Are Paladins really not that bad?

[Kaylon]

@gkathellar

Well, there's a talent/ability that makes it unimportant whether you picked a reputation which doesn't fit your order.

 

Yes, but that means you won't be able to pick a better talent instead.

[eubatham]

At how many disposition points is a pala maxed out again? 3? Because I'm level 6 now and already at passionate 3 and clever 2.

 

The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.

Edited April 25, 2015 by eubatham

[Raven Darkholme]

That means even as Darcozzi you are maxed out with level 7, I wouldn't consider that late. What I find interesting is the extremely high reflex def of the pala. With DEX only at 8 and haven't picked deep faith yet I've got 107 reflex with level 7. Def is at 115. So I guess by level 12 or even earlier I should reach 140+ reflex, which should enable me to block Adra Dragon breath.

[MadDemiurg]

That means even as Darcozzi you are maxed out with level 7, I wouldn't consider that late. What I find interesting is the extremely high reflex def of the pala. With DEX only at 8 and haven't picked deep faith yet I've got 107 reflex with level 7. Def is at 115. So I guess by level 12 or even earlier I should reach 140+ reflex, which should enable me to block Adra Dragon breath.

140 is still 30% hit chance. You'll need 170 for 35% grazes only (which still hurt A LOT) and a theoretical 205 for complete immunity.

[Raven Darkholme]

Damn I shoulda gone full dex then.:D

[Longknife]

 

At how many disposition points is a pala maxed out again? 3? Because I'm level 6 now and already at passionate 3 and clever 2.

 

The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.

 

 

It's 4.

 

Also for those bragging they have over 100 of a stat for Paladin, that's pretty much expected on Fighter too. It's nothing new or special.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Longknife

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

At how many disposition points is a pala maxed out again? 3? Because I'm level 6 now and already at passionate 3 and clever 2.

 

The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.

 

 

It's 4.

 

Also for those bragging they have over 100 of a stat for Paladin, that's pretty much expected on Fighter too. It's nothing new or special.

 

 

Having 100 def in Act 3 as the other guy "bragged", yes thats bad. Having 100 with a small shield and without a hatchet with Level 5 is quite good, with large shield and hatchet you can have it earlier ofc.

[CriticalFailure]

 

The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.

 

 

It's 4.

 

Dispositions go up to 4, but Faith and Conviction maxes out at 3. As far as that talent goes, there's no difference between 3 and 4.

[Longknife]

 

 

The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.

 

 

It's 4.

 

Dispositions go up to 4, but Faith and Conviction maxes out at 3. As far as that talent goes, there's no difference between 3 and 4.

 

 

 

Isn't it awesome how I keep learning new things about the ways Paladins suck ass?

[b0rsuk]

PC Fighter > NPC/Adventurer Paladin. Since faith and conviction doesn't work.

 

But I would still favor the Fighter as a PC over the Paladin. The Fighter can completely dump Con and Int and have 18 Might, Dex, Res, Per while a Paladin cannot do that. The paladin needs Int for abilities and auroras or they are pointless. And yeah there are several regen items but a fighter has 2 regen talents and a fighter specific regen cape and more might more regen. Fighters don't need Int they have 2 abilities that use it and aren't really needed. And with max might and the those regen talents & items dont need Con.

 

(...)

 

A Priest can have just as high deflection as a Paladin however they wont be able to last as long if they are taking damage between rests. Their Endurance might not be far off but overall HP the Paladin will nearly double the Priest.

 

However A Priest can still deal damage out in melee even with the biggest shield. Take the Skaen priest. +10 to stilettos and clubs. If you take the ruffian talent that is +6 and clubs have a natural +5 before enchantments. Thats +21 to accuracy with no spell buffs and no enhantments and there is a superb club in game +12. Total +33 to accuracy in act 3. And then you have all your priestly spells. And there is an open class herald shield just like the Paladin but you dont get it until you take care of the dragon.

 

I rather have the front line fighter that I can set and forget. And if I need a front line support member who I actively have to manage I rather bring the Priest for all the Spells.

 

1. It works both ways. Paladin doesn't need to put points into Resolve, because he has faith&conviction.

2. Priest starts 5 deflection lower than a Paladin and doesn't get Faith&Conviction. You need to cast some spells to break even. Priest's Accuracy is 10 points lower, not counting Zealous Focus which is instant. If you take a priest talent for +10 Accuracy, you are merely breaking even, with a paladin who doesn't have aura.

 

When you build a Fighter as a harmless tank, you're wasting a class with highest natural Accuracy and talents like Armored Grace.

[taek]

I'd really like the devs to look at the aura range. 

 

 

The fire godlike (far left) paladin's aura doesn't reach the moon godlike on the far right.

 

If the buffs were almighty powerful perhaps they want the extra restriction that the party must cluster around the paladin, but for 6 accuracy or a few DR that's simply not worth it. In many fights my paladin's aura ends up only affecting herself.

 

 

[b0rsuk]

So ? You put the paladin in the middle. Problem solved. Paladin aura is not for cowardly classes who stay back.

 

-------------------------

 

If you don't mind getting a boring passive character, Righteous Soul boosts your resistance to Charmed, Dominated, Frightened, Terrified, Poisoned and Diseased. Pretty good.

Edited April 25, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Raven Darkholme]

You can get way more reach though.

When i had my pala in a group with maxed IN it reched 4 meters, also theres boots who enlarge the aura.

[Longknife]

So ?

 

Why do people still try and insist the Paladin doesn't suck ****?

 

"You can get more reach though."

 

Paladin is already highly demanding on stat points. It's hardly a consolation that a max int Paladin could hit that Moon Godlike just because it essentially means moving a good amount of stats to INT all for the benefit of 6 accuracy. That's balls.

 

Likewise, putting the Paladin class "in the middle" is not that simple. AKA, if you mean between the tanks and the casters, then you specifically need to position the paladin every fight and they will not be a front line tank at all, whereas if you mean just have everyone cluster the paladin, wtf dude half your guys will get themselves killed doing that.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

So ?

 

Why do people still try and insist the Paladin doesn't suck ****?

 

 

Because they don't?

[b0rsuk]

No, no, no. You don't understand. Casters and ranged characters don't deserve the paladin Aura, unless you build a ranged paladin.. Paladin is clearly designed as a close support. It's the A10 of Pillars of Eternity. For emotional support from afar, you have Priest. You could make paladin aura bigger, but that would just make it like other classes, and I don't want that. If you still want bigger auras, Chanters have them.

 

Paladin auras do look bad compared to chanters. Chanters get ridiculous number of abilities and customization potential, just like the other pet class - Cipher. I wouldn't object to having all 3 auras gained automatically at level3 of Paladin, so he always has something to choose from. They are not that powerful that it would make everyone want a paladin.

 

I think Paladin base design is solid, and they have nice abilities. Just not all of them. Buff the remaining ones.

Edited April 25, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Crucis]

No, no, no. You don't understand. Casters and ranged characters don't deserve the paladin Aura, unless you build a ranged paladin.. Paladin is clearly designed as a close support. It's the A10 of Pillars of Eternity. For emotional support from afar, you have Priest. You could make paladin aura bigger, but that would just make it like other classes, and I don't want that. If you still want bigger auras, Chanters have them.

 

Paladin auras do look bad compared to chanters. Chanters get ridiculous number of abilities and customization potential, just like the other pet class - Cipher. I wouldn't object to having all 3 auras gained automatically at level3 of Paladin, so he always has something to choose from. They are not that powerful that it would make everyone want a paladin.

 

I think Paladin base design is solid, and they have nice abilities. Just not all of them. Buff the remaining ones.

 

I get your point about the size of the the pally's aura.  OTOH, the aura shouldn't be so small that you feel like you have to be crawling up the pally's back to be inside the aura.  There should be a happy medium so that your front liners don't have to feel bunched up as tight as sardines in a can to get the effect of the pally aura.

[MoxyWoo]

Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.

 

I respecced my paladin without it to see what the other aura radius was... If I wanted to make a class that selfishly buffed themselves, I would've made a wizard who at least brought the CC and can get the same deflection/health/higher DR on demand as needed.  Easier fights, the aura is unnecessary, in hard fights it only saves a priest or chanter one cast (least for Zealous Endurance/Charge).

 

Most people aren't arguing the Paladin is not "bad" but they're definitely not "good" in the current meta.  It basically boils down to:  

 

• Paladins don't "suck" but their abilities bring very little to want them in a group.
• They need bug fixes and stacking.
• Aura ranges are unreasonably small.
• Many of the Order specific talents are lame due to limited use or impact on the group.
• Faith and conviction bonuses for NPCs

In a bigger sense, the paladin has nothing to do but "tank" hence why it does seem decent at the role  But I get the feeling despite the faith and conviction bonus on my wizard play through, that the easy fights dont need it, and the harder fights its all about buffs or food or prep anyway, so the paladin is kind of just there.

Edited April 25, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[MadDemiurg]

Auras need to be bigger (zealous charge is 5m right now, others are 2.5. Let them all be 5) and count as talents rather than spells so they would stack with buffs. +6 accuracy or +3 DT is hardly gamebreaking (chanter has +25% dmg). Maybe make increased range a talent though, so you can chose if you want to specialize in wider area support.

 

The only area paladins do not suck in atm is soaking up damage, but they still don't hold the line as well as fighters because of fewer engage slots (unless you burn a talent and pick a guarding weapon). If they had decent support though engage could be left as is, to differentiate the classes.

 

 

Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.

 

I respecced my paladin without it to see what the other aura radius was... If I wanted to make a class that selfishly buffed themselves, I would've made a wizard who at least brought the CC and can get the same deflection/health/higher DR on demand as needed.  Easier fights, the aura is unnecessary, in hard fights it only saves a priest or chanter one cast (least for Zealous Endurance/Charge).

 

Most people aren't arguing the Paladin is not "bad" but they're definitely not "good" in the current meta.  It basically boils down to:  

 

• Paladins don't "suck" but their abilities bring very little to want them in a group.
• They need bug fixes and stacking.
• Aura ranges are unreasonably small.
• Many of the Order specific talents are lame.
• Faith and conviction bonuses for NPCs

In a bigger sense, the paladin has nothing to do but "tank" hence why it does seem decent at the role  But I get the feeling despite the faith and conviction bonus on my wizard play through, that the easy fights dont need it, and the harder fights its all about buffs or food or prep anyway, so the paladin is kind of just there.

 

 

I've never encountered the zealous focus bug, it has its crappy 2.5m range in my game. it's probably much better if your paladin bugged out but I wasn't lucky enough :D.

Edited April 25, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MoxyWoo]

I get the feeling that to make the chanter wanted in a group, the paladin design was to not be as good for their passive auras in both distance and effect.

 

To not make them tank as well as a fighter, engagement was limited as well as CC abilities.

 

To make them not as good as a priest, they were given nonstacking auras.

 

Long story short... it made the class super watered down and the only reason they became good at tanking was because as many discover if your tanks are far enough away, engagement itself is sort of meaningless.  The only Order talent that seems worth it is Dracozzi because of earlier retaliation for the 'hard' part of the game and later on buffing accuracy.  On paper it seems they were going to turn out fine, being the 'magic' defense tank with some support to fill gaps, but realistically, due to the bugs or stacking issues or small radius, they're just... not bad, nor good... just not worth a party slot after act 1.

Edited April 25, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Kaigen42]

 

Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.

 

I've never encountered the zealous focus bug, it has it's crappy 2.5m range in my game. it's probably much better if your paladin bugged out but I wasn't lucky enough :D.

 

Might be a bug with auras in general, I had a run where I was taking along a (respecced) Pallegina along with my Paladin for conversation, and both of their auras ended up bugged into hitting the entire party regardless of distance.

[b0rsuk]

I get your point about the size of the the pally's aura.  OTOH, the aura shouldn't be so small that you feel like you have to be crawling up the pally's back to be inside the aura.  There should be a happy medium so that your front liners don't have to feel bunched up as tight as sardines in a can to get the effect of the pally aura.

 

 

But see what it does to your engagements ! It kind of forces you to fight honorably and not do too much flanking. Face enemies head on, don't run into their caster line.That's the paladin way.

 

...unless you use Zealous Charge + Swift chant ).

[Elerond]

Paladin's end game in my opinion could benefit from boost, early game they are one of the strongest classes in my opinion. They can take punch, they can give punch and their auras give nice bonuses. In end game they can take punch, they still can give punch, but not as fine as in early game, their auras are still good, but they are far from what other support classes offer and their exhortations are low in numbers and not necessary strong enough.

 

Like for example Chanter gets The Silver Knights' Shields Broke Both Arrow and Blade in level 9, it gives +10 deflection to everybody in the chant area, Paladin gets Reinforcing Exhortation, which is single target 2x per encounter +15 deflection buff for 20 seconds. Paladin can give bonus bit faster than what chanter can, but chanter's bonus comes from passive aura that gives bonus to themselves also, where paladin's comes from active ability that can't be used to themselves. So in my opinion paladin's exhortation should be much stronger than Chanter's phrase, like for example it should give +20 or even +30 to deflection (because then it would give better bonus than priest's Shields for the Faithful which is friendly AoE that give +25 deflection for 30 seconds, which priest get their hands on on level 9, although they can cast in only twice per rest, but as mentioned it is AoE) for 30 to 60 seconds.

 

I also think that Hastening Exhortation should be once per encounter ability, instead of 3 per rest as it now, because it is 11th level ability, so even though 1.2x attack speed is quite good it isn't that powerful anymore in that level especially when it is single target ability.

 

I also think that paladins should get 10th or 12th level talent option that gives them ability have two aura's at same time.

 

And I think that they should get couple more exhortations where they can choose from so that they get bit more flexibility in how they can support party.

[Longknife]

No, no, no. You don't understand. Casters and ranged characters don't deserve the paladin Aura, unless you build a ranged paladin.. Paladin is clearly designed as a close support. It's the A10 of Pillars of Eternity. For emotional support from afar, you have Priest. You could make paladin aura bigger, but that would just make it like other classes, and I don't want that. If you still want bigger auras, Chanters have them.

 

Paladin auras do look bad compared to chanters. Chanters get ridiculous number of abilities and customization potential, just like the other pet class - Cipher. I wouldn't object to having all 3 auras gained automatically at level3 of Paladin, so he always has something to choose from. They are not that powerful that it would make everyone want a paladin.

 

I think Paladin base design is solid, and they have nice abilities. Just not all of them. Buff the remaining ones.

 

 

Why would casters not "deserve" Paladin aura?

[MadDemiurg]

I get the feeling that to make the chanter wanted in a group, the paladin design was to not be as good for their passive auras in both distance and effect.

 

To not make them tank as well as a fighter, engagement was limited as well as CC abilities.

 

To make them not as good as a priest, they were given nonstacking auras.

 

Long story short... it made the class super watered down and the only reason they became good at tanking was because as many discover if your tanks are far enough away, engagement itself is sort of meaningless.  The only Order talent that seems worth it is Dracozzi because of earlier retaliation for the 'hard' part of the game and later on buffing accuracy.  On paper it seems they were going to turn out fine, being the 'magic' defense tank with some support to fill gaps, but realistically, due to the bugs or stacking issues or small radius, they're just... not bad, nor good... just not worth a party slot after act 1.

I like the other Darcozzi talent - +10 accuracy on Liberating exhortation that stacks (yay!) with spells. It is especially nice for dragon fights where it both adds +10 acc and suppresses Terrify aura, effectively granting 30 accuracy in 1 action. Granted, priest can cast suppress affliction anyway, but he can open up with devotions of the faithful for a change. Tossing that on your casters ensures that your CCs will land and that usually means a win. But one order specific talent hardly makes paladins good support in general (And I would never trade priest for a paladin, fighter is the only one who can be traded).

 

Paladin's end game in my opinion could benefit from boost, early game they are one of the strongest classes in my opinion. They can take punch, they can give punch and their auras give nice bonuses. In end game they can take punch, they still can give punch, but not as fine as in early game, their auras are still good, but they are far from what other support classes offer and their exhortations are low in numbers and not necessary strong enough.

 

Like for example Chanter gets The Silver Knights' Shields Broke Both Arrow and Blade in level 9, it gives +10 deflection to everybody in the chant area, Paladin gets Reinforcing Exhortation, which is single target 2x per encounter +15 deflection buff for 20 seconds. Paladin can give bonus bit faster than what chanter can, but chanter's bonus comes from passive aura that gives bonus to themselves also, where paladin's comes from active ability that can't be used to themselves. So in my opinion paladin's exhortation should be much stronger than Chanter's phrase, like for example it should give +20 or even +30 to deflection (because then it would give better bonus than priest's Shields for the Faithful which is friendly AoE that give +25 deflection for 30 seconds, which priest get their hands on on level 9, although they can cast in only twice per rest, but as mentioned it is AoE) for 30 to 60 seconds.

 

I also think that Hastening Exhortation should be once per encounter ability, instead of 3 per rest as it now, because it is 11th level ability, so even though 1.2x attack speed is quite good it isn't that powerful anymore in that level especially when it is single target ability.

 

I also think that paladins should get 10th or 12th level talent option that gives them ability have two aura's at same time.

 

And I think that they should get couple more exhortations where they can choose from so that they get bit more flexibility in how they can support party.

 

Earlygame pallys are indeed quite good, since when your priest has like 5 spells per rest auras do not look bad at all. Their support doesn't scale into the lategame at all though (while their tankyness does quite admirably well). As for "packing a punch" I'm having hard time naming a class with lower damage potential than paladin (but probably that's ok).