true, hard dichotomy is ****ing boring.

The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it less true.

 

 

if you want to make interesting characters and organizations, you should definitely shy away from doing things like super-good vs. super-evil or "always truthful, never deceptive".

You don't have to do that, though. The system allows for several nuances. Eothasians are expected to be forthright and never lie (honest favoured, deceptive disfavoured), while shieldbearers are allowed the occasional lie in the line of service, as long as they're generally forthright (honest favoured, deceptive NOT disfavoured). The only faith that's hardcore anti-honesty is Wael, because apparently if you worship mystery you're not really allowed to give a straight answer.

[Gs11]

I have question about IE's mod Npc Disposition Fix: if I'm getting description in tooltip wright, this fix applies bonus from respective diety/order to   npc priest/palladin. So I have in my team Durance and Pallegina. As Durance's diety is Margran, celebrated behavior are aggressive, clever and disfavored are passionate,diplomatic. For Pallegina's behavior we have option which allow us to choose prefered options.

 

My main questions are:

-is this fix truly works for Durance and Pallegina bonus skill interdiction/faith and conviction?

-and how does this reputation mechanics works for my teammates bonuses?It's about my personal character stastistics(dispositions) in scoresheet, like clever 1, aggressive 1 etc., so my choices in dialogue options affects Durance and Pallegina bonuses?Or is this about my behavior whem I'm talking personally with Durance/Pallegina   after rest for example, which couse adequate answers from them, and Durance's/Pallegina's answers have impact on their bonuses?So what does matter, my personal dispositions which I can check in statistics, or just Durance's/Pallegina's behavior which I can only couse through my actions but can't check at any time in any scoresheet or something? If it is like this(its' about Durance/Palleginas actions and answers, not mine and no option to check in scoresheet), the only way to see how my priest/palladin skill bonus  is calculated( positive or negative impact) is to see  their skill tooltip and compare with state in beginning of the game?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Gs11

[Ymarsakar]

"-is this fix truly works for Durance and Pallegina bonus skill interdiction/faith and conviction?"

 

For Pallegina's faith and conviction, yes it does.

 

"Or is this about my behavior whem I'm talking personally with Durance/Pallegina"

 

It's your total disposition, on your character sheet, which includes All your dialogue choices and quest choices.

 

For faith and conviction, you can easily see on the character sheet what the numbers are. If the deflection is more than 5-6, then you have a bonus.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Gs11]

From what I see in the game, it also works for Durance's interdiction as well.