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@Kaigen42

 

 

 

@Kaigen42 if you compare auras with level 1 priest spells (the ones I never ever use) then what do you compare the priests level 2-6 spells with? 

Lets see...

- A bunch of good AoE heals vs Lay on hands that can be used twice. If we are also considering casting time then the paladin fails yet again: LoH is average, priest heals are fast.

- Buffs: always on vs all at once for a limited duration. They both fail in this case, but the priest has way better higher level buffs.

- Flames of Devotion vs lets say Divine Mark. The priest has a far better arsenal, AoE included.

- Exhortations vs similar spells. The priest performs either equally well, but a bit different or far better.

- Tanking: probably the only thing where the paladin is better. Honestly I never used a priest as a frontliner, but I don't think it'd perform very well.

 

Lets talk about those auras again, do you still think the paladin shouldn't be better at anything other than tanking than a priest?

Well, the short answer is that I compare high level Priest spells to spells of other casters because I don't think you can meaningfully compare those to the abilities of non-casters. You may as well compare Repulsing seal or Pillar of Faith to the Fighter's Clear Out. But to go in order...

  • Priest spells are great for having AoE's and being fast casting, but when I compare my 2 Might Paladin to my 19 Might Priest, the Priest has to drop level 4 or better spells to heal a single target as much as the Paladin's Lay on Hands.
  • Priest buffs are pretty amazing, as is only proper, considering the Priest is a dedicated spellcaster. The Priest doesn't get any attack speed buffs, though.
  • How are we even comparing a 2nd level spell that does flat damage to an encounter ability you get at level 1 that buffs a melee attack? One is equipment dependent and the other isn't. Flames of Devotion deals 50% of the damage dealt by the Paladin's attack before DR is taken into account, like a double-strength elemental lash. Taken as a whole, an FoD attack from a high level, two-handed weapon wieldng DPS Paladin can deal more damage than a Priest's Divine Mark. Of course, Divine Mark has a Deflection debuff and better high level damaging spells, but they've got to be compensated for venturing into melee as a low endurance, low deflection class.
  • As I said before, I think the Paladin's support abilities could use some work, especially the exhortations (with the notable exception of Hastening). Liberating Exhortation is too limited to be useful as anything but a delivery mechanism for an accuracy buff as a Darcozzi. Reinforcing Exhortation comes long after the Priest has had access to the superior Circle of Protection. Reviving Exhortation doesn't even work properly, but at least it sort of does something useful

Going beyond Exhortations, Inspiring Triumph provides a laughable buff for the trouble you have to go through to get it. I used Deprive the Unworthy all of once in my PotD run, because most of the tough enemies in the game are tough because they have innately high stats, not from buffs. Sworn Enemy isn't bad for a DPS build, but it only helps the Paladin. I haven't used Coordinated Attacks, but while a passive accuracy bonus is nice, the party member you want to have more accuracy probably isn't the one standing closest to your Paladin. Edit: That's what I get for trying to use the wiki for abilities I haven't personally used, it looks like Coordinated Attacks got cut and instead we have Righteous Soul, which is...okay I guess? It's a nice idea, but my Paladins generally don't get targeted with charms/dominates to begin with, and the other status effects aren't dangerous enough to spend an ability slot on.

 

I'm not saying Paladins don't have problems (though I do think they're more serviceable than some give them credit for being). But I don't think their level 1 abilities or auras are where those problems lie. It's between level 3 and 11 where the Paladin has a lot of issues.

 

 

 

I compare FoD (Pallegina with a greatsword) to DM (Durance) because in practice it does about as much average damage. Durance has more might and Pallegina clearly got a bad roll. It may sound like apples and oranges but you are thinking of spells in DnD terms. Think of spells as different weapons. They have min and max damage and get a boost from might and other multipliers.

 

 

gclQmSH.jpg

 

 

 

Edit: quotes in spoiler

Edited by dukefx

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disagree with Gromnir?  no.  disagree with the developers.  is not a link to a Gromnir post after all.  critical failure indeed.

The abilities that are in the actual game were put there by the developers too. You seem to be ignoring that part. Mistaking them with their counterparts in other games is not the issue; I'm just looking at other things besides your link. If you improve solely their support, they'll still have problems, unless you just revamp the whole class from their current state (which is about the same as in DnD in practice, regardless of the original intention).

 

If you want to quote stuff that the devs wrote, this is from their description in game:

 

Paladins are martial zealots, devoted to a god, a ruler, or even a way of life. They can be found in any culture where a fanatical group of like-minded individuals have formed a warrior society dedicated to advancing their cause.

So I'm not pulling the "warrior" part of the class out of my ass.

 

you can selective quote all you want.  on literal dozens o' occasions, obsidian stated that paladins in poe is a support class.   scroll up and see where your fellow poster quoted from the linked material that the role o' the paladin is as a support character.

 

"Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity."

 

paladins is specific identified as a support class whose primary function is to buff, cleanse and heal their party members.   "martial" don't necessarily mean that they can dps in poe.  martial don't necessarily mean that they tank.  perhaps to YOU martial means that a paladin should be able to wield a sword with similar efficacy as rogues, but obsidian has specific stated, many times, that the paladin role is support.  utilizing the General talents, paladins can be made adequate with weapons, but that ain't their role.  

 

*shrug*

 

you are being willful obtuse and am not certain why this obtuseness regarding the paladin is so damned pervasive... other than our earlier observation 'bout the naming choice.  poe paladins don't match what you believe they is conceptual 'posed to do, so you ignore what obsidian has unambiguously stated 'bout the role o' paladins.  well congrats, but this is yet another critical failure on your part.

 

play a monk.  wanna tank and do some serious damage while tanking?  play a monk as that is the class for it.

 

play a priest.  wanna play a support character that can have extreme high accuracy with at least 1 weapon?  you can do that with a priest.

 

those thing you want you can get from poe, but you cannot necessarily get them from the poe paladin.  so play something other than a paladin.  is a class-based system, so not every class will, or should be able to do everything.  it should be obvious that the more classes you got, the more narrowly defined the class roles must be to keep them unique.  the poe paladin is a low-maintenance support character with admirable defensive qualities that is 'posed to have powerful single-target heals, cleanses and debuffs.  that is their role.  where they fail in that role is where it needs be fixed.  make 'em do more dps?  nope. 

 

but they wear armour?  but they are in knightly orders?  so freaking what?  we went through this earlier that the word "fighter" did not prevent obsidian from designing that cass initially as a low-maintenance tank character.  

 

...

 

the inability o' folks to overcome the naming hurdle/obstacle is something we find a bit amusing, but no doubt the obsidians is more frustrated by the quixotic behaviour o' some o' the community.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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... They're called a "martial" class because they're meant by the developers to be in the thick of melee. They have high Accuracy, high Deflection, and High Endurance. It's not a mystery what's going on there.

 

Paladins are, in my opinion, in a bad state because they don't adequately make up for their lack of effective prowess on the frontline with their support abilities. It's a matter of balance, not definition.

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I certainly notice if a Chanter is or is not present.

 

Huh. Kana could have been replaced with an autoturret on a tripod in my playthrough, and I wouldn't have known the difference. Talk about low maintenance. Probably used ten invocations over the course of 80 hours, most from accidentally glancing at his Phrase meter.

 

Priests are wonderful, of course, but that's mostly due to the fact that a handful of their spells are too good, greatly overshadowing the rest of the support options in the game, including Paladin's, which are piecemeal by comparison. Unlimited rest exacerbates the problem even more.

 

"How about +20 Accuracy and some Might for my party and -20 Accuracy and some Might for their party, for the whole fight, with the cast of a single spell?" "Sounds balanced."

 

 

Just like the blindness spell for wizard, it has a 20 sec duration gives -25 to accuracy and -20 to deflection (effectively -24 to deflection as it debuffs perception by -4) and is a 2nd level spell.  So at level 11 with decent Int ( I try to go for around 20 for wizards with items)  You can spam Oil slicks and blindess all day long, keeping almost all foes blind on their butts.  And then you run around critting them with Fan of Flames because of their Reflex penalty.

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The interesting thing that I find a bit odd about the class system is this ...

 

Spellcasters (druids, mages, ciphers, priests) have a lot of spells to casts.

 

But non-spellcasters, including the paladin, do not have a lot of active abilities. What I find strange is that most of their abilities are passives. They have a lot of passives and some modals that make them better than combat. Which makes sense, but ... 

 

I really thought paladins could "do" more ... oh, I dunno ... dispel magic, put up protective spheres, cast exorcism, something. 

 

I also was disappointed by the ranger. Why not more "active" abilities to fire special kinds of shots? 

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You're missing my point and you seem determined to mistake a different opinion for inability to understand you, so I'm not going to keep wasting my time.

am understanding your point, and Gromnir keeps trying to tell you that you are failing to understand the point that obsidian made regarding the paladin dozens o' times. obsidian were not obscure.  is not a matter o' difference o' opinion that you is seeming purposeful trying to force the round peg paladin into the square hole expectations you got for the class. 

 

fix support features o' paladin so the class is more engaging or more efficacious?  sure, that makes sense.  'course what you is doing is latching onto words such as "fighter" or martial" and reading into poe classes a plethora o' attributes that they do not have, never had, and were never s'posed to have.  your initial misconceptions is forgivable and perfectly reasonable as obsidian did use familiar names for their classes while giving those classes atypical qualities.  the disconnect were predictable.  nevertheless, once you have been presented with obsidian plans and view o' the poe paladin, you (and many like you) continue to embrace your misconception as the appropriate direction for the class.  is... weird.  

 

if obsidian had given the poe paladin a different name...

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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You speak much of what the dev's plan for the paladin is... but what I haven't heard is how that's supposed to fit in with their vision of the classes playing differently based on what stats you have - like how an intelligent fighter can go for long-lasting knockdowns, or how you can use defensive talents with offensive stats to DPS... or go with the standard route of high armor and retal armor.

 

Speaking only of one fixed developer vision of the class seems a bit myopic, I think.  And one that's somewhat at odds of them having several different paladin orders... different visions of what a paladin can be.

 

Perhaps one change that might make more paladin builds viable would be to make the activated abilities of paladin into a single resource, perhaps called blessings.  So say you have 4 blessings at the start of combat.  That can mean 4 smites, 4 lay on hands, 4 exhortations, or any combination of these.  So a bleak walker or kind wayfarer would be using all their blessings strategically for getting kills and triggering their own abilities, whereas a more support-oriented paladin would be choosing abilities more carefully.  You might even let the resource recharge based on getting kills, so a bleak walker arquebuser could potentially be getting a kill (and thus refilling the charge that they just spent) almost every shot, whereas a less damage-oriented pally would be looking to rebuild their stock of blessings with weaker hits.

 

The reason for and idea behind this is it lets a paladin play to their strengths - one that has a lot of might would be using more lay on hands and smites, whereas a intelligence-based paladin would use the same charges for longer-lasting buffs and debuffs, and hope that he gets the odd leftover kill for more of them.

Edited by Manty5
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*sigh*

 

you can customize the heck out o' the poe classes, but they are classes.  distinct. separate. unique.  

 

our favorite build so far is a priest with the following stats:

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 16

i  16

r  16

 

priest o' wael with incomprehensible revelation, peasant weapon focus, two-handed weapons, scion o' flame and skill points mostly in mechanics and lore.  

 

is an excellent combatant who can near guarantee crits with seal (the arcane traps, not the marine mammals) spells and has access to a large % o' dialogue options.  again, with a quarterstaff in hand, the priest is an excellent combatant, even with sub-optimal attributes.  even so, it would be ridiculous for Gromnir to try and improve the priest class 'cause we observe that priests make poor tanks.  and as good as we is at dealing hurt in combat, we can't compare with a dedicated dps monk build or a rogue.  we got loads o' options with general talents to customize how we wish.  that is also part o' the developer vision.  given the limitations o' the classes, we still got incredible room to customize.  but you know what, no matter what we do with the priest, we should not be able to make it exceed a rogue for damage potential with melee weapons.  

 

...

 

whatever paladin order you choose and however you customize, the paladin is still designed as a support class. did you read the link?  am thinking that few folks do.  we got other links but we can't even get folks to read the one we already provided.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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... They're called a "martial" class because they're meant by the developers to be in the thick of melee. They have high Accuracy, high Deflection, and High Endurance. It's not a mystery what's going on there.

 

Paladins are, in my opinion, in a bad state because they don't adequately make up for their lack of effective prowess on the frontline with their support abilities. It's a matter of balance, not definition.

Oh, I agree. Just saying that combat abilities (on-kill ones, FoD...) do exist and are kinda crappy, and addressing only the support isn't gonna fix them. Not beyond "slightly less crappy", anyway.

 

But I'm saying nothing new here.

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I think something that's fairly noteworthy is Reviving Exhortation is a per encounter ability, that's a pretty strong thing to have (seeing as most other revival options either take some time to set up - Chanters - or they're per rest - Priests). I think things like Zealous Endurance is pretty neat too, it's a fairly strong benefit that's in constant effect. Overall, I'm very happy with how Paladins play.

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I think something that's fairly noteworthy is Reviving Exhortation is a per encounter ability, that's a pretty strong thing to have (seeing as most other revival options either take some time to set up - Chanters - or they're per rest - Priests). I think things like Zealous Endurance is pretty neat too, it's a fairly strong benefit that's in constant effect. Overall, I'm very happy with how Paladins play.

 

Reviving Exhortation isn't as much a rez as a brief way to get someone cast a couple more spells because it kills the targeted ally after its effect have worn of. It's hardly ever useful in its current form.

 

Zealous Endurance doesn't stack with most other DR, more specifically the level 1 Priest Spell which gives almost double the DR. A spell that becomes castable per encounter at level 9 and considering that hard encounters are far between each other at low levels, you'll have it up whenever you really need the buff.

Edited by eubatham
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I think something that's fairly noteworthy is Reviving Exhortation is a per encounter ability, that's a pretty strong thing to have (seeing as most other revival options either take some time to set up - Chanters - or they're per rest - Priests). I think things like Zealous Endurance is pretty neat too, it's a fairly strong benefit that's in constant effect. Overall, I'm very happy with how Paladins play.

Reviving Exhortation isn't as much a rez as a brief way to get someone cast a couple more spells because it kills the targeted ally after its effect have worn of.

 

Zealous Endurance doesn't stack with most other DR, more specifically the level 1 Priest Spell which gives almost double the DR. A spell that becomes castable per encounter at level 9 and considering that hard encounters are far between each other at low levels, you'll have it up whenever you really need the buff.

 

 

Also worth noting that typically if you are in a battle where members of the team are dying, then yes, the time it takes Chanter to be able to use his res invocation is much less of a factor. I.E., Paladin's res is more universally useful for the easy fights where ressing a person is not a matter of life or death, but for the serious fights that might result in a game over, Chanter's (and Priest's) is far superior because you should have more than enough time to react and buy time for that chant to build up.


"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we were gonna correct eub regarding the efficacy o' paladin revive, but what is the point, eh?

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I tested everything myself, thank you very much.

 

Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.

 

Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

Edited by MadDemiurg

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I tested everything myself, thank you very much.

 

Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.

 

Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

 

 

So much this^^

 

From what I've tested it basically works like:

-Aura = spells, does NOT stack with any spells.

-Chants work with everything

-Radiance works with everything

 

Basically it boils down to the per encounter stuff stacks, and similar 'class' stuff.  Where as auras get over written by any number of buffs easily.

Edited by MoxyWoo

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I tested everything myself, thank you very much.

 

Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.

 

Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

 

again, do a search.  being ignorant is not a crime.  being willfull ignorant is unforgivable.

 

you are correct that level 1 bless accuracy boost does not stack with zealous focus.  and from that you extrapolate a general rule o' application?

 

do the search. honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I tested everything myself, thank you very much.

 

Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.

 

Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

 

again, do a search.  being ignorant is not a crime.  being willfull ignorant is unforgivable.

 

you are correct that level 1 bless accuracy boost does not stack with zealous focus.  and from that you extrapolate a general rule o' application?

 

do the search. honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As I said, critical boost might stack (and probably does) but you're effectively picking 1 class ability and a talent for 5% hit to crit conversion which is like 2% dps increase effectively, even though it's party wide. 

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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)

...

 

where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises?  is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells.  priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable.  unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...

 

am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I tested everything myself, thank you very much.

 

Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.

 

Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

 

again, do a search.  being ignorant is not a crime.  being willfull ignorant is unforgivable.

 

you are correct that level 1 bless accuracy boost does not stack with zealous focus.  and from that you extrapolate a general rule o' application?

 

do the search. honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As I said, critical boost might stack (and probably does) but you're effectively picking 1 class ability and a talent for 5% hit to crit conversion which is like 2% dps increase effectively, even though it's party wide. 

 

*sigh*

 

is closer to 2-3% dps... depending on other factors.  so is similar to a pervasive point o' might increase for an entire party if you build a high intelligence paladin, but you are missing the point.

 

do the search.  really.  consider this a teaching moment, or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Ok, doing a search rendered references to some wonky bugs like zealous focus stacking with itself which I have not encountered in my playthroughs or stuff I've already tested myself.

 

To summarize (again):

 

  • Zealous focus accuracy bonus doesn't stack with accuracy spells (apart from spells that give +melee/ranged accuracy like devotions of the faithful or borrowed instinct, which are a different effect and stack with accuracy spells themselves). Crit conversion bonus DOES stack, but it's very small.
  • Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith or wood skin
  • Zealous charge likely does not stack with speed spells (didn't test), but these are relatively rare (wiz self buffs) and it does stack with chants because chants DO stack with spells
  • Darcozzi unique accuracy buff does stack with spells. Likewise, Reinforcing exhortation deflection buff also stacks with spells. Finally smth decent.
Edited by MadDemiurg

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Ok, doing a search rendered references to some wonky bugs like zealous focus stacking with itself which I have not encountered in my playthroughs or stuff I've already tested myself.

 

To summarize (again):

 

  • Zealous focus accuracy bonus doesn't stack with accuracy spells (apart from spells that give +melee/ranged accuracy like devotions of the faithful or borrowed instinct, which are a different effect and stack with accuracy spells themselves). Crit conversion bonus DOES stack, but it's very small.
  • Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith or wood skin
  • Zealous charge likely does not stack with speed spells (didn't test), but these are relatively rare (wiz self buffs) and it does stack with chants because chants DO stack with spells
  • Darcozzi unique accuracy buff does stack with spells. Likewise, Reinforcing exhortation deflection buff also stacks with spells. Finally smth decent.

 

 

From what I've tested it basically works like: (repost from above)

-Aura = spells, does NOT stack with any spells.  Only highest counts.

-Chants work with everything, hence why Zealous Charge works with them.

-Inspiring Radiance works with everything, hence why Zealous Aim works with them.

 

To summarize... Auras act as spells, so any spells will override them.  Inspiring Exhortation was actually more in line with the priest encounter, hence like the chanter stuff it seems to stack.

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*shakes head sadly*

 

you could search even in this post and you would find how zealous focus is gonna stack with priest abilities.  not need to look very hard.

 

 

Ok, doing a search rendered references to some wonky bugs like zealous focus stacking with itself which I have not encountered in my playthroughs or stuff I've already tested myself.

 

To summarize (again):

 

  • Zealous focus accuracy bonus doesn't stack with accuracy spells (apart from spells that give +melee/ranged accuracy like devotions of the faithful or borrowed instinct, which are a different effect and stack with accuracy spells themselves). Crit conversion bonus DOES stack, but it's very small.
  • Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith or wood skin
  • Zealous charge likely does not stack with speed spells (didn't test), but these are relatively rare (wiz self buffs) and it does stack with chants because chants DO stack with spells
  • Darcozzi unique accuracy buff does stack with spells. Likewise, Reinforcing exhortation deflection buff also stacks with spells. Finally smth decent.

 

 

the crit bonus is not as insignificant as you make it seem, particular as it is potential party-wide and persistent, but for funsies, add in the actual full range o' bonuses from the first level priest spell you wanted to dismiss as being overridden by zealous foucs: bless.  is probable the poor reading skills that made you overlook something important. 

 

so, inspiring radiance + zealous focus+ bless results in what kinda synergy from combination o' persistent aura, a per encounter ability and a lowly first level priest spell...

 

but again, this is all repeated.  

 

Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. 

 

you were wrong.  dead wrong.  horribly and morbidly wrong 'cause you didn't bother genuine looking for answers even after you were informed that you were wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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*shakes head sadly*

 

you could search even in this post and you would find how zealous focus is gonna stack with priest abilities.  not need to look very hard.

 

 

Ok, doing a search rendered references to some wonky bugs like zealous focus stacking with itself which I have not encountered in my playthroughs or stuff I've already tested myself.

 

To summarize (again):

 

  • Zealous focus accuracy bonus doesn't stack with accuracy spells (apart from spells that give +melee/ranged accuracy like devotions of the faithful or borrowed instinct, which are a different effect and stack with accuracy spells themselves). Crit conversion bonus DOES stack, but it's very small.
  • Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith or wood skin
  • Zealous charge likely does not stack with speed spells (didn't test), but these are relatively rare (wiz self buffs) and it does stack with chants because chants DO stack with spells
  • Darcozzi unique accuracy buff does stack with spells. Likewise, Reinforcing exhortation deflection buff also stacks with spells. Finally smth decent.

 

 

the crit bonus is not as insignificant as you make it seem, particular as it is potential party-wide and persistent, but for funsies, add in the actual full range o' bonuses from the first level priest spell you wanted to dismiss as being overridden by zealous foucs: bless.  is probable the poor reading skills that made you overlook something important. 

 

so, inspiring radiance + zealous focus+ bless results in what kinda synergy from combination o' persistent aura, a per encounter ability and a lowly first level priest spell...

 

but again, this is all repeated.  

 

Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. 

 

you were wrong.  dead wrong.  horribly and morbidly wrong 'cause you didn't bother genuine looking for answers even after you were informed that you were wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!

It's very nice of you to turn to personal insults when you run out of actual arguments. I've looked through this thread again in search for revelation but found none.

 

Let's see:

 

Blessing + Zealous focus + Inspiring radiance...

 

+5 accuracy blessing (overridden by +6 from focus), +15% dmg blessing, +5 accuracy radiance (stacks with everything), +5% hit to crit focus (as discussed 2-3% dps effectively) for a total of +11 accuracy, +15% damage and +5% hit to crit.

 

Let's see what the Paladin is providing here: +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. Sounds like an awesome synergy to me.

 

Good Fun!

Edited by MadDemiurg

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so, instead o' admitting you were wrong, you continue on unmindful o' your error?  kinda deserving o' insult.  and our illumination o' your errors is no different now than it were a few posts ago.  only difference is you compound error.  heck, even eub had the honesty to admit his error.  you were wrong.  you are wrong.  in every paladin thread this exact same issue gets raised and yet there is always at least one guy who blunders on oblivious to the fact that the issue is obsolete and that the individual's mistake in assuming that there is no stacking with priestly abilities is some kinda epiphany. 

 

the paladin aura stacks with the priestly ability, and stacks very effective.  as you finally admitted, +11% accuracy, +15% damage and +5% crit.   the paladin's +6% accuracy boost is persistent.  the paladin provides +6% accuracy and +5% crit before, during and after the priest casts his spells.  the priest could instead choose to cast dire blessing, which also stacks, and the the same +11% accuracy would remain... though actual damage output would be increased.

 

and yes, the combo is a very effective synergy inspite o' your silly attempts to dismiss.  is actual  a more useful combination than your chanter example given the chanting mechanic.  regardless, the chant is not the only example, is it?

 

oh well.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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